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Katherine Fennelly

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What Does the Morality of Americans Have to Do With Immigration in America?

Posted: 07/09/10 01:26 AM ET

If you have ever taken a course on child psychology, you may remember Lawrence Kohlberg's research on the stages of moral development. Kohlberg was a Harvard professor who presented scripted dilemmas to children in different settings to test their moral reasoning. One such dilemma was the story of a woman who was dying of a rare form of cancer. When her husband had no way to afford the high-priced drug that could cure her, he broke into a laboratory and stole it. Kohlberg was not interested in evaluating childrens' conclusions about whether the man's actions were right or wrong, but rather in analyzing the kind of moral reasoning that informed their decisions. In his research he (and others who followed him) found that, as individuals mature, they pass through different levels of moral development. At the most elementary or "pre-conventional" level that is common in young children, an action is judged to be wrong if you will get caught, or right if it serves your interests. At the middle, or "conventional" level, moral reasoning is guided by considerations of "law and order." At this level, the overriding concern is for adherence to the law. The third, and highest level of 'post-conventional' moral reasoning has two stages: first, an understanding of social mutuality and concern for the welfare of others, and secondly, adherence to individual conscience and respect for a universal principle of justice. Kohlberg noted that this third level of reasoning is not achieved by a majority of adults.

Analysis of much of the recent angry rhetoric over "illegal immigration" suggests that many Americans are stuck at the conventional level of moral development, in which the statement "they broke the law" becomes the main criterion for crafting policy responses. If you Google the phrase "what about illegal don't you understand," you will find thousands of adherents to this level of reasoning.

Considering the immigration dilemma at a higher level of moral reasoning doesn't mean that there is one simple, 'right' policy response. However, it does require examining the root causes of undocumented immigration and its consequences through the lens of more universal principles of justice. If we study those root causes, it's easy to see that our own government policies have produced the problem, rather than contempt for the law on the part of those who enter without authorization or who overstay their visas.

The North American Free Trade Agreement, or NAFTA, greatly facilitated the free flow of goods and capital across U.S. borders with Mexico and Canada, but there was no concomitant reduction of restrictions on the entry of labor. At the same time, there has been a dramatic and increasing need for young workers in the United States, as Americans age and as we attain higher levels of education that make us disdain crucial jobs in many service industries. In fact, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, it is jobs that require only on-the-job training that are increasing most rapidly in the United States. Instead of responding to this need by increasing the allocation of employment visas to young, blue collar workers, we have kept the numbers at paltry levels that make it virtually impossible for millions of willing workers from Mexico, Central America or other countries to enter legally.

Only one percent of all employment-based visas are issued to low skilled workers. In other words, for these individuals, there is no "line" to get into. Instead, our government policies have led to a ritualized game of "Gotcha," in which immigrants are drawn to the U.S. because of the prospect of jobs that have gone unfilled by American workers; but once they cross the border, they are increasingly victimized by public anger and by mean-spirited local ordinances and laws. The newly passed law in Arizona that makes it a crime to be present without a visa or for a legal resident to give a ride to someone known to be undocumented has just raised the stakes in this debate by furthering the game of "Gotcha" at a very low level of moral reasoning.

 
If you have ever taken a course on child psychology, you may remember Lawrence Kohlberg's research on the stages of moral development. Kohlberg was a Harvard professor who presented scripted dilemmas...
If you have ever taken a course on child psychology, you may remember Lawrence Kohlberg's research on the stages of moral development. Kohlberg was a Harvard professor who presented scripted dilemmas...
 
 
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02:34 PM on 07/12/2010
Professor -

1. You are comparing apples to bicycles

You cannot equate a man breaking the law to save his wife to people in general making the decision cognitively to cross into another country illegally to obain a better job instead of pushing to improve their own country. It's the not the same and you know it and to make the comparison is biased and unscientific.

2. "........gone unfilled by American workers.........."

