Shattering The Meat Myth: Humans Are Natural Vegetarians

Going through the comments of some of my recent posts, I noticed the frequently stated notion that eating meat was an essential step in human evolution. While this notion may comfort the meat industry, it's simply not true, scientifically.

Dr. T. Colin Campbell, professor emeritus at Cornell University and author of The China Study, explains that in fact, we only recently (historically speaking) began eating meat, and that the inclusion of meat in our diet came well after we became who we are today. He explains that "the birth of agriculture only started about 10,000 years ago at a time when it became considerably more convenient to herd animals. This is not nearly as long as the time [that] fashioned our basic biochemical functionality (at least tens of millions of years) and which functionality depends on the nutrient composition of plant-based foods."

That jibes with what Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine President Dr. Neal Barnard says in his book, The Power of Your Plate, in which he explains that "early humans had diets very much like other great apes, which is to say a largely plant-based diet, drawing on foods we can pick with our hands. Research suggests that meat-eating probably began by scavenging--eating the leftovers that carnivores had left behind. However, our bodies have never adapted to it. To this day, meat-eaters have a higher incidence of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and other problems."

There is no more authoritative source on anthropological issues than paleontologist Dr. Richard Leakey, who explains what anyone who has taken an introductory physiology course might have discerned intuitively--that humans are herbivores. Leakey notes that "[y]ou can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand.... We wouldn't have been able to deal with food source that required those large canines" (although we have teeth that are called "canines," they bear little resemblance to the canines of carnivores).

In fact, our hands are perfect for grabbing and picking fruits and vegetables. Similarly, like the intestines of other herbivores, ours are very long (carnivores have short intestines so they can quickly get rid of all that rotting flesh they eat). We don't have sharp claws to seize and hold down prey. And most of us (hopefully) lack the instinct that would drive us to chase and then kill animals and devour their raw carcasses. Dr. Milton Mills builds on these points and offers dozens more in his essay, "A Comparative Anatomy of Eating."

The point is this: Thousands of years ago when we were hunter-gatherers, we may have needed a bit of meat in our diets in times of scarcity, but we don't need it now. Says Dr. William C. Roberts, editor of the American Journal of Cardiology, "Although we think we are, and we act as if we are, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us, because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores."

Sure, most of us are "behavioral omnivores"--that is, we eat meat, so that defines us as omnivorous. But our evolution and physiology are herbivorous, and ample science proves that when we choose to eat meat, that causes problems, from decreased energy and a need for more sleep up to increased risk for obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer.

Old habits die hard, and it's convenient for people who like to eat meat to think that there is evidence to support their belief that eating meat is "natural" or the cause of our evolution. For many years, I too, clung to the idea that meat and dairy were good for me; I realize now that I was probably comforted to have justification for my continued attachment to the traditions I grew up with.

But in fact top nutritional and anthropological scientists from the most reputable institutions imaginable say categorically that humans are natural herbivores, and that we will be healthier today if we stick with our herbivorous roots. It may be inconvenient, but it alas, it is the truth.

Click here for great-tasting recipes and meal plans, and here for tips on eating more vegetarian foods.

Comments

[Chico41]

Just more Vegan propoganda. The China Study is regarded as a joke by the respected scientific community.

[dhinds]

Some years back I shared a corral with a butcher who did his own slaughtering and the post the cows were tied to was just outside my back door. I lived there for years and know something about the subject matter.

As for what diet's healthier, I spent years studying that too -EMPIRICALLY- so the opinions I've offered here have a considerable basis in my own experience,. and I arrived at the conclusions I reached in 1966.

Does anyone here think that I would have been able to apply those conclusions for over fifty years if the map didn't fit the territory? Even so, I'm not here to proselytize, I'm here to tell you what I know to be true from experience, and lots of it.

Admittedly, I haven't told you what I eat (just what I DON'T eat), but then, nobody's asked.

[Roguer]

Ok, I'll bite ; )... what do you eat? Sorry but I assumed based on your comments and support of Ms. Flynn that your diet was similar to hers.

I did find an ironic item. She said that "I don't know you... but I love you"

Followed by you saying you had met her in person and had tried to hire her but she was tied up with University and family...

[dhinds]

"Ok, I'll bite ; )... what do you eat? "

Today's input:

Fresh Pineapple & Sweet-Lime Juice

Seedling Mexican Thin-Skin Avocadoes

Paste-type Tomatoes

Mamey

Guamuchiles (fruit of a tropical leguminous tree)

White Sapote

Seedling Mangos

So far. I might have some seedling apples, pears, and maybe some dates.

