Karin Kloosterman

Karin Kloosterman

Posted: December 29, 2008 05:41 PM

The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Is An Ancient Story

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"I heard the bombs are dropping again."

Yes, Dad. They are. Israel's been quiet for a long time, I told him from my house in Jaffa. I was testing the new line I had installed, and called Canada to see if it worked. My mom, as usual, was screaming her head off about something. I told him to go into another room to get some peace.

Ah peace. I'd been living in Israel now for almost a decade, and have survived biological warfare threats from Saddam Hussein, Intifada #2, countless terror attacks targeting Israeli civilians, and the war with Lebanon. For the last 2 years rockets have been raining down on Israel, and now, the latest -- Israel has decided to fight back against the Hamas. Why did the Israelis wait so long?

Normally, I don't bother explaining my feelings -- or the news -- to my parents. They see the news on TV, or a version of it, and now realizing that I'm in Israel to stay, know they can't convince me to return to their sleepy town north of Toronto.

But today, I feel pissed off. I wanted to tell my dad about how I really feel about the Palestinians. I'd been reading this and that blogger, writing from New York, writing from some boring town in the Midwest, writing from some sort of holier-than-thou position about Israel's use of excessive force. About Shimon Peres' "smooth talking" ways to fulfill his bigger mission: to kick all the Palestinians into the Sea. About how the evil "Zionists" are killing babies, and women, on purpose when I know all the hate that people are writing about Israel, my dear nation full with people who I love and admire, is sending another message.

The real message is "We hate the Jews." Hating Israel, I think, is just a mutated form of anti-Semitism, and we all know where that led.

Anti-Semitism, though hard to understand, is easier for me to defend. I already know there are people in the world, who for no reason that I can understand, have a deep, dark hatred for the Jews. I think my late uncle was one of them. My mom, who I love dearly, believes that Jews "didn't see the light of Christ." My friends in university used to whisper about how so-and-so is dating a Jewess (shame, shame: guess how his parents will react!), or how Daddy's country club in Toronto, doesn't let in Jews, or blacks, for that matter. These things were safe to talk about with me. I was the perfect ally in perfect disguise: blond hair, blue eyes.

Now I am one of the others. A Jew. I've made Israel my life. It's the place where my soul feels, more than anywhere, at home. For the better, and the worse, I am here to stay. My mother is Catholic and, well, she's cut the metaphorical apron strings -- demonstrating to me passionately with a real apron and scissors how it's done, but has since sewed them back on after she visited Israel for the first time last November. Something here that she saw -- or felt -- changed her mind.

My dad, who reacts to my newfound Judaism as though I've amputated a perfectly healthy leg, cannot yet understand why I am here. He was born in Holland, during the Second World War. He knows what the Nazis did to the Jews, and can't imagine why I, an honor-roll-golden-child-from-Canada-with-all-the-opportunities-in-the-world, would ever want to put myself at such a "disadvantage."

He's worried. "You know it could happen again, the Holocaust," he said to me once. It sent shivers up my back.

But we're back to today, and he's on the phone, and there is some sort of war going on. Rockets fall on Gaza. Rockets fall on Israel. Babies. Bodies. We need medicine, calls out a Palestinian doctor. Ambulance sirens. Code red. Everything's become a blur. I want to curl up in a ball, and retreat to the safeness of Canada, to the nest.

If Israel wasn't here, the Islamic fundamentalists would be on your doorstep, Dad, I tell him. Israel is fighting your war. I ad-lib some other bla bla, for effect. But I'm not in the mood to convince him, even though he's listening. And I wish I had the perfect words to solve all the shit that's going on here. But the fight is so much bigger than me. It's bigger than the State of Israel. It's definitely bigger than the millions of Jews around the world, and a few million Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank. It's bigger than India and Pakistan, Sudan and -- I hazard to guess -- it's even bigger than the billions of people who are breathing, eating, crapping, singing, making love, fighting, and sleeping, right now on earth.