Wrong. The jobs were'nt unfilled they were denegrated to less than living wage in unnaturally horrific human conditions purposely to attract illegal immigrants at low wages. The results of which drive down the wages for all Americans.

3. By opposing illegal immigration we're exercising a broader deeper sense of morality by sacrificing the few for the many even though there is pain and suffering on all sides.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
01:55 PM on 07/13/2010
Your no. 3,

Taking the side of the rich & powerful many against the desperately poor & powerless few. I wonder what kind of reward that earns you in heaven.
02:10 PM on 07/12/2010
So we should let millions of unskilled third worlders in to work at McDonalds our fastest growing industry!!! Ever wonder why Americans are getting so fat those jobs should be filled by kids blacks not illegals and immigrates with 7-10 kids. The trickle down economy doesn't factor in the welfare and education and health care costs for these people . MCDONALDS ARE NOT PROFITABLE WHEN YOU FIGURE IN THE COSTS TO THE PEOPLE!!!! Lady your insanity is clear and the likes of you should be thrown on the dung heap of history with communism and capitalism
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CelticMajic
The answer lies in each of us individually
09:03 AM on 07/12/2010
The point of this article is to target American citizens who wish to see the law obeyed and paint them as somehow less moral than those who rationalize for and excuse the law breakers. We are a nation of laws. The law is not a suggestion to be ignored. It is not subject to moral relativism in its enforcement.
01:28 PM on 07/12/2010
the morality of some laws is the issue... fact is immoral laws are unenforcable..what determines the morality ? legislating and restricting behaviours contrary to normal human desires wont work ( such as the appetite to temporarily alters ones view via drug injestion .a human pre-occupation since the dawn of time) temporary Immigration from south of the border existed before there were borders and its about economics..... the right of an individual top provide for his/her family is a given as is the desire for improvement ... 'laws which cannot be enforced shall be laughed at ' (B Spinosa) ... as the gap between 'haves' and 'have nots' continues to grow so will dissent until it all crashes due to the inability to effectively enforce sub-human rules .gating onself off might be an option for wealthy disconneced elites .but wont work for the masses... its all very well to demonise the desparate ..it takes courage an insight to act as a real human being ..Morality cannot be legislated..period... look..when a 'visa' to comply with the rules cannot be obtained by ANY means ..another way will be found .. humans are very good at adapting ...
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CelticMajic
The answer lies in each of us individually
02:13 PM on 07/12/2010
1. Do you believe immigration laws that stop short of "open boarders" are immoral in and of themselves?
2. Seems your post is rationalizing/excusing those that break the law. Yes?
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07:12 PM on 07/11/2010
75,301,653 results for
"' they do jobs americans won't do'
02:17 PM on 07/12/2010
Yes there is jobs whites will not do work at McDonalds with black convicts and brown rapists from all over the globe. If the McDonalds was staffed by all whites they would jump to work there.Civil war will come to the US soon and these liberals will be held responsible and it will be the hoards of brown and black masses that do them in because the strong will not protect weak people like them.
"Putnam adds a crushing footnote: His findings 'may underestimate the real effect of diversity on social withdrawal.'"
"People living in ethnically diverse settings appear to 'hunker down,' that is, to pull in like a turtle," "withdraw even from close friends, to expect the worst from their community and its leaders, to volunteer less, give less to charity and work on community projects less often, to register to vote less, to agitate for social reform more but have less faith they can actually make a difference, and to huddle unhappily in front of the television."
The greater the diversity the greater the distrust, says Putnam. In racially and ethnically
mixed communities, not only do people not trust strangers, they do not even trust their own kind. They withdraw into themselves, they support community activity less, they vote less.
They vote less wouldn't the criminals in congress like that
http://www.vdare.com/buchanan/070809_putnam.htm
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Altario
Among nerds, I'm cool.
06:42 PM on 07/11/2010
Today, I plan on getting a new job. I have decided that I am going down to Apple and get me an office, a desk, large salary. It is my right, and their moral imperitive to provide me with one.

