Words and Action: The essential difference between Obama and Clinton

Posted February 23, 2008 | 10:59 AM (EST)



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The Democratic Presidential Debate on February 21 finally clarified the essential difference between Senators Clinton and Obama. First, they are similar on matters of policy - domestic and foreign. The differences between them, as in mandatory health insurance, are minimal. Even regarding Iraq, despite Obama having been against the invasion from the start, their approaches to troop withdrawal are virtually indistinguishable.

So what is this essential difference? It is one between a person who would once have been called a "cold-war liberal" and someone who mostly grew up post cold-war era. It is the difference between a baby boomer who had to "duck-and-cover" in anticipation of a Soviet nuclear attack and a post-boomer who grew up away from an America that had entered into treaties and had clearly become the preeminent world power.

While cold-war liberals were great on domestic policy - pro union, pro education, pro government protection of individual rights and freedoms - they were intimidated by McCarthy-ism: they had to prove that they were as militantly anti-communist as the next guy. They shared fears of Russian expansion (after all it was liberal Democrats who got us into the disastrous Vietnam war). Senator Clinton is either deeply scarred by that experience or she has to prove that she is as tough the modern-day anti-terrorist Republicans.

From her votes on Iraq and then on Iran - essentially giving Bush free rein to wage war yet a second time - Clinton seems to have embraced entirely the Republican saber-rattling posture. This makes her more like Senator McCain than like Senator Obama when it comes to using diplomacy. Her response to the opening question about whether she would talk to Raul Castro made it clear: she wants our adversaries to prove to us that they want to change before talking to them. This is cold-war liberalism morphed into modern day neo-con thinking replete with tough talk preceding genuine dialogue.

Senator Obama is not similarly crippled. He believes that we can talk to people with whom we disagree and that we can change our own diplomatic approach without insisting that our adversaries change first. Obama attracts young people who don't relate to all the posturing and tough talk. Even though they all felt the tragedy of 9/11, they think knee-jerk bombing of Iraq isn't the answer. Others who are older are attracted to Obama because they are sick not only of living in fear but also of living inside a unilateral and ultimately a superior approach to other nations. They think that talking allows space for thinking - on both sides. This is something that is refreshingly appealing about Mr. Obama.

Finally, this fundamental difference about whether people have to prove themselves before we listen to them has serious consequences for domestic policy as well. Although both Clinton and Obama are deeply concerned about the health and wellbeing of all Americans, one of them will be more open to listening to their needs than the other. There is no question that either Democrat would be better that George W Bush OR John McCain, not just domestically but about troop withdrawal from Iraq. But I think that the "change" Obama wants is a fundamental change in attitude, an openness that transcends specific policies and squabbles about rhetoric.

Debate excerpts about whether or not they would meet with Raul Castro get to the heart of the matter:

CLINTON:I would not meet with him until there was evidence that change was happening because I think it's important that they demonstrate clearly that they are committed to change the direction.
Then I think, you know, something like diplomatic encounters and negotiations over specifics could take place.
But we've had this conversation before, Senator Obama and myself, and I believe that we should have full diplomatic engagement, where appropriate. But a presidential visit should not be offered and given without some evidence that it will demonstrate the kind of progress that is in our interest and, in this case, in the interest of the Cuban people.

OBAMA: I would meet without preconditions, although Senator Clinton is right that there has to be preparation. It is very important for us to make sure that there was an agenda and on that agenda was human rights, releasing of political prisoners, opening up the press. And that preparation might take some time.
But I do think that it is important for the United States not just to talk to its friends but also to talk to its enemies. In fact, that's where diplomacy makes the biggest difference.

CLINTON: But there has been this difference between us over when and whether the president should offer a meeting without preconditions with those with whom we do not have diplomatic relations, and it should be part of a process. But I don't think it should be offered in the beginning because I think that undermines the capacity for us to actually take the measure of somebody like Raul Castro or Ahmadinejad and others.