I think that this fight, which has reared its head in Israel, spans decades, and generations. It's the stuff that cowboy movies are made from. But in this ancient fight, the forces of good and evil don't wear Stetsons, Stars of David, or fly green flags while popping bullets into the air from the back of a Subaru. That's what makes it so complicated. It goes back to the beginning of time, and it's connected to God.

We are the forces of good and evil, each and every one of us. That's what Israel has taught me. Hug your kid, tell someone you love them. Give encouragement to those who are weaker than you. It's easy to sing a John Lennon song and say give peace a chance. The hard part is looking inward. To fight the conflict in the Middle East, we need to start with one person -- ourselves.

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"I heard the bombs are dropping again." Yes, Dad. They are. Israel's been quiet for a long time, I told him from my house in Jaffa. I was testing the new line I had installed, and called Canada to s...
"I heard the bombs are dropping again." Yes, Dad. They are. Israel's been quiet for a long time, I told him from my house in Jaffa. I was testing the new line I had installed, and called Canada to s...
 
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- EinChicago I'm a Fan of EinChicago 33 fans permalink

"He's worried. "You know it could happen again, the Holocaust," he said to me once. It sent shivers up my back. "

One could argue, given Gaza, it is already happening again. Just with the roles somewhat reversed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 PM on 01/18/2009
- EinChicago I'm a Fan of EinChicago 33 fans permalink

Baloney. At best it's a decades old conflict as Isreal is only a few decades old.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:26 AM on 01/18/2009


The idea of migration to escape persecution and to reestablish oneself is central to Prophet Muhammad’s life and to the experience of the early Muslim community. I wish Muslim leaders open their boarders and let the Palestinians escape the terror they are living in. Review and comment on the short article Medina2009 at http://medina2009.blogspot.com

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:15 AM on 01/06/2009

Fellow Commenters: Please read what Israel is fighting. Following are excerpts from a public address before a large audience of men, delivered by Jordanian MP Muhammad Abd Al-Qader, aired on Al-Jazeera TV on December 28th. The translation is from memritv.org, a great source to see the true picture of extreme Islam.
"Muhammad Abd Al-Qader: Yes, [Jihad] is a personal duty, not a collective one. A wife should set out on Jihad even without her husband's permission, a child should set out even without his father's permission, and a slave.
The borders must be broken through, this blood must be shed, along with the blood of your brothers, on the land of Gaza and Palestine, while fighting and killing the Jews.
Muhammad Abd Al-Qader: Oh men, do you not desire Paradise?
Crowd: Of course.
Muhammad Abd Al-Qader: If you mean what you say, seek a way to martyrdom and Jihad. No leader, official, organization, political party, or group can prevent you from breaking through the borders and fighting the Jews. "

Here it is in black and white: the call to Jihad against the Jews. Is this what the anti-Israel comments agree with? How should Israel defend itself against this blatant call to go kill Jews?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:03 PM on 01/01/2009
- Libarchist I'm a Fan of Libarchist 6 fans permalink
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I agree; I am a pacifist Catholic Jew, and when i listen to a so called pacifist radio station in the United States, WBAI, supposedly based on pacifistic principles, they say the same thing, in their anti-Israel propaganda, and they are all Obama supporters.

Unfortunately, anti-Semitism will increase with Obama as president, and as I see it, the Israelis should evict everyone from the West Bank and Gaza, because many people that work for Obama would not hesitate, to send Hamss or whatever name they change their name too, dangerous weapons stolen form US military stockpiles.

I have a personal concern why I want peace, because--one day I may have to move to Israel -- as a a half Jew, so ideally the conflict would be resolved non-violently with the Arab nations, before I moved there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:46 AM on 01/03/2009
- chaos4700 I'm a Fan of chaos4700 85 fans permalink
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You're no pacifist and you're no liberal. And as a half-Catholic, you should be totally ashamed of yourself for endorsing the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Israel is the world's single biggest threat to world peace, and their leaders need to be taken up before the Hague just like Slobadan Milosevic was.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:30 AM on 01/05/2009
- ErikW65 I'm a Fan of ErikW65 11 fans permalink

I feel sorry for anyone under threat of attack by missiles, but can someone please explain to me why it is that Isra_el initially blockaded G_aza...?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:07 AM on 12/31/2008
- ema I'm a Fan of ema 23 fans permalink
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Karin,

I am a Jew.