No matter that they did not hire me. No matter that the office I choose may belong to another. They owe me. I deserve a better life than the one I have right now. Apple has more than I, so it is only right that I get my share of it. No matter that maybe another was to get that job by actually putting in a resume and going through an interview process. He can wait.


I love my new rights. Tomorrow, I think I'll be the CEO.
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06:53 PM on 07/11/2010
That is the perfect analogy for Israel's policies in the Middle East.
10:25 PM on 07/14/2010
^5
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c-tom
Badges we don't need no stinking badges
06:26 PM on 07/11/2010
So what is the moral argument for allowing millions of people to come into the country to try and find jobs again? Remember some people are saying the actual unemployment rate is 19%. Wouldn't it be as moral to deport the 11 million illegals and have their jobs filled by legal residents?
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06:21 PM on 07/11/2010
How many Arizona Teabaggers cross the border to get their meds?

Are they not drug smugglers?

Have they not broke Federal law?

What about "illegal" do they NOT understand?
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Altario
Among nerds, I'm cool.
06:43 PM on 07/11/2010
So, secure the borders.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
06:16 PM on 07/11/2010
Gasparilla

I will attempt to address the two points you make below on a thread that ran out of the reply option. First, let us be clear what we are talking about: the moral issues involved in comprehensive immigration law reform. When I say that it is unjust to deny people jobs who need jobs & are willing & available to work, I am addressing two issues that must be decided in any meaningful reform proposals: temporary work visas & employer sanctions. There are many advantages & few downsides to creating new visas for temporary & seasonal workers to come legally to the USA to fill jobs that otherwise have a limited labor pool in the USA such as in agriculture in CA. As for employer sanctions, this is another discussion, but in general, I fail to see the rationale for treating American businesses & industries that create jobs as the enemy & making it harder & more expensive for them to hire willing workers. As for the need for young workers, the author is right on! We aging Anglos are retiring or dying off so over the next few decades we need productive young workers to contribute to social security & take care of us in our old age. The birthrate is low among Anglos & high among Latinos, so we need to educate them well so they can prosper. Soon we will be competing with Mexico for a young labor force, so legalization serves us well long term.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Alitoo
07:04 PM on 07/11/2010
Tell us, Cody Girl, isn't it UNJUST for the government of Mexico to deny people who need jobs and are willing and available to work? And just why is it OUR responsibility, particularly with more than 15 million Americans unemployed, to hire Mexicans and other illegal aliens while our own citizens go without?

Furthermore, we already have a number of guest worker programs, including those for seasonal agricultural workers and other unskilled workers. Employers won't use those programs because they can hire illegal aliens more cheaply and exploit them. Furthermore, you're wrong about the birthrate. The US is ABOVE replacement rate, even without immigration. Mexico, on the other hand, is aging MORE rapidlly than the US. Nor do "we" need to educate them. In fact, by your earlier argument, if we need unskilled labor, it's in OUR interest NOT to educate them since they will then do the jobs that illegal aliens are now doing. We can import skilled workers without having to educate them--or we can educate our own young to do better paying jobs. Spending the money to educate the children of unskilled uneducated illegal aliens takes money away form providing not only for our own children but for our own elderly.
07:37 PM on 07/11/2010
What she is also claiming is that there is some big financial bonus for the country here with these "low skilled" workers she and the author are so enamored of. But if a low wage person comes here legally, bringing his spouse and three children, and then becomes a citizen, he not only pays no income tax, but gets an actual check from the government of up to five thousand dollars for the "earned income credit". Not a deduction, but a payment. And then there is the costs of education, healthcare because they are low income, and it starts to add up. But all the speechmakers don't want to acknowledge those facts.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
08:28 PM on 07/11/2010
Alitoo