"Sorry but I assumed based on your comments and support of Ms. Flynn that your diet was similar to hers."

Apparently neither of us eat meat, but I don't know what she eats. It would be impossible for me to maintain my diet in her location so I'm sure our diets are significantly different.

"I did find an ironic item. She said that "I don't know you... but I love you"

I'm sure she was relating to my post. The culture of death (and trying to build on it) makes interacting with other life forms practically impossible. There's no way for you (or anyone else) to comprehend this if you haven't lived it.

"Followed by you saying you had met her in person and had tried to hire her but she was tied up with University and family..."

Right - a beautiful sociologist here in Guadalajara that decided to be a vegetarian when she was 2 (that's right, TWO) after seeing a movie depicting a slaughter house - and her parents went along with it. Her name is Edith.

I don't know Eriyah except from her posts here this week but we're from the same state, not far from WV.

[Roguer]

More food for thought

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-ruxin/hungry-cows-hungrier-peop_b_217883.html

[Roguer]

Food for thought....

http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/64/fat-is-where-its-at/2

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/18/fat-can-be-good-for-you_n_217374.html

[nightwind928]

Although vegan diets have become very trendy, to suggest that we are prewired for consuming plant matter alone is another wacky notion that those on the fringe like to bolster to support their lifestyle. From the earliest records of the history of mankind humans were hunters. Remains in ancient caves support this fact. The native Americans, who lived closest to the earth, hunted game. The human body requires a certain percentage of fat in it's system.
Meat available today, in the average market place, is contaminated with antibiotics, hormones and poisions. But a lot of the same arguments can be made about vegetables as well. Pesticides and chemical fertizilizers are used in agri-business and leech into plant matter today in large quantity and just because produce is sold at a higher price as "natural" dosen't make it so. It's hard to trace the history of a head of lettuce when it's on a grocers shelf. Geneticly altered plants are so common today that it's almost impossible to find produce that hasn't been bio engineered for better yield and disease prevention. You can grow stuff in your own garden but the origin of the seeds are questionable at best. Being a vegitarian dosen't guarantee you longer life or better health despite claims of the Vegans. Our food source has become dangerous through technology because of high demand for low cost food. I see no real evidence, supported by any accepted scientific fact that suggest we are all decendents of grazers.

[May68]

On the contrary. Studies prove that people who follow a plant based diet are 50% less likely to develop heart disease, and have 40% of the cancer rate of meat-eaters. These are HUGE differences!! Also, the only "blue zone" in the US (region where people live the longest, healthiest lives) is in Loma Linda, CA where the highest concentration of 7th Day Adventists live, who follow plant based diets. Frankly, I don't need scientific data to know what is best for my health - instinct told me from childhood. I am the only one in my extended family not taking cholesterol meds, had a heart attack, breast or colon cancer or diabetes (all are diseases associated w/ animal protein).

If people had to kill animals themselves, the world would practically all be Veg. Slaughterhouses are literally hell on earth. If people saw them, they wouldn't eat meat for ethical reasons alone! Suicide rates are highest for slaughterhouse workers (many are illegal immigrants, released prisoners, and sadly the mentally ill -yes, it's true, I have seen it)

I can find "nutritional value" in anything, even the chair I sit on. What works best with the physiology and psychology of the human body is clearly a plant based diet. Ms. Freston responded well to many issues in her above article, but there is much more. You are right - we should grow our own food. Humans must get back on track. Returning to plant based eating is a part of it.

[dhinds]

What about rheumatism? Do you get much of a build up of uric acid when you don't eat meat? What about arthritis? Trichinosis? Tapeworm?

Pigs and chickens are omnivores and assassins - they also eat fecal material, as do dogs and so do you, if you drink milk (pasteurized fecal material, of course).

[dhinds]

Not being a creationist, arguing about "what we were created for" seems irrelevant, and I agree that the article was written to promote a lifestyle. That said, I consider your claim that anyone suggesting:

"consuming plant matter alone is [projecting] another wacky notion that those on the fringe like ..." to be groundless. There's nothing wacky about maintaining a diet that doesn't subject our bodies to the health problems eating meat entails and being on the cutting edge is hardly being "on the fringe".

In any case, as far as I'm concerned, the real issue is whether consuming meat is in fact required or even, advisable.

You claim:

"The human body requires a certain percentage of fat in it's system"

But this ignores the fact that there are plenty of non-animal sources for the lipids needed.

After more than forty years of meatless existence, I would have had problems if what you claim was really true.

[peeturd]

That was meant to be: "I'm not saying being vegetarian isn't healthier for you", it generally is. But that's beside the point.