And I am appalled by what Israel is doing.This is no justification for massive air strikes on heavily populated areas beyond the threat of immediate annihilation. (And let's face it, Karin, this is not that.)

As for your arguments:

While I am not blind to the fact that this is and has been antisemitism in this world, condemning Israel is not always a veiled hatred of the Jews. While some critics of Israel certainly are Jew haters, the vast majority are people like me who are outraged by Israel's lack of the most basic human morality. And if you and your dad are so worried about a second holocaust, I advise you to notice that Israel's actions only serve to increase antisemitism.

Likewise, you are incredibly deluded if you think that you are fighting the good fight against Islamic extremism. Like antisemitism, radical Islam is fueled by Israel's atrocities and Western support for them. These actions by Israel have not made you or us (blogging from the comfort of our American living rooms) any safer. Au contraire.

Also this battle is neither ancient nor about God. It is approximately 100 years old and coincides with the birth of modern Zionism. And it is about land, plain and simple.

Lastly, Karin, what makes a Jew uniquely a Jew is not some birthright claim to a holy land, it is an indelible sense of morality and justice. When we lose that, we have lost everything.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:47 AM on 12/31/2008
- Okay I'm a Fan of Okay permalink

I'm not sure if you meant to have the effect or not but the "indelible sense of morality and justice" statement applied "uniquely" (i.e. exclusively) to being a Jew....Is quite arrogant. I support the Israelis in their efforts to secure a nation. That support is based on circumstances more extensive than Jew or Muslim. I'm thinking you may have stumbled unintentionally when trying to identify what makes a Jew a "Jew"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 AM on 12/31/2008
- ema I'm a Fan of ema 23 fans permalink
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Yeah, I phrased it poorly. I certainly never meant ONLY Jews are moral. That would be an absurd thing to say. I just meant that what being Jewish means to me is a connection to a culture which has a long tradition of morality and justice. That is the part of Jewish culture I identify with the most. And I do think it is a defining characteristic of Jewish culture. Though certainly not exclusive to it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:06 PM on 12/31/2008
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Word up, Ema. Well said.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:50 AM on 01/01/2009
- ema I'm a Fan of ema 23 fans permalink
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All the cool Jews are from Brooklyn. :)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:30 AM on 01/01/2009

Ema,

I believe you are very misinformed about the situation in Israel. Let me come and start shooting missles at you and your family and see if you would sit there and not fight back. Israel has the right to defend itself. When the missles from Gaza fired on Israel stop ONLY then should there be a cease fire. Enough is Enough!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:40 PM on 01/02/2009

An Israeli Writer Reported This Morning:
The Israeli Air Force struck the office of the Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh overnight. The office is used as a center for the planning, support and financing of terrorist activities against Israel. In addition, the office of the interior ministry, located in the same area, was also attacked.

The IAF attacked 35 additional targets, including: tunnels in the Rafah border area, weapon storage facilities, Hamas outposts and an armed rocket launcher.

Navy forces also attacked a number of targets in the Gaza Strip including: Hamas outposts, training camps, guarding vessels used by Hamas naval forces and launching posts from which rockets are fired at Israel.