Arguments about the cost of educating the children of unauthorized immigrants (UI) are totally pointless since the Supreme Court has already ruled that the these children are entitled to a free public K-12 education in Plyler v. Doe 1982. Besides, most of the children of UI are US citizens by virtue of being born in the United States. They are not subject to deportation & will grow up with the right to vote so the political party that advocates for deporting their parents or fails to educate them well will not win their political support. It is not only the morally correct thing to do to provide them a good education, it is the practical thing to do to improve society. Consider, for example, that in Arizona 45% of the births currently are to Latina mothers. Nationally it is 47%. This gives us an idea of the demographics of the next generation. We don't want them to be "unskilled & uneducated" as you say. UI who remain in this country without a legal status that allows them to be employed & assimilate will not be able to support their US citizen children in advancing & prospering in our society. Face reality. What is just is also in everyone's best interests.
07:15 PM on 07/11/2010
And the "work visas" are a separate issue. What you have clearly stated, and what you are agreeing with the author about, is that you think there is a "human right" to come here if you are "willing and able to work" but otherwise you are not "allowed in". Your message is if you don't like the law or the procedure to come here, feel free to ignore it because you have the moral right. And as far as the "need for young workers", the author is hardly "right on". Here's how it goes: There's the rhetoric you are so fond of, and then there are the actual facts. The facts are that there is no need at the present time for some big influx of workers. What I have pointed out to you, at least three times or more, is that the unemployment levels of young workers are very high, approaching one in five, the general unemployment rate is also very high, and the long term unemployed, those who have given up, are also at record levels. So while you carry on about this great "need" for workers, the facts [those things you wish to ignore] indicate the opposite. It's predicted unemployment levels are going to remain high for years, so deal with the reality that there is no "dramatic and increasing need for young workers in the United States." If you and the author want to base your arguments on false claims, that's up to you.
02:43 PM on 07/11/2010
A little reaching? Somebody's trying to get a book deal, I guess.
10:47 AM on 07/11/2010
If Katherine Fennelly wants to discuss NAFTA, she should educate herself on the facts. Mexico co-wrote NAFTA, it claimed that if given those millions of jobs, it would have a middle class, a larger tax base upon which to raise revenue to do more for it's poor, and that would eliminate illegal immigration. Mexico has since refused to honor it's promises, and activists in Mexico have stated that as long as the US doesn't enforce it's laws, it makes it harder for them to force Mexico to do honor it's obligations. The way things stand, Mexico is able to artificially lower it's tax rates by encouraging it's poor to enter the US illegally, and push our tax rates up higher, encouraging more US employers to consider moving to Mexico, which is an unfair, cheating practice. It's the 12th wealthiest country in the world, 4th largest oil producing nation in the world, it can afford to help it's own people. Nor can it hide behind "developing nation" as it's development is on it's own terms. Perhaps the professor's moral relativism is more concerned with what profits her, rather than the harm caused by her indifference?
10:54 AM on 07/11/2010
I posted 2 comments, because I didn't have enough space for the full comment I needed to make. I'd like to know why the comment citing the fact that immigration laws were put in place to protect poor and middle class Americans from being discriminated against, and that it has been proven by two respected academics, one at UC Berkely and the other at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard that we didn't have a worker or skills shortage of any kind, and that the refusal to enforce our immigration laws and the exploitation of our visa program has been to reward corporate contributors by corrupt politicians, and their abuses have lead to massive displacement of citizens in the workplace, an the number of tent cities springing up across the US. If the HuffPo truly cares, why is there such censorship of the facts allowed here?
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
11:20 AM on 07/11/2010
Mares