OBAMA: Because the problem isn't -- is if we think that meeting with the president is a privilege that has to be earned, I think that reinforces the sense that we stand above the rest of the world at this point in time, and I think that it's important for us, in undoing the damage that has been done over the last seven years, for the president to be willing to take that extra step. That's the kind of step that I would like to take as president of the United States.


 
 

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- alyceclover See Profile I'm a Fan of alyceclover permalink

Trevor1: You do know about Prescott Bush's relationship with Hitler, right? Perhaps if the first Bush had not been helping finance Hitler's rise to power we could have avoided that war. Perhaps, too our government should not have helped Saddam take over Iraq. Perhaps we should not have been financing weapons for other countries, nor training terrorists in our military schools right here in the USA.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 02/25/2008
- alyceclover See Profile I'm a Fan of alyceclover permalink

Excellent observation; Hillary's actions had me thinking about Khrushchev taking off his shoe, pounding it on the table: nyet, nyet, nyet. She is too scared to speak to leaders of other countries~that is what my president is supposed to be doing on my behalf,eh, I sure can not meet up with them anytime soon. Yet she will get up in front of a camera with shaking fury shouting: Shame on you Barack Obama. There are her actions and her words on display for the world to see. She will command as much respect as Khrushchev did and incite as much fear of the insane lady. Nothing worse than an angry child in an adults body. Fine for other countries, but not for me. I do no not to fear my President.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:20 PM on 02/25/2008
- onab See Profile I'm a Fan of onab permalink

With respect to the portion of Thursday's debate between the two democratic candidates on Cuba, the participants outlined different timetables and preconditions for meeting with leaders of staunch adversaries such as Cuba, which may have a ripe moment in Castro"s semi-exit.

The candidates would approach the prelude to negotiations differently. Clinton seems prepared to set benchmarks. That is, steps leaders of a country must take to essentially be "rewarded" (the carrot) with diplomatic initiatives linked to their good behavior. Obama wouldn"t necessarily recognize that ripe moment and would set only a few preconditions, such as human rights, opening the press and releasing [political] prisoners, perhaps unilaterally making his move.

It appears there are gradations in "preventive/preemptive" behaviors. A kind of "soft" preemption is the closest point on the scale: our overture requires very little positive signal from the target.

"Hard" preemption is the furthest point on the scale, namely, an invasion or other slightly less "invasive" act.

The middle grades are varying degrees of meeting some level of expectations on our part. While Obama is near a soft preemption, Clinton is closer to a harder preemption.

The candidates clearly differ on how far, or even whether, adversaries must open their systems to be rewarded with negotiations. The current administration has slid down the continuum for the most part, deciding perhaps that a middle preemption, with our troops hamstrung in Iraq, is the safest course.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:11 PM on 02/24/2008
- joanndarc See Profile I'm a Fan of joanndarc permalink

To more on Agressive American Ignorance I'd advise to read "Absolute Friends" by John le Carre'.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:07 AM on 02/24/2008
- AnneMarieVictoria See Profile I'm a Fan of AnneMarieVictoria permalink

Clinton's comments will be useful to line my cat's litter box, that's about all it's worth. If the quasi NY senator would run her own campaign as opposed to attacking her opponent's, I could perhaps be bothered to listen. But her acts of desperation are not worth my attention or support. Besides, if she can't manage her campaign expenses, explain to me how she can manage a federal budget. Pizza Hut vouchers on my birthday are not what I'd like to shell out my tax dollars for.

Annemarie Victoria now for Barack

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:36 AM on 02/24/2008
- Mediacurmudgeon See Profile I'm a Fan of Mediacurmudgeon permalink

Brilliant anaylsis -- first I've seen about the importance of the generation gap. I'm also pleased to see that you didn't suggest the differences were about gender or race, which means you probably thought these two elements were totally unimportant. Good for you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:09 AM on 02/24/2008
- skycontrol See Profile I'm a Fan of skycontrol permalink

Hey out there!

Let's say a middle-aged man dropped his suitcase while running across an intersection. And out popped sex magazines and paraphernalia of every description.

How many Americans would be shocked to discover that the man was Bill Clinton?