[Roguer]

#6

You may feel you are the leaders of the next chapter of human evolution and feel you are superior to the rest of mere old world, tied to our ancient, and prehistory. But evolution is a physical change in a species, not a moral one. The moral majority is similar in its beliefs. Neither has the right to impose its beliefs on anyone, especially through law. Believe what you wish. I am personally an Objectivist, and classicist. And I am at peace with myself and accept all consequences for my actions and inactions.

I wish every one here peace and understanding of their place in the circle of life... eventually we all will be feeding the plants.

[dhinds]

"But evolution is a physical change in a species, not a moral one"

Where the biological, evolutionary, ethical, objective and subjective merge is here and now - at this moment, and the next.

Do you surf?

[Roguer]

"Do you surf?"

I live in WV on a farm. Not much time for traveling to the beach.

I grew up near Lake Michigan but did more body surfing, and beach volleyball (helped pay for college). Some wind surfing there but little board surfing.

So I guess the answer would be, no I do not surf. But I figure you knew that.

Lunch time over... time to get back to work.

[dhinds]

"I wish every one here peace and understanding of their place in the circle of life..."

WHOSE understanding?

"eventually we all will be feeding the plants."

For now the plants feed me, and do so with NO distress.

[Roguer]

It was a comment of good will... sheesh.

[Roguer]

#5

To follow your logic of believing that all life is precious and should not be destroyed is denying one the most basic laws of nature. To follow your thoughts to their logical conclusion would mean that humans should not eat anything lest they destroy life, for when you consume that aforementioned evolving seedling apple you are destroying life for the greed of your own material body. The only solution then would be to sew our mouths shut and die (wait then we would be killing ourselves and karma does not like that either).

Peace does not come from denying our place in the world or the purpose of the world around us, but rather from understanding our place in it and understanding why we exist in the first place.

Seeing that you like quotes... “since nothing is nourished which does not partake of life, what is nourished will be the ensouled body insofar as it is ensouled, with the result that nourishment (i.e. food) is related to the ensouled, and not coincidentally” (De Anima ii 4, 416b9-11) Aristotle

[dhinds]

You have made a few valid observations but failed to recognize a number of viable and available (although perhaps not so readily in your location) alternatives and therefore, have arrived at some unfortunate and incorrect conclusions.

I'm sorry but i can't go into the details before this coming weekend.

[dhinds]

Which has now arrived. You bit and asked, and I then told you what I bit that day. All raw, and no tissues required by the plant for it's own life cycle. Nothing from grafted trees and nothing transgenic, nothing frozen and nothing canned. And the motives aren't based on morality - it works for me and has done so since 1966 - which doesn't mean the moral basis isn't there and in fact, the morality explains why what works works, even if it isn't supposed to (supposed by who)?

But as I said, I'm not proselytizing, I'm informing - I've nothing to sell, just recommend - except I had to leave the USA to do it, year round.

[Roguer]

A little information about my farm and the county I live in. I understand you grew up in a near by state. I am very familiar with that state and wish it were removed from my drive when traveling back to Mi to visit.

The county is actually a very large valley. Due to this fact and its location on the eastern side of the Appalachians, there is about 180 days of growing season (most times 165 due to late or early frosts). Also we receive about 10% less sunlight due to the terrain than an area that is flat. It is close to the longest day of the year and the sun went down at 8:45.

My farm is located directly over the cave system (45 miles of mapped passages) with five entrances on my land alone. This is a Karst region with limestone rocks randomly jutting from the soil. Removal of these rocks is discouraged as that would create potential sink holes of which there are several on my land. Most of my land has 25% or greater slopes. The NRCS and Soil Conservation folks discourage plowing due to the fact that soil washes away so very easily. Again due to the underlying cave structure terracing is not an option. Matter of fact, I have to sign a paper every year stating that I will not till my land. Also tilling releases CO2 from the soil.

[Roguer]

The USDA preferred use of this land is in the form of grassland. Grassland apparently will become important for carbon sequestration and considering my family has conserved trees as well, the general consensus for this region is that the best use is livestock production or forestry.

Silt run off is a very big concern in this region, not only for soil conservation but because of water quality. Another issue is soil type. Tradition septic systems (public sewer is not available, hard to run pipe through solid rock) are not condoned because most of the land here will not perk. Most of my soil is a silt loam. When it is wet, it is soupy, when dry, hard as a rock.

I am sorry to say that many of your suggestions are not feasible or practical. Your suggestion of switching to horses for plowing and getting rid of the cattle is not practical either. There are enough horses, training and selling them is not a win situation in today's market. Using them as draft animals would not be profitable. A man can plow about an acre a day with a horse. Draft size horses or much harder on the soil and pastures due to their size than cattle. Additionally, there is no market for them and PeTA's goal is to eliminate livestock production and that includes horses.