The outcomes of NAFTA in Mexico are clearly a "mixed bag." One consequence has been migration within Mexico to the large cities & from Mexico to the USA, mostly among the rural poor who have been displaced & have lost subsistence farming on small plots of land as American corn is imported to devalue their crops. There has always been a great deal of back & forth migration from Mexico due to push-pull factors between Mexico & the US, even before & unrelated to NAFTA. Migration to the USA has actually slowed recently because of the recession here & shifting demographics in Mexico. The author addresses the moral issues involved in our immigration policy & the impact of NAFTA on Mexico's economy should certainly be a consideration. The USA pushed NAFTA so that it could open up markets for American products in Mexico, so we benefit, most especially if Mexicans have spendable income. The anti-migrant worker folks & the nativists do not occupy the moral high ground in this debate. We must consider the rich & powerful USA's role in exploiting Mexico & the disparity in wealth & income of our countries' working class in determining immigration policy.
11:29 AM on 07/11/2010
You are absolutely correct. Fennelly not only rewrites history, but states outright falsehoods. She claims that there was "no concomitant reduction of restrictions on the entry of labor." Of course, that was never ever under discussion when NAFTA was proposed. In fact, it was sold as what you point out, which was that it would stop illegals coming here. American labor never would have agreed to any program that increased workers coming here. Mexico wants the best of both worlds, our factories and manufacturing jobs, and send their uneducated poor here. And then she makes the absolutely false statement about a "dramatic and increasing need for young workers in the United States." And of course, unemployment among workers 24 and under is at depression era levels, nearly twenty percent. The same can be said for minority youth, whose levels are even worse.

Her position mirrors that of pro business publications like the Wall Street Journal, which has called for an amendment saying "There shall be open borders". In other words lots of cheap labor to undercut the bargaining power of the American worker. Or Bill Gates, who at the same time Microsoft was laying off thousands of American citizens, was calling for unlimited H1B visa workers. Cheap compliant labor who won't say or demand anything.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
vippy
Carpe Diem!
06:31 PM on 07/10/2010
Amazing, 6 of Mexico's mayors will not attend the meeting because they are protesting the law in Arizona. Excuse me, Mexican mayors won't attend? They are protesting. I just don't get it.
Why not promote legal immigration instead?
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
07:06 PM on 07/10/2010
It is not six mayors. It is the six governors of the Mexican states that border the USA. And you are right. You don't get it. These governors have met for years with the governors of the US border states to work cooperatively to solve our common problems on the border, which include drug smuggling & organized criminal activities such as illegal gun running from the USA into Mexico. The Mexican governors are making a clear statement that AZ's law interferes with the cooperative relationships between them & their US counterparts. Jan Brewer canceled the meeting that was supposed to take place in AZ, but Bill Richardson of NV & others are working to change the venue so that the Mexican governors can attend. This is an important example of the compelling reasons why the AZ law must be nullified by the federal courts.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
IllTakeTheRedEye
Do you know what a nonemployer business is?
04:23 AM on 07/11/2010
You wrote, "...clear statement that AZ's law interferes with relationships between them & US counterparts. ...compelling reasons why AZlaw must be nullified by federal courts."

Govs of Mexican states & President Calderon don't stop this...then what?

NPR News investigation has found strong evidence
of collusion between elements of the Mexican army & Sinaloa cartel
Marisa Peñaloza & Robert Benincasa
May192010
GulfZetaCartel
LaFamililaCartel
TijuanaCartel
SinaloaCartel
Beltran-LeyvaCartel
JuarezCartel
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126906809

&

Mexican Military aiding crossing of Illegal Aliens including drug trafficking
January102008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ipFuOIBrUw&feature=related

Each year thousands of women & children, with 12-year-olds in top demand, are smuggled from Mexico into USA, sent to brothels across the United States. Such brothels, notes Schurman-Kauflin, “can take the form of homes, apartments, spas, massage parlors, & hotels … even middle class neighborhoods can be at risk.
http://www.jwpcivitasinstitute.org/media/publication-archive/perspective/illegal-immigration-drugs-gangs-and-crime

U.S. People Tortured Murdered, Mexican Cartel
CNN - Samantha Hayes in Atlanta
February192009
ATF-Phoenix,
DEA-Birmingham
DEA-Atlanta
McAllenTX
BirminghamAL
Miami, BoiseID, AnchorageAK,
suburban Atlanta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJHuIQ11j4s&feature=related