By comparison, the Hamas government targeted:
• the city of Beersheva - hitting a school and a kindergarten
• the city of Ashkelon - hitting a stadium, several homes and buildings
• the city of Ofakim
• fields outside Ashdod and Sderot and several kibbutzim
Note that not one Hamas’ targets are military installations. Not one is a place where terrorist activities are conducted or planned. It’s all in the target, the intent.
So long as they INTEND to TARGET our cities, we will target their military infrastructure and their military leadership. We will cease...when they stop firing. We have tasted their ceasefire to the tune of 214 rockets. Now, now, they will feel our army. If the ground will shake from incoming rockets against our citizens, our army will continue to hunt the rocket launchers, the suppliers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 AM on 12/31/2008
- ErikW65 I'm a Fan of ErikW65 11 fans permalink

Naturally, since the missiles coming out of Gaz_a are not a response to any specific military attack on them, but rather a blockade imposed on them by the State of Is_rael, they are desperately lashing out at whatever target they can find like a cornered animal.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 AM on 12/31/2008
- bbrecht I'm a Fan of bbrecht 18 fans permalink
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They have killed numerous children and civilians. Open up the borders if this war is so humanitarian. Let foreign journalists have a look at what is going on in Gaza. Anything else is just propaganda.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 PM on 12/31/2008

There are a few clear choices;
A continued state of conflict.
A supportive co-operative two state solution.
An unsupportive hostile enforced two state solution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 12/30/2008
- GrainOSand I'm a Fan of GrainOSand 269 fans permalink
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Then it is as you say and any dissenting view is wrong, not in-vogue, out of step, or somehow ripe for ridicule.

Israel can be guilty as Palestine can be guilty and it is a hypnosis (deflection) some do not adhere to, this charge of anti-Semitism whenever Israel is on the wrong side of criticism. There are no Gods among us, if there are, let them come forth. Your perfect world comes at the cost of an ancient story, a recent history, and gallons upon gallons of human blood. It matters not (to anyone who truly looks inward) the nationality of the blood. Acceptance is the best outlook concerning the perpetual conflict. It is going to be what it is going to be and no blog post can change that. Several sitting American presidents have not been able to change that. It is good you have found the place you want to be in life. It is not so good for other people who are equally deserving, but who are under attack by ancient history. There is no Jew or Palestinian in this conflict for me. There is only a failure to end human suffering. Neither is above the other in my eyes. That is not a holier than thou assessment that is the assessment of one who has felt pain and therefore empathizes with the pained, no matter the nationality or lack thereof.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 PM on 12/30/2008
- GrainOSand I'm a Fan of GrainOSand 269 fans permalink
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“One of the mistakes, which some political analysts make, is to think their enemies should be our enemies.” -- Nelson Mandela

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM-Y-6U0TiE&feature=related

“The idea of Zionism, of a National Home for the Jews in Palestine, was put into practical politics by a Roman Catholic Norfolk squire, Sir Mark Sykes, who had specialised in the Near East and had much influence with Balfour. Balfour took it up with enthusiasm. Milner agreed with it at once: much might be gained, he considered, and nothing could be lost by it. The War Cabinet discussed it. Palestine would be an important strategical point in the British Empire: it would be well to develop it after the war. The only people with the money, energy, and the inclination to do that would be the Jews; both for the present crisis and for future needs Zionism ought to be backed to the full.”
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/armstrng/chap47.htm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:15 AM on 01/04/2009

this sooo...needed to be put forth again thank yo OgrainofSand.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:13 PM on 01/04/2009
- slarabee I'm a Fan of slarabee 26 fans permalink
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An yet another Israeli Jew who hides behind all the Jews of the world as if you are all in the same boat.
I do not hate Jews. I have met quite a few Jews and had no idea that they were Jewish because we don't discuss religion much in my circle of family and friends.
Who decided that you could make a home in Israel just because it makes you feel good?
This is not a Jewish problem it is an Israeli problem that was created by people who thought they could displace Palestinians from their homes and eventually they would learn to accept it. How's that working out for you?
And before you chastise me for living in a sleepy Midwest town and not having the worldliness to understand the complexities of the big bad middle east please keep in mind, a) I did not move to Israel and then complain about the violence and b) Without our tax dollars you wouldnt last in that region for more than a month.