[Roguer]

Eliminating cattle would eliminate my source of fertilizer for the crops I can and do grow.

I have no intention of selling my family's farm, it has to be profitable for me to keep it. In order to do that I must use the land as efficiently as possible while constantly improving and maintaining soil quality. The USDA, the soil conservation district, and the NRCS all agree that I am doing this.

It is convenient that you are able to live in the region of your choice and one that has year around crop production as well as being the leading corn, soy, and cattle producing state in your country. Traditionally, more people of more tropical regions eat more fresh fruits and vegetables than more northern climes (which tend to be more livestock based). We do a lot of home canning to save our production for the winter months, it is a necessity from both an economic and health stand point. I will not purchase produce from a grocery or Wal... I have tried selling my produce to the local grocers.. Krogar.. IgA...they have no interest and get all their produce from a central warehouse.

[dhinds]

"my family's farm has to be profitable for me to keep it. In order to do that I must use the land as efficiently as possible while constantly improving and maintaining soil quality. "

The most efficient use of land in terms of production, soil stabilization and improvement would be tree crops (they grow vertically, provide ground cover and a habitat for beneficial organisms of all sizes, their roots recycle nutrients from below through the leaves and once established, allow for the presence of grazing / browsing animals.

Aside from draft and riding horses, other animals cultivated for non-meat applications include sheep.

In the Greater Cleveland area the local chains like Heinens, Dave's and Gavarras carry a lot of locally grown and organic produce (as does Whole Foods) and Farmers Markets (i.e. Shaker Square on Saturdays) are very popular and even your paintings could be put on display.

My location is far from environmentally ideal - it's the seat of government and I work with development policy issues (but don't legislate dietary regulations any more than Eriyah does from the Attorney General's office).

Aside from Agrarian Reform laws, Mexico doesn't invade other sovereign countries, has no capital punishment, no re-election, public funding of electoral campaigns, direct election of it's President and elections are cleaner (thanks to an autonomous institute formed by all political parties that oversees them), and has outlawed discrimination based on gender, age, race, religion, socio-economic or physical condition or preferences at the Constitutional level.

[Roguer]

#4

Yes, they feel, but they are not rational. Yes, if they are stressed at the moment of death, that affects the quality of meat (in cattle this is called a "dark cutter"). It is in the best interest of the industry that animals are not stressed or suffer at the moment of their death. Are factory farms wrong? Yes, you have no argument from me on that.

To claim to be morally superior and now more evolved than the rest of the rest of the human race is a basic flaw in your philosophy. To place the life of an animal, bred to be food, above the life of a potential human (fetus) is morally reprehensible in my opinion. To believe that you are outside the cycle of life is not being closer to god. Many cultures, philosophies, and religions believe that upon consuming, either plant or animal, that they are also consuming the spirit of that entity. Even modern religion believes this symbolically in the form of communion.

[Eriyah Flynn]

ever see a movie called The Island?
it has a really great analogy that covers this.

In short - Just because you brought it into the world for your purposes really doesn't matter to them in their consciousness.

Stop trying to evade the argument. I'm not talking about abortion here, its terrible, it should be prevented from being an option through responsible behaviors and birth control, and its irrelevant to this subject. We are talking about unnecessary killing of sentient beings for profit and a taste preference. Totally different.

[Roguer]

I typically do not watch movies, do not watch TV, I avoid modern literature (most is so very poorly written). My book collection is classics and philosophy (Dickens, Tolstoy, Aristotle, Plato, Virgil, and the most modern would be Rand and Tolkien).

I took foreign language in school (Latin for 5 years and a year of ancient Greek) I have read everything from Caesar to Homer in their original language.

Your arguments don't bear answering for the most part because they are based on propaganda. My arguments are based on historic fact and personal experience. Your philosophy is hypoc.ritical at best.

And your lofty goals of eliminating livestock production will be as successful as the war on drugs. If you want to fight against industrial farming, fine. Remember that the result will be world wide famine and economic collapse. If you are living on land and not producing something from it, you are wasting it and the resources that it takes to maintain it and yourself.

[Roguer]

#3
In the end your argument is religious, moralistic, and philosophical. So I will address this, as I have only touched on it. And having my degrees in Art, ancient history, and philosophy, I think I might be qualified to do so.