Ethnic Cleansing of Innocent Blacks by Mexican Supremacists in California
March 17, 2008
KNBC Channel 9 news L.A - Conan Nolan reporting
(Wait 9 seconds for news channel footage)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ICV0ln91a0&feature=related

Mexican Mafia engages in racial profiling Killing & targeting L.A. Blacks
October162007
KCAL Channel 9news L.A.- Mark Coogan reporting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU5Uq-RalKI&feature=related
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Alitoo
07:07 PM on 07/11/2010
My, my, my. So now, MEXICO is determining not only our FEDERAL domestic policy but that of our own STATES? Try putting this on the front page of most national newspapers and see how well that doesn't play with most Americans--it will guarantee that amnesty doesn't pass if anything will.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
SonicUltimate
09:33 PM on 07/10/2010
Simple. You can promote legal immigration all you want. Fact remains, only a select few of those who want to come are legally allowed to come. This creates a context in which potential immigrants have a choice between staying put in some very bad circumstances, or leaving that behind for a chance at a better life.

What would you do if the US officials said the country is full, but your family is better off should you commit a misdemeanor?
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
vippy
Carpe Diem!
10:27 PM on 07/10/2010
Bush made a deal with Iraq that we will take 25,000 Iraqis. They have come here already, I see them. Obama just signed an agreement that he will take Palestinians. USA has the most legal immigrants every year. And no, some people don't get here because there is a better life.
Fact is most people want to duplicate the Arizona Law in their state.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
IllTakeTheRedEye
Do you know what a nonemployer business is?
03:11 AM on 07/11/2010
I know a high number of people willing to trespass onto the property of you, your friends, your neighbors you like, and every member of your family.

It is only a misdemeanor.

They will be there just until their families are better off, what do you say?
05:51 PM on 07/10/2010
It's amazing the people who claim to be such intellectual giants and look down their nose at the people who "don't get" this article. No one owes any "line" to anyone who decides they want to come here for a better life. There are billions of people in this world who live in abject poverty, but apparently they all should be allowed to come, and if they're not allowed, they have some right to do so illegally.

Then there is always that vapid comparison about how being here illegally, excuse me, undocumented, is the same as you or I going over the speed limit. Well, riddle me this, batman. If you speed does the government have the right to take you into custody, refuse bail if they choose, and deport you to another country? The answer would be no. You get a summons at the most and you're on your way.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
06:37 PM on 07/10/2010
G. We are not talking about a "right" to do something illegally. This is a red herring in this debate. We are talking about how we make laws that conform to our economic, social, cultural & moral reality. Think of the circular thinking involved in our immigration laws. We make laws to exclude certain people & to allow other in. When people we do not allow to come in, come in anyway, we label them illegal. We claim that they are bad people because they are illegal because it is a bad thing to be illegal, without examining whether or not the laws that made them illegal are bad in the first place. Of course people who enter illegally or overstay their visas know the penalty: deportation. But they also know that this is because they are not playing by the rules set in place by a society that sends them a barrage of ambiguous messages. "We want you to do the jobs we won't do, but you shouldn't expect anything in return if we choose to deport you." "We expect you to learn English & assimilate, but we won't give you a legal status so you can." These immigrants play the cat & mouse game that we designed out of our ambivalence about their presence among us.
07:04 PM on 07/10/2010
Again, the author is saying that we have made it "virtually impossible for millions of young workers from Mexico, Central American, and other countries to enter legally". "In other words, there is no 'line' for these workers to get into." Over and over, she makes it clear that it is "our own government policies" that force people to come here illegally. She spells it out. Your denying that isn't what she is saying is meaningless. No one is owed a "line", "legal status" or anything. You say "we make laws to exclude certain people and allow others in." Yes we do, and that is our right to do so. There is no other country in the world where there is some inherent right to enter. With that line you are arguing that it is unfair to those not "allowed" in. They are not entitled to come here. We have the right to "exclude" who we want. And her argument about the "need" to issue more visas to young workers is flat out wrong. Unemployment of people 24 and under is at depression era levels.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Alitoo
07:11 PM on 07/11/2010
On the contrary, it isn't "society" that is sending messages. It's special interest groups that pressure this and previous Administrations to act in ways that are contrary to the interests of Americans in general. Don't confuse these groups with Americans in general.