I am tired of the tawdry, the soap opera and the personal issues that are part of the Hillary and "Bill in a China Shop" show.

Remember when certain sexual acts were not acceptable subjects when talking to strangers?

Remember when alone actually meant alone?

The trashing of the English language, the increasing coarseness of public discourse are all part of the Billary legacy.

When I see Barack and Michelle together, the love and respect is palpable.

When I see Hillary and "Bill in the China Shop" together I really do not know what I am seeing - what is palpable is the feeling of revulsion.

Please God or whoever is out there, deliver us from the Clintons, once and for all!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 AM on 02/24/2008
- alyceclover See Profile I'm a Fan of alyceclover permalink

RichLiberal: says it all: Rich. What do you know about people who can not afford to buy health insurance? Garnish wages of those temp agency workers who were outsourced or downsized out of jobs now competing with High School graduates for the honor of flipping burgers at McDonalds for minimum wage? Of course, that excludes where I live. If you do not speak Spanish you are told, by McDonald's in a predominately English speaking neighborhood: Do Not Apply.

ClintonSpeak seems all Clinton's supporters are capable of; she lies, they repeat it. Obama says wisely: the time to think of how we will get is before we go in. There were no WMD; that was a Bush/Cheney ruse to rouse support for their illegal invasion (violated UN Charter, making us guilty of 'war of aggression') of Iraq. Obama has a brain he uses to think. He does not react and act like an hysterical or deranged mad person: Shame on you!? She has been sending out mailers too. Difference? Hers have lies in them. Hope Obama brings a NH one along to hold up at the Ohio debate. She has also plagiarized, among others, Saturday Night Live, her husband and Obama's words.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:48 PM on 02/25/2008
- RichLiberal See Profile I'm a Fan of RichLiberal permalink

This is just more misleading Obamaspeak.

The MSM has given Obama a pass on almost everything. Foreign policy is no exception.

Obama's 2 big criticisms of Hillary are the Iraq vote and the Kyl/Lieberman Iran vote.

Where was Obama on the Iraq vote? In Chicago, he was not a Senator yet. So, he can conveniently criticize from the sidelines.

Iran vote? Again he criticizes Hillary. Where was he? Too busy setting up his campaign in NH for Kyl/Lieberman: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/11/3/15518/8255
The above cnn story says he has explaining to do.
This story says he actually supported his buddy Lieberman designating Iran terrorist:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2007/10/the-obama-disse.html

Obama's as phony as a 3 dollar bill (they used to say that about Nixon, now we have another).

Obama ducks votes to avoid a record to criticize. He ducked votes on partial birth abortion with the chicken yellow present button in Illinois legislature. (see user comments to that abc blog).
Hillary voted against pba and took the heat.

Bottom line: this Huffpo article is phony and is based on false pretenses. Obama doesn't have a new way of thinking, he just has a new way to slip accountability.

Hillary's got guts. Obama ducks.

Hope and change: quack quack!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 PM on 02/23/2008
- Kane See Profile I'm a Fan of Kane permalink

As a Clinton supporter, aren't you a bit concerned about the 11 straight losses? And doesn't it frustrate you to know that last week Clinton said that her campaign is trying to understand the Texas primary system, all the while Obama has a grassroots organization througout the state? And aren't you a little worried that Obama has four offices in Vermont while Clinton had none as late as five days ago? And doesn't it faze you at all that in Pennsylvania the Clinton campaign couldn't file a complete slate of delegates by even an extended ballot deadline? And doesn't it give you pause to learn that the Clinton campaign is spending more than it's bringing in? And aren't you a bit concerned that Obama and his campaign have outhustled and outworked and outgained and outshined the inevitable Ms Clinton? And aren't you somewhat embarrassed that Ms Clinton, with all of her experience was not ready on day one to win this campaign?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 AM on 02/24/2008
- marcusdean See Profile I'm a Fan of marcusdean permalink