I would point out that humans are animals and in order to survive we must consume to sustain our lives. As human kind has evolved into a thinking, rational being, science has proven that this was due to the consumption of meat, what ever the source. For several thousand years humans have tilled the land and domesticated and bred livestock and plants to feed ourselves as our number flourished.

Denying the fact that you are human, and denying that everything has a purpose in life, makes you less enlightened not more. Aristotle, Plato, the Native American, and on and on. They understood that everything must die in order for things to live. They also understood that for all things there is a purpose. The purpose of livestock is to consume grass and convert it to something we can consume, thus supply humans with the nutrients that we have evolved to need.

[dhinds]

"The purpose of livestock is to consume grass and convert it to something we can consume, thus supply humans with the nutrients that we have evolved to need."

How convenient. Lucky you, unlucky them; and with all that money tied up in livestock, how could you have it any other way.

[Roguer]

Yes... I consider myself very lucky...

I own my farm, not the bank. I owe nothing to anyone, financially. Pay cash as I go.

I work outside everyday.

I wake up in the morning and nature dictates what I do for that day.

I do not have to work in an office. Or for a boss.

I am not dependent on government hand outs or donations.

I get lots of exercise, and eat what we grow. Very few trips to the grocer.

I am not tied to a cell phone (don't own one, don't want one)

I have the most wonderful wife that cherishes me and our way of life. She is the female version of me. I get to spend everyday day with her instead of having to run off to a job that I come home tired and cranky from.

I will be able to take care of my mother, who lives with us in my grandparents house, as she gets older.

I am rarely stressed, but then again a daily dose of sitting in the pasture with the herd grazing around me is very peaceful. Or milking a cow.

Yup... I count myself as very lucky.

[May68]

you said, "The purpose of livestock is to consume grass and convert it to something we can consume, thus supply humans with the nutrients that we have evolved to need"

Seems like a HUGE waste of resources to feed grass to livestock just to eat the grass. Kind of like filtering water through a sewer and then drinking it. Or trying to get from Denver to Chicago via Texas. I'd prefer to eat the grass directly. You seem like an avid learner and have great taste in literature (which is odd that you haven't learned about the great vegetarian philosophers and intellects yet). You should take a nutrition class or a biochemistry class, I think you would learn a lot.

Humans have gotten WAY off track. this isn't a trend. We are simply getting back on track.

Oh look - a squirrel in my backyard! Funny how I have no desire to kill it with my "claws and fangs" and super fast bi-pedal movement (sarcasm) because I have a wonderful plant based meal prepared for our family. Now if we were in an ice age and there was nothing else to eat - then I'd think about it. Humans are herbivores by design, omnivores (actually scavengers) by CHOICE. and yes, eating MEAT is a trend of cultural affluence - this has been studied greatly.

I just thought of a book for you - read the China Study by Dr. T. Colin Campbell. Lots of "proof" in there.

[Roguer]

Sorry to tell you, but I have killed, cleaned and eaten squirrel. Ironically, tastes like dark meat of a chicken. My grandmother used to cook it.

I am not going back into the herbivore/omnivore argument. You may believe what you like, I will believe what I like. There is plenty of science supporting my point.

I would point out however that humans do not have the enzymes for digesting plant cellulose.

I have mentioned what is in my library, I do not have expendable resource to spend on books as such as you describe. Thank you, but I concentrate on literature that has stood the test of time. I am not trying to rude but, honestly, I do not have the money to invest in that sort of thing.

[Roguer]

#2

dhinds, you have told me that planting grafted fruit trees is wrong, sorry cant access my email at the moment for direct quote, but paraphrasing, it is an injustice to the plant and interrupting the natural evolution of an apple.

If all life is so very precious, how can you justify consuming anything, plant or animal.

Your scientific arguments for not eating meat, etc. have been frequently reputed, again I am not telling you what to put into your body.

Eriyah, you have claimed horses and camels have wolf teeth and they are herbivores and concluded that we also must be because we do not have the pronounced canines of a carnivore (you have not seen my step-son smile) Yet you dismiss the fact that both horses and camels (camels have the same family tree as pigs) descended from omnivores and their canines are carry overs from prehistoric ancestors...

I will not go into the rest, because of lack of time and space, and because the proof is in our biology, history, anthropology, etc.

[dhinds]

"you have told me that planting grafted fruit trees is wrong,"

The article's title: Indications of Metabolic Imbalance in Budded/Grafted Trees and their Fruit (California Rare Fruit Growers Yearbook, 1973)

And yes, the practice represents a failure to intervene in a manner that builds on the ability of the tree to produce life-giving substances without compromising the structural integrity (the physical and physiological identity) of what is after all, an individual organism much like you and me (except better).