Illegal aliens know when they lie to get a visa or when they cross into this country without inspection that they are breaking the law and running the risk of deportation. They know when they commit other acts, such as using stolen or fraudulent identities, drive without licenses, or work without authorization that they are breaking the law. They know when they evade taxes that they are breaking the law.

It is this Administration that is again proving that it has NO intention of enforcing the law because it's looking out for its own political interests--even though the unemployment rate is high and millions of Americans are out of work while illegal aliens are working. Americans in general have NO AMBIVALENCE about illegal immigration any more than they have about other people who lie, cheat, or jump lines. Don't kid yourself on that.
04:51 PM on 07/11/2010
I am sure that if people living in poverty in India could get here without swimming, they'd be here too. Cubans have died in the water.

Its time to go after the corporate interests that never get fined or punished. Allow documented seasonal workers to come in. Make the documents important, and tell them if you show up off season, you will lose your seasonal documents. Make the legal part for seasonal workers and go after the big corporations. If all of the jobs are gone, except for seasonal work, they will come in for seasonal work.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
frixx
08:22 PM on 07/12/2010
It's time to make the enforcement of immigration laws the litmus test for voting people in to office.

After all, if they cannot enforce laws already passed, why draft more laws that will not be enforced.

Additionally, ever notice how these new laws get more bloated and complicated with each new version of a 'comprehensive' solution.

"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood."
- James Madison
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CelticMajic
The answer lies in each of us individually
04:48 PM on 07/10/2010
What stage of moral reasoning are the illegal immigrants?
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
06:47 PM on 07/10/2010
There is a lot of moral reasoning involved in a decision to immigrant unlawfully. Certainly some of it is very high level moral reasoning since it involves choices about whether or not a family lives in poverty or enjoys some modicum of a decent living stemming from being paid for hard & difficult work. Mexican laborers for example weigh the risks of being caught & sent home against the lack of employment & opportunities for their families. Researchers who study immigrants' patterns of behavior tell us that often these workers have "sending" communities in Mexico & "receiving" communities in the USA that facilitate their transnational journeys & sojourns. Before 9-11 the border was very porous & there was a lot of back-and-forth of workers. When 9-11 happened, the border became more difficult & many workers wouldn't return to maintain family ties, knowing that they probably could not cross back to work in the USA. These patterns need to be considered in comprehensive immigration reform.
07:21 PM on 07/10/2010
So what the author presented was a false choice. It's not live or die, but whether they "live in poverty" or not. Billions in this world live in poverty. You claim they have the right to come here. {And I know you will tell me that's not what you said, but it is what you said, without equivocation.}
04:36 AM on 07/11/2010
These sending and receiving communities sound like they might be in violation of federal RICO statutes.
04:52 PM on 07/11/2010
on the Hierarchy of needs, they are on the bottom rung, still trying to get security, food and shelter. Moral doesn't have anything to do with it at this point.
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CelticMajic
The answer lies in each of us individually
08:59 AM on 07/12/2010
If the article was about Maslow then your answer would have been on target. Unfortuneatly the article was targeting those in America that wish to see the law obeyed and portraying them as somehow less moral.
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katmeyster
Proud practical progressive atheist
03:43 PM on 07/10/2010
The law was created and written by the wealthy and privileged, for the wealthy and privileged. It has only been through great struggle that the ideals of equality have been applied, although sparingly and selectively. So the people most disadvantaged by the structure of the society and laws are promoting them by using the lowest level of moral reasoning. And those in power are more than happy to not engage the higher levels of moral reasoning, do not attempt to educate those beyond the most base logic, and do not grapple with the larger issues of justice and morality in society. It is a perpetual dumbing-down that I don't see changing any time soon. This appeal to the lowest level of morality has always been used in history to control the populace.