This is the same stupid fight we have been drawn into for as long as I can remember. The US should cut the purse strings.

Once again I do not hate the Jews. I don't even believe in religion. As long as no one pushes their religious morality upon me I could care less what you worship. But Israel's problems are of their own making.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:55 PM on 12/30/2008
- Karin Kloosterman - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Karin Kloosterman 27 fans permalink
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I decided I could live in Israel because it makes me feel good. And as a Jew, there is no place I would rather be, at least right now.

I am not chastising all bloggers in the Midwest, just one I happened to read.

Without Israel holding down the fort in the Middle East, America might very soon be transported back to the Dark Ages.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:00 AM on 12/31/2008
- jackie2 I'm a Fan of jackie2 2 fans permalink

That's funny-You must mean the terrible Dark Ages poor, pitiful America was struggling through until 1948, when Israel became a state & taught the American people how to read & write & do simle math-Because of you, we've even learned to replace our little thatch roof huts with actual houses-We surely never would have pulled ourselves out of our Dark Ages ignorance without you!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:25 AM on 12/31/2008

"Without Israel holding down the fort in the Middle East, America might very soon be transported back to the Dark Ages."

How widespread is that belief throughout Israel??

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:54 AM on 12/31/2008
- slarabee I'm a Fan of slarabee 26 fans permalink
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I am sorry if my comments seem hard edged but there are no soft edges on this double edged sword.
It is a historic fact that Israel made a place of their own in the Middle East by displacing the people that lived there at the time. It was not some empty uninhabited place when the Israelis got there. There were people and families with homes there and they were forced to leave. If you came to my home and told me I had to leave so you could have a home I would fight you to my dying breath.
The vast majority of the violence that we as American's experience at the hands of terrorism stems from our support of Israel. To my way of thinking the situation is only exacerbated by people like you that seem to convince yourself your home is in the Middle East where you are not wanted.
That said my heart goes out to everyone in the region and I will pray (for all the good that will do) for a peaceful resolution to your conflict. I will not hold my breath though. Killing more Palestinians serves only to reinforce their preconceived ideas about Israelis as brutal murders who stole their land and homes. The truth is in the perspective.
I sincerely hope that you and yours remain safe and well through these dangerous times. Though I may disagree with you I would not wish war and death upon anyone.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:34 PM on 12/31/2008

When are you going to write an Islamophobe version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:42 AM on 01/01/2009

Because it makes you feel good?

Without our support for Israel, in dollars for illegal settlements and in weapons, our enemies would have few reasons left to hate us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:21 PM on 01/06/2009

SLarabee: It is a Jewish problem. And a Christian problem. Hamas talks about shedding the blood of the Yahud - the Jews. Hamas wants the Middle East to be purely Moslem. It wants to convert Christians, too.

If you care to know why Jews come to live in Israel, like me, a New Yorker, ask around, read the Old Testament, do some Googling on Jewish history. Jews have always lived in Israel, it is just a question of numbers.
The Jewish immigrants who came between 1880 and 1948 never displaced inhabitants. They legally bought land and developed it. The Arabs could not tolerate the presence of non-Arabs in their midst.
The only time that Arabs were displaced was as a result of the War of Independence in 1948, in which Egypt, Jordon, Iraq and Syria were participants. Some of the Arab inhabitants fled at the urging of their leaders to Gaza, Lebanon and the West Bank and abandoned their mostly simple stone homes. Since the war, no Arabs have been displaced. Their population has increased.
Those that did not flee in 1948 became voting citizens of Israel. Arabs can live in or near Jewish towns, sometimes in separate neighborhoods. Jews never live in Arab towns unless they convert.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:05 AM on 01/01/2009
- ENOS I'm a Fan of ENOS 6 fans permalink
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Imagine being forced into a small neighborhood, filled with millions of jobless people, whose water and electricity is cut off a few days every week. Then imagine having huge missiles sent in by an overruling government to demolish your friends and family.