You may feel you have the prerogative (if might makes right) and maybe you do, if and when you're willing to pay the price, if you are wrong - as I and others believe you in fact, are.

Incidentally, the USDA confirmed the existence of the imbalance.

Today (Wednesday) is a busy day for me here and I won't be replying further to this thread until late tonight or tomorrow.

[Roguer]

By eating the fruit and seeds of plants you are interrupting the purpose and nature of the plant. Yes some plants spread their seeds in this fashion, but unless you are digging through your own feces and spreading those seeds, you are disrupting the evolution and natural process.

[Eriyah Flynn]

I don't recall saying "wolf" teeth- I used the name "canine", which refers more to tooth position in the mouth. Further definition of canine is type- long pointy sharp or short blunted. Ours by comparison to wolf teeth or carnivores are short and blunted. Read the article Kathy references The Comparative Anatomy of Eating. It details quite a bit in addition to the teeth, the other factors in tandem such a jaw structure and muscles supporting the ideal factors for different dietary behaviors.

Although this argument is an important consideration, I think the more compelling ones are having to do with the majority of people who are disturbed by killing. We are disturbed by violence. We are grossed out by rotting flesh and bloody dismembered carcass. Only cooking it makes it safe or even palatable to eat.

Only habit, the lack of critical thinking, ubiquitous presence and incessant onslaught of lies and brainwashing of animal protein/products by those with a stake in the interest of animal exploitation has maintained this abomination in our culture. Thankfully, millions are waking up, discovering how delicious, nutritious, peaceful, and sustainably and healthy plant-based foods are and are quickly modifying behaviors toward more peaceful and civilized living.

To remain stubbornly entrenched in the status quo is to risk greatly our evolutionary progress for a sustainable, peaceful people and planet.

[Roguer]

I hate to tell you but wolf teeth and canine teeth are the same. If you had been around horses, you would know this.

Of course I am defensive of my lively hood and choice of diet. It is your intent to eliminate them by spreading false information and fear mongering. Using a moralistically superior attitude which does nothing but turn people off.

You have also described people like me as being akin to "mur.der.ers, rap.ists, and child mole.sters". But yet you support the killing of human fetuses for population control and things like mercy killings, capital punishment. I have yet to see where yours or anyone else has a right to preach your superior evolved morality to anyone. If anything you have changed my stance on the Pro life movement and how I feel about vegetarians in general.... You are no better than the Jerry Falwell or the man who shot Dr. Tiller.

I used to support g.ay rights... I now see that this was a mistake as well. Because if we are to evolve then depending on the argument you take: it is not a choice (then there is genetic deficiency), if it is a choice (then it is a crime against nature). So yes, you have influenced someone, negatively.

Evolved to the next stage, I don't see it.

[Roguer]

Moreover, all forms of birth controls are unnatural as well (the natural purpose of all lifeforms is to procreate and advance the species.) Including self mutilation for the purpose of pregnancy free sex.

Funny how we can influence people with our words and actions... Thank you for helping me see the light.

[Roguer]

Once again...

Hyracotherium lived in the Ypresian (early Eocene), about 52 mya (million years ago). It was an animal approximately the size of a fox (250–450 mm in height), with a relatively short head and neck and a springy, arched back. It had 44 low-crowned teeth, in the typical arrangement of an omnivorous, browsing mammal: 3 incisors, 1 canine, 4 premolars, and 3 molars on each side of the jaw. Its molars were uneven, dull, and bumpy

Throughout the phylogenetic development, the teeth of the horse underwent significant changes. The type of the original omnivorous teeth with short, "bumpy" molars, with which the prime members of the evolutionary line distinguished themselves, gradually changed into the teeth common to herbivorous mammals. They became long (as much as 100 mm), roughly cubical molars equipped with a flat grinding surface. In conjunction with the teeth, during the horse’s evolution the elongation of the facial part of the skull is apparent, and can also be observed in the backward set eyeholes. In addition, the relatively short neck of the equine ancestors became longer with equal elongation of the legs. Finally, the size of the body grew as well.

[Roguer]

You also discount and do not take into account that human canines are blunted not because we are evolved herbivores but rather because of the use of sharp rocks as tools, our ancestors did not have to naturally select for large flesh tearing teeth. We used tools to harvest animals.

More over there are several creatures that use other creatures and nourish them for their own use. I am looking for links.

Whales will circle and concentrate krill for the harvest. This is common in nature.

BTW, There is a German delicacy called a "Cannibal sandwich". Raw hamburger, slice of onion, salt, pepper, on a slice of bread. I ate them as a kid, at home and they were common for the soccer club I played for. I still eat them to this day. So cooking meat is not a requirement for consumption: it is a luxury.