But great article, by the way; it's too bad most people won't get it.
05:23 PM on 07/10/2010
So the United States has an obligation to issue work visas to anyone who is willing to come here and work? And so if they don't get that visa, it's our fault they come here illegally? That's what she said, correct? Can you address that? And maybe some people do "get" what she's saying, but they disagree with it. Naturally, those people are not capable of your deep intellectual capacitity. By the way, the law was "created" by the people we elected to lead us, like it or not.
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SonicUltimate
05:34 PM on 07/10/2010
The entire system needs a change, and has for decades. Yes, we should allow all comers a reasonable legal route to work and/or live here. However, these people should also be saddled with more responsibility to contribute to our society. If they don't contribute, they should then be required to leave. Make returning after being deported a felony on par with tax evasion/fraud as it is similar.

However, more of the same old BS immigration policy (like SB 1070 in AZ) isn't going to fix anything. All it does is escalate the situation.
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katmeyster
Proud practical progressive atheist
08:22 PM on 07/10/2010
Yes. If we are willing to accept cheap goods and services provided by a hidden underclass we have welcomed (we really haven't tried to prevent illegal immigration), then we should be willing to provide the people with legitimacy so they can have the basic dignity and rights of all human beings. Yes, it is our fault they are here and we should come to terms with that. There is a reason why nations become wealthy, and it is on the back of their poor neighbors or other nations and people that have been exploited. This is what is meant by looking at the structure and employing higher moral reasoning. To know that you are responsible for the conditions of other people, and take accountability. And by the way, our legal system is based on English Common Law by means of the merchant class needing to gain power under a monarch -- not really a democratic system at the time.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
03:17 PM on 07/10/2010
Let's really tackle the question of the morality of unauthorized immigration. Our immigration laws are designed to keep the rich from being annoyed by the poor. US immigration law doesn't come down from Mt. Sinai written on stone tablets. Crossing the border without inspection by immigration authorities or overstaying a legal visa after the authorized time period allowed are not sins. They carry no inherent immorality or even antisocial behavior. Illegal entry & visa violations are irritating to the socially dominant majority because they are acts of ethnic insubordination. They are cases where the poor & disadvantaged disobey the rules set out by the wealthy society to protect itself against the "burdens" they might create or the cultural changes they may bring about in society because of their ethnic & cultural differences. When we debate comprehensive immigration reform, we must carefully weigh the consequences of the "punishments" we impose on society as a whole as well as individuals. We will never have mass deportations, so we must provide pathways to legal status so that immigrants can become integrated into our society & live stable & prosperous lives. It is not immoral to want to live the American Dream.
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katmeyster
Proud practical progressive atheist
08:25 PM on 07/10/2010
Excellent post.
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vippy
Carpe Diem!
10:03 PM on 07/10/2010
The American Dream has long died and the illegals were part of it by depressing the wages. We cannot secure the borders, so every few years we have to make 12 million people legal from here on out. Just do away with immigration, what for anyway?
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missouriwatcher
military veteran, veteran teacher, father, grandpa
11:04 PM on 07/10/2010
I would think perhaps the best way of dealing with the "problem" would be a new approach toward illegal drugs since their illegality seems to be what is fueling the violence south of the border. Legalize them, then control them in some fashion as is alcohol. Then work on making the economies of all our neighbors and our own economies which produce goods--not just services--which they are all capable of doing and are good at; then, promote an open border policy. Just a "pipe dream", I know, since greed has such a stranglehold on everyone; but a good dream, at least.