By the way, I think a good question to ask would be, Is Israel fighting America’s fight against Islam, or is America fighting Islam for Israel?

Maybe it’s time that America no longer supports any racially segregated nation?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:56 PM on 12/30/2008
- Karin Kloosterman - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Karin Kloosterman 27 fans permalink
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America, like Israel, is fighting against the War on Terror. It is fighting against radical Islamic people who do not speak for the majority of Muslims. Israel is fighting the Hamas which is denigrating and humiliating Palestinians. We are fighting against their Jihad, or Holy War, which has no clear mission except to destroy anything which Israel and the West considers to be good and true.

And America has no racial segregation? Give me a break.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:03 AM on 12/31/2008
- jackie2 I'm a Fan of jackie2 2 fans permalink

I have an idea!-Why don't Israelis get their soldiers out of the West Bank & get their violent, fanatical fundamentalist settlers out of the West Bank, as per prior U.N. Resolutions, allow inspections of YOUR nuclear weapons facilities, along with your other weapons of mass destruction & stop bullying your neighbors?-Why don't you stop hating, persecuting & killing the Palestinians, who are of course semites-Is Israel an anti-semitic nation, or what?-I too, have lived in Israel & know it well-The majority of people there wish to create a pure Jewish State, just as the Germans wanted a pure Aryan State & for all the same reasons-Many Israelis would not even be satisfied with the death or expulsion of every Palestinian man, woman & child-They believe they are biblically entitled to part of present day Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & all of Jordan-And your statements that Israel somehow makes America safer & more secure is either dishonest or delusional-I wish we could spend the billions of dollars we give to your adopted country every year on our own needs instead, not to mention the masses of expensive weaponry you get from us-Why isn't Israel capable of supporting itself, like a gown up independent state ?-Why do you guys need so much "aid" from America, as well as Europe?-What's with the welfare, anyway?-Just wondering-

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:13 AM on 12/31/2008
- jotunloki I'm a Fan of jotunloki 8 fans permalink
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We elected a man of mixed African and white descent as our president. When will Israel elect a non-Jew as a national leader?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 PM on 01/01/2009
- ENOS I'm a Fan of ENOS 6 fans permalink
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Karen,

Your comment about finding peace within is, as I’m sure you’re aware of, a common understanding that all Religions hold. The problem is that many “religious” people don't actually practice the concepts they claim to believe. You can see how the West has used Christianity for instance. Compared to the understand that the Eastern Orthodox (the original Christian tradition), the Western church seems to only preach faith (without the practice of imitating the peace of Christ).

I would say that the same could be said about Islam and Judaism. The problem is that people are flawed, and so it’s only natural that people within religions will be flawed as well. Incidentally, God-less cultures have the same problems as any religious culture (Racism, Sexism, violence, etc.).

So, I'd like to ask, what are your real feelings about Palestinians? Did you consider that they all are also related to Abraham? Have you considered that they had their land taken from them in the night by raids and an armada of tanks and weapons of mass destruction?

Of course, violence begets violence, and of course, all sides are guilty of fueling the problem. But is it good practice as a Jew or as a Christian to stick millions of people in a ghetto and then to drop bombs on innocent families all because of some radicals that chose to lash out against their oppressor?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:56 PM on 12/30/2008
- GrainOSand I'm a Fan of GrainOSand 269 fans permalink
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Excellent reasoning, beautiful reflection, you struck the right chords.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:04 PM on 12/30/2008
- Karin Kloosterman - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Karin Kloosterman 27 fans permalink
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Judaism is a living religion which does practice what it preaches. When you talk about religion, you have to make a distinction. There is religion, and then there are people. I don't always agree what people do with their religion, but that's another debate.

God-less cultures don't last very long, unfortunately.

Palestinians are descendants of Abraham's son Ishmael.

You seem to have no clear idea of history. Jews lived in Israel in an unbroken chain going back to Abraham's time. Before the establishment of the State, Jews were living in Israel. They owned land, they worked it; there were doctors, and everything in between.