[Roguer]

"Although this argument is an important consideration, I think the more compelling ones are having to do with the majority of people who are disturbed by killing. We are disturbed by violence. We are grossed out by rotting flesh and bloody dismembered carcass. Only cooking it makes it safe or even palatable to eat."

Majority?... The same argument was used by morality police of Jerry Falwell. You should be disturbed by violence and the things you describe. Funny these things are common in many places... I would think you could apply your queasiness to an abortion clinic... gang wars... wars in foreign countries... school shootings... Life is full of death and things that are disturbing, that's life... to try to shield yourself and others from them is unrealistic and fantasy.

I understand you are passionate about your "cause", but there a many evils in this world that deserve your attention that you are appear to be condoning. You like to paint the livestock world as one of gore and horror sharply contrasted with the "nutritious, peaceful" world of vegetarianism...

This is a popular form of propaganda. It was used by the Bush administration: "Arabs = ter.rists" "Americans righteous and good" By FDR "Japanese= hea.then mon.sters" "Germans = Na$i but.chers" and on and on. Very good you have learned your lessons well.

[dhinds]

"If all life is so very precious, how can you justify consuming anything, plant or animal."

You haven't asked me what I've eaten today.

[attilathehoneycom]

I've been a strict vegetarian for over 30 years - so were my kids and all our pets. I first began this diet because a friend of mine suggested that I see his chiropractor because of my unresolved health problems.. The first thing this Doctor said to me was, " I can look at your skin and tell you what your problem is. It's your diet. What do you eat? I told him that I ate meat, fish, eggs and drank at least a couple of martinis a night, etc...He told me that I would feel better in two weeks if I'd be willing to give this vegetarian diet a shot - no meat, fish or eggs and eat foods high in iron...and lay off the martinis! This I did and within a week, I felt like a new person. Now I've discovered something else that works wonders - water.I drink 12 glasses of water daily and that too has cleared up some problems...the least of which is working 15 hours a day on little sleep. Now I am a vegetarian because of philosophical reasons - the first being that I don't want to make my body a graveyard for animals. I can't stand the thought of how much animals suffer when they are killed - and that fear going into my body. I'm not on a soapbox here - just sharing my experience.. PS: I don't belong to PETA! LOL!
AttilatheHoney.com

[Roguer]

I could only hope that my death is as quick and painless as when my cattle die. As mentioned in earlier posts, I observe the process to make sure that their death is quick and stress free.

As far as health matters go, alcohol is one of the worst poisons one can put into ones body. It destroys the liver which essential in processing foods and cleansing the blood. A couple martinis a night borders on alcoholism. And eliminating alcohol from ones diet would have more to do with ones miraculous recovery than anything else.

I am glad you are healthier.

[Animalia Libero]

"stress free" death. That's funny.

[azrix]

Dr. Temple Grandin has done a lot of work figuring out how to make slaughterhouses more humane.

http://www.grandin.com/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5271434/

[Eriyah Flynn]

well that certainly is an attempt to ease one's conscience.... anyone who's ever seen the inside of a slaughterhouse really wouldn't use "humane" in the same sentence..­..imagine, mom, dad, grandma or little bro meeting their end in such a way. "Humane"? I don't think so...

[gregokin]

I agree there are ethical, health, and environmental issues to consider when eating meat, but since Ms. Freston’s argument is that humans evolved from and into vegetarians and that meat eating is “relatively recent” in our species, let me just address the bad science:

1) The intestines in an elephant can be 19 meters and can weigh about 4500 kg. An adult male human wieghs about 80 kg with an intestine of about 6 - 8 meters. Thus the elephant intestine/mass is 0.004 (meters/kg). For a human has 0.09 meters/kg. So no, its not true that herbivores have longer intestines (relative to mass) than meat-eaters.

2) The Clovis Point, a spearhead used for hunting dates to 13000 - 14000 years ago.

3) Burnt bones started to appear around 40 – 100 thousand years ago when humans started to control fire. As soon as humans could control fire, they started cooking meat.

4) The oldest shell middens are about 140 thousand years old at sites like Blombos Cave.

5) Burnt bones in Swartkrans cave in South Africa dating to 1 million years ago appear to be from human-tended (but not controlled) fire.

6) Our closest relative, the Bonobo will eat invertebrates and small vertebrates such as flying squirrels and young forest duikers.

7) Our second closest relative, the Chimpanzee, regularly forages for ants and also hunts red colobus monkeys.

So, going back since we diverged from Chimpanzees, we’ve been meat eaters.