Do you pay attention to what you yourself are saying? What do you mean Obama cannot criticize Hillary's war vote? He, I and anyone else can. We elect our officials to make tough decisions, and to make the right choice in these tough spots. If they do not, then we replace them. Plain and simple.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:04 AM on 02/24/2008
- justmeinAz See Profile I'm a Fan of justmeinAz permalink

Look it up sometime - voting present is a vote of no, while signaling that you're not opposed to the idea of the law, but had a problem with something within it. It means the law could be fixed in some way to earn a yes vote. This idea that voting present is refusing to take a stand on the legislation is idiotic, and has gone on far too long here. Don't trust me though, look it up for yourself, and be done with this moronic criticism.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 AM on 02/24/2008
- lungfish See Profile I'm a Fan of lungfish permalink

and where was Hillary for the telecom immunity vote? Running her campaign in Arlington. Too busy worrying about her election to represent the people of NY in a very important matter... always long on campaigning and short on principles.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 AM on 02/24/2008
- Mormondude See Profile I'm a Fan of Mormondude permalink

Ahmedinejad thinks the US should apologize to Iran. Should Obama 'change tactics' in our foreign policy that much? Should he apologize to Hitler Jr?

Instead of giving crackpots like Ahmedinejad photo-ops with our Commander in Chief, I would hope that the leader of our country would respond with something substantive that can unify the world against the threats posed by a nuclear Iran.

How about if Obama demands that Ahmedinejad apologizes for constantly threatening Israel with destruction? How about if he demand an apology on behalf of the tens of millions of people that died in World War 2 to stop Hitler and the Holocaust that Jr denies. How about if he demand an apology for Iran forcing non-Muslims to be second class citizens in their own country? How about if he demand an apology for Iran chanting 'Death to America' in their legislature?

We don't need Obama to go abroad and chastise his own country while whitewashing the real and substantive security and human rights abuses being perpetrated by our self-avowed enemies.

Sure, it may be popular to hate America around the world, but we don't need Obama and/or his wife hating on us whenever he goes abroad, just to try to 'change the tone'.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 PM on 02/23/2008
- justmeinAz See Profile I'm a Fan of justmeinAz permalink

how about if he doesn't try to change the whole f**kin' world to suit our liking, and sticks to fixing our own broke country? That would be a nice change of pace for me.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 AM on 02/24/2008
- teahead See Profile I'm a Fan of teahead permalink

Hillary == Margaret Thatcher wanna-be.

Hillary == Bush-lite.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 PM on 02/23/2008
- Simonfish See Profile I'm a Fan of Simonfish permalink

Naive, naive, naive,
who are we to believe?
Poor dumb Frank beguiles,
I'm rolling in the aisle.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:01 PM on 02/23/2008
- NAMI See Profile I'm a Fan of NAMI permalink

Mr Justin Frank
This is a brilliant diagnosis!!!
thank you.
AMERICA WILL SHINE as soon as the ATTITUDE here changes.
IT HAS BEEN SAID THAT : attitude is a SMALL thing that makes a BIG DIFFERENCE

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 PM on 02/23/2008
- gun See Profile I'm a Fan of gun permalink

it's always nice to see a shrink that get's it

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 PM on 02/23/2008
- wmbear See Profile I'm a Fan of wmbear permalink

AND EXCEPT FOR THE "K"...

All the letters in Barak Obama's first and last names are contained in the name "Abraham Lincoln." (And the "c" in "Lincoln" is sounded as a "k".)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:48 PM on 02/23/2008
- yowza1 See Profile I'm a Fan of yowza1 permalink

Good point Mr Frank - about the baby boomer mindset vis a vis Mccarthyism. That is a canard that the country has to get over, that any sort of goodwill shown toward potential enemies is dangerous and "weak". That appeasement thing with Hitler & Chamberlain was a unique event, did not necessarily set a precedent for all future dealings between world powers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:53 PM on 02/23/2008
- wmbear See Profile I'm a Fan of wmbear permalink

MORE EVIDENCE THAT OBAMA IS THE AVATAR OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN...

An anagram of "Barak Hussein Obama" is:

"Is Abraham -- bank on use."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:35 PM on 02/23/2008
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