Palestinians are in a ghetto by choice. It was the only choice Israel had to protect its people.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:10 AM on 12/31/2008
- moflard I'm a Fan of moflard 12 fans permalink

"You seem to have no clear idea of history. Jews lived in Israel in an unbroken chain going back to Abraham's time. Before the establishment of the State, Jews were living in Israel. They owned land, they worked it; there were doctors, and everything in between."

Apart from you not answering the point about Palestinian lands being "appropriated", you missed out that they have also been there owning land, working the land, being doctors and teachers etc, for 7000 years. As for whether the Jews WERE Jews going back to Abraham, considering there's ample evidence for polytheism in proto-Israelite archaeology and ethnohistory I'm not sure you can make that claim. They even ate pork (it stopped as a method to separate them from other populations).

As for the ghetto - yes, the Nazi's made very similar claims, do you really want to be repeating those loons arguments?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:30 AM on 12/31/2008
- jotunloki I'm a Fan of jotunloki 8 fans permalink
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No, evidence points to Palestinians being descended largely from Jews who managed to remain in Judea after the removal by the Romans after the revolt. Arabs are (and claim to be) descended from Ishmael.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:37 PM on 01/01/2009

"Palestinians are in a ghetto by choice. It was the only choice Israel had to protect its people."

Beautiful. Palestinians are in a ghetto by choice -- Israeli choice. Do you honestly believe that your religion entitles you to peace and prosperity on the backs of your neighbors?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:26 PM on 01/06/2009
- ron ray I'm a Fan of ron ray 8 fans permalink

with all due respect, Israel is not fighting my war, disagreeing with Israel is not a sign of antisemitism, and I have no reason to look inward about this.

Israel's dispute with Palestinians is not about radical islamic terrorism. Bin Laden and other radicals learned to pay lip service to it, but it[s not their cause.

Likewise, I have disagreed with Israel's policy on many things. So did the many Israelis who've protested their incursions into Lebanon over years, and events like Sabra and Chatilla (look em up.) those folks are not antisemitic.

I happen to agree with this action. after years of missile attacks, Israel has to act in self defense. But me looking inward will have no impact on this conflict.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:55 PM on 12/30/2008

This is a very manipulative article, offering absolutely no insight and only suggesting the importance of the author's own feelings. To assosciate critique of the Israeli government as anti-semitism is not only manipulative, but an irrational argument that the author does not even both to try and rationalize.

If Israelie Jews continue this line of manipulation, then they will see further and further alienation from their very real and rational arguments for the right to exist as a nation.

The world does not hate these actions because you are Jewish. The rational world hates these actions because they are SELF DEFEATING, and in the selfishness of BOTH Israel and Palestine, you are effecting the entire world for the sake of self defeating acts which are bringing neither side closer to any solution.

And naturally Israel, like America, will find the most criticism, because Israel IS the bigger country, with more intelligence and access to wealth than Palestine, therefore, and rightfully so, we EXPECT bigger actions from them, and if you do not deliver, it is not because you are Jewish, it is because you, like all countries, are manipulated by your politicians into delivering such manipulative arguments as your blog entry above. FOR SHAME.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:39 PM on 12/30/2008
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Well said. I dont suppose the author ever wondered about what happens when a bunch of Europeans try to take over a 3rd world country. You either have to displace or kill the people who live in that country. In the case of Israel its slow motion ethnic cleansing. The really grinding part of this is that the US taxpayers have to support Israel to the tune of 2 to 3 billions a year so they can continue the slaughter.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:04 PM on 12/30/2008
- Karin Kloosterman - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Karin Kloosterman 27 fans permalink
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Israelis are not only Europeans. The religion is divided into two major groups: Ashekenazi which is characterised by Yiddish, gefilte fish and klezmer music, and Sephardim, who come from countries like Morocco and Turkey. Then there are Jews who've lived in Israel for 80 generations. There were Jews living here before Herzl, and before the Europeans Jews, whose families were exterminated. No one wanted them. Israel was a perfect and convenient solution for Europeans.