[gregokin]

Sorry, saw a typo (created when trying to shorten:

1) The intestines in an elephant can be 19 meters and an adult make elephant weighs about 4500 kg.

[gregokin]

By the way, Chimpanzees also engage in cannibalism. Any argument about what we "should" eat from nature is fraught with difficulties....

[deepblue13]

Well said gregokin,

Could anyone explain to me how i am a natural vegetarian and I have prominent canines(teeth). That seems illogical. Is there another example in nature of a herbivorous animal with sharp canines throughout their life.

Also, I have read on vegetarian websites that humans don't have large canines. In my experience people vary. Some people's canines are barely distinguishable; others, like myself, have prominent canines that could easy tear flesh if needed.

[SusanMalmstrom]

Eating vegetarian is better for you and for the planet. It's also cheaper--beans and brown rice are about as cheap as you can get. Don't forget that red meat stays in your system for months--this cannot possibly be good for you, especially considering the hormones, antibiotics, etc. If possible, buy your eggs locally or raise your own chickens. Eggs are a great source of protein when they come from happy chickens. The world cannot afford you carnivores! Look at the fertilizer runoff, all of the grain being used to fatten cattle--shear waste (on your waist). Common sense, please! For more, go to http://planetcheapskate.com.

[Calinative]

Red meat does not stay in your system for months. That is another vegan lie.

[powerlift2201]

While I don't disagree with you that a vegetarian diet might be cheaper and some farming tactics are not the best for our environment, I have to disagree with you on the whole read meat stays in your system for months comment. If you actually understood the human digestive system you would understand the farsity of that comment. Food is digested and ingested in the process of at most about 2 hours. The rest of the time the non-ingested food moves through the large intestine and is excreted as feces (after most of the water has been extracated) in another 2 to 10 hours. If any food stayed in our intestinal tract for months we would suffer constant constipation. The fact that our large intestine uses paristaltic activity along with mucous lining it is very difficult for any food to get "stuck" there.

[dhinds]

When you said:

"I have to disagree with [Susan] on the whole read meat stays in your system for months"

You're referring to the _Digestive System_. I assume Susan's reference included the rest of the Systems: Nervous, Circulatory, Respiratory, Reproductive, Muscular, Cartilaginous, etc.

The critical question of course is whether an animal's violent death affects the quality of the nutritional elements extracted from it, as well as the body's ability to eliminate the toxic and indigestible waste products not present in foods with a botanical origin.

In short: Does extracting the nutritional content of meat carry a high price in terms of the quality of life and overall health? Many of us that have walked both paths believe that this is in fact case and the opinions and insults of those that haven't paid that price carry little weight, here or elsewhere.

Since the body renews its cells over a seven year period, the presence of meat in an otherwise clean system is likely to last much longer than the periods you describe.

[azrix]

Like has already been said, any food waste is excreted within a day or so. Also, all dietary hormones are absorbed and processed by the liver. What do you think birth control pills are? Government subsidies and regulations have changed the American Midwest from grassland, that used to feed lots of bison, to a grain based mono culture. Maybe we could just not grow so much corn and instead grow grass for cattle. An outrageous idea, I know.

[PatGund]

No, for me it's a long slow death from protein deficiency.

Why? Because I am unable to process non-animal protein. And my body's reaction to beans and most legumes (including soy) is to get rid of it as fast as possible.

Red Meat. BTW, takes about 12 hours to digest and up to 24 hours to expel from the body. The idea that it "hangs around for months" is a myth, pure and simple.

[zeeeke]

Meat supplies essential, protective nutrients not found easily or at all in vegetables. Historically there has never been such a thing as vegetarianism in animals including humans. There has always been a significant amount of insects, insect parts and eggs inadvertently being ingested with the plant matter. Even the cow has billions of protozoa present to digest the plants which in turn die and supply nutrients not available from its diet.

[Jimboy17]

Whatever are you on about? You jump from discussing the dietary habits of animals to digestive symbiosis which while they are related, are not interchangeable. There are plenty of vegetarian adapted organisms. If I give you 99 white marbles and one red one, are the marbles red, or white? You seem to be claiming that they are red, which is the wrong answer. The panda and the koala, for example are evolved to eat one food source only: bamboo and eucalyptus respectively. If there is no bamboo and eucalyptus, they starve.

[dhinds]

He's confusing Kingdoms: Bacteria, Protoctists and Animalia are in separate Kingdoms according to the Taxonomy postulated by Lynn Margulis

(Acquiring Genomes - p. 54 Basic Books, 2002)
(Symbiotic Planet - 1998)