And in my opinion the Jews here have done a pretty good job developing this part of the world.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:46 AM on 12/31/2008

"I dont suppose the author ever wondered about what happens when a bunch of Europeans try to take over a 3rd world country."
Interesting, but factually wrong.
There was NO country here in Israel in modern times.
It was mostly either desert or swamps. There were a few cities, Jerusalem, Hevron, Shechem, etc., populated by both Jews and Arabs.
The only state to ever be in Israel - has been a Jewish state. Otherwise, Israel was considered a province (run down, very small population).
About 120 years ago, Jews began returning to their ancient homeland. They purchased swamp lands (at exorbitant rates) and built homes. Many arabs came to work here. Most Palestinians are their descendants
The Jews came from all over, including Asia and Africa
In 1948, when the State was declared, about 600,000 Jews were forced to flee for their lives from Arab countries. They reached Israel and are no longer refugees.
The Arab leadership told their brethren to leave Israel b/c "The arab armies would annihilate the Jews, and they could return victorious". About 600,000 Arabs left. They were not welcomed in arab states (there are 22 Arab states and 1 Jewish state) and were forced to remain refugees for the past 60 years.
In 1963, when Gaza and the West Bank were still under Jordanian rule the PLO (terrorist organization) was established with the goal of destroying Israel.
For more information see http://www.honestreporting.com/a/gaza2008primer.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 AM on 12/31/2008
- GrainOSand I'm a Fan of GrainOSand 269 fans permalink
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Your comment must be considered...for sanity (those seeking it concerning this long-playing tragedy).

For shame indeed!

Thanks for your voice.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 PM on 12/30/2008
- Karin Kloosterman - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Karin Kloosterman 27 fans permalink
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If I "manipulated" you into reading this article, and commenting on it, then my purpose was achieved.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:13 AM on 12/31/2008
- chaos4700 I'm a Fan of chaos4700 85 fans permalink
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Whatever. People aren't buying this load of fertilizer anymore. The actions of spilling blood and bombing city centers speaks louder than anything any Israeli could say.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:02 AM on 01/05/2009

Go Karin Go!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 PM on 01/10/2009
- dctackett I'm a Fan of dctackett 9 fans permalink

The three revealing quotes:

"The real message is "We hate the Jews." Hating Israel, I think, is just a mutated form of anti-Semitism, and we all know where that led."

"If Israel wasn't here, the Islamic fundamentalists would be on your doorstep"

"It goes back to the beginning of time, and it's connected to God."

Over Simplified, Under Knowledge-Based, and completely lacking in thoughtful consideration.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:07 PM on 12/30/2008
- Karin Kloosterman - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Karin Kloosterman 27 fans permalink
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Next time, I will write a 1,700 page dissertation on the history of religion. Would that satisfy?

I meant to give you a slice of my life. An honest slice that shows you one Israeli among the 8 million.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:15 AM on 12/31/2008
- dctackett I'm a Fan of dctackett 9 fans permalink

waited, but apparently my first reply wasn't acceptable... I'll try again

No need to write a 1,700 page dissertation on the history of religion. It would not satisfy, it would probably be filled with slogans, buzzwords, errors and false assumption... in other words, not worth reading.

I appreaciate your honesty, however, when you post something publicly, expect replies that point out that what you honestly believe does not conform to reality.

1. You think that if someone citicizes someone else's actions, it's not the actions, they just hate them.

2. You think that Israel is holding back the tide of Islamic Fundamentalists...

3. You think the conflict goes back to the "beginning of time"... try 60 years... hardly the "beginning of time"

4. You think this conflict is "connected to God"... as if there is some invisible magical super being started the conflict or is interfering... come on, and is a magical unicorn going to come down from the sky and take you off to Xanadu?... it apparently has nothing to do with the displacement and oppression of the Palestinians...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:55 PM on 12/31/2008
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