iPhone app iPad app Android phone app Android tablet app More

Featuring fresh takes and real-time analysis from HuffPost's signature lineup of contributors
Kent Greenfield

GET UPDATES FROM Kent Greenfield
 

Pardon Me, But Your Liberties Are Stepping on My Freedoms

Posted: 07/26/2012 5:43 pm

Even though the tragedy in Aurora is still fresh on our hearts and minds, it is already clear that there is no political will to enact any significant change in the regulation of guns. Even a ban on assault rifles or high capacity magazines seems beyond Congress's ability.

We may go through the motions for a few more days of asking what regulations we need, but in the end we will be back where we started: living in a nation where the "liberties" of a tiny fringe of gun nuts outweigh the freedom of the rest of us to live in safer communities.

Let me hasten to say that I am not an absolutist -- either way -- on the gun question. I grew up hunting, and I still own a couple of guns (though I do not keep them in my house). I understand why some people bristle at the notion that no one should own a firearm.

On the other hand, I also understand that you do not need assault rifles, high capacity magazines, or armor-piercing bullets to hunt. Unless, of course, you're hunting people.

The reason we're in this situation of regulatory inaction is not the Second Amendment. Even after the 2008 decision in District of Columbia v. Heller, you don't have a constitutional right to any kind of gun you want. So the reason we're here is politics.

It has always confused me why the fringe of the gun-owning public who objects to even the most reasonable gun regulation has such political power. One reason, perhaps, is that they have so successfully equated gun ownership with "liberty." Any restriction on that ownership, even if it is mild, reasonable, and better for society as a whole, is decried as a government encroachment on our constitutional freedoms or natural liberty. This is what Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson, a Republican, meant the other day when he said efforts to ban high-capacity magazines or to keep guns out of the hands of "demented" individuals would "restrict our freedoms."

So let's talk about what freedom means.

One version of freedom is you get to do whatever you want, and government is (or should be) powerless to stop you. This simplistic version of libertarianism drives the gun-nut-fringe belief that any reasonable gun restriction is a violation of some kind of natural right. It is also behind many objections to the Affordable Care Act -- the reason why the broccoli example was so powerful was because of the fear of government making us do something.

Note how truly outrageous this version of liberty truly is. These rights -- whether to buy assault rifles or to refuse to pay for health insurance -- are seen as so powerful that they win out even when their exercise hurts others. People can buy assault weapons even though it means that society is less safe. People can refuse to buy health insurance even though the costs of their illnesses will be borne by those who do.

Eventually, this version of liberty drives us toward the law of the jungle. It's fine if you don't want to buy health insurance, but don't expect anyone to come to your aid when you're in a car accident or need a kidney. If the prevalence of assault rifles makes you feel less safe, carry one yourself. (Luke O'Dell, spokesman for the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, said the way to have avoided the Aurora shootings is for others in the theater to be carrying weapons as well.)

But here in America, we long ago decided that freedom was more robust than this simpleminded "liberty" espoused by the libertarian fringe. Sometimes, freedom requires a democratic, collective decision and cannot depend on individualistic action alone. When Franklin Roosevelt articulated the "four freedoms" -- freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom from want, and freedom from fear -- he knew that some freedoms depended on keeping government in check (speech, worship) but that some (want, fear) depended on government stepping in to help out.

Think about what this means: freedom is not just a situation in which government is powerless; rather, freedom is something that society identifies as a goal and strives for together.

And if we want to live in a society that is free from fear, we cannot have guns so readily available that anyone with a Joker fantasy can gun down scores of innocents in a movie theatre.

So the question of which gun regulations should be put in place is not a question of how much liberty will be lost. It's a question of how much freedom will be gained.

 
 
 

Follow Kent Greenfield on Twitter: www.twitter.com/kentgreenfield1

FOLLOW POLITICS
Even though the tragedy in Aurora is still fresh on our hearts and minds, it is already clear that there is no political will to enact any significant change in the regulation of guns. Even a ban on a...
Even though the tragedy in Aurora is still fresh on our hearts and minds, it is already clear that there is no political will to enact any significant change in the regulation of guns. Even a ban on a...
 
 
  • Comments
  • 65
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Comments are closed for this entry
View All
Favorites
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2  Next ›  Last »  (2 total)
02:26 PM on 07/30/2012
"Sometimes, Freedom requires a collective, democratic decision....."

Doesn't sound like freedom to me.

Your agenda is perfectly clear when you resort to calling those who value the Bill of Rights more than you as "Gun nut, Fringe believers."
You paint me as somehow unstable and untrustworthy. I guess anything to disarm your enemies.
photo
eaglespark
"Why waste time learning? Ignorance is quicker."
06:15 PM on 07/29/2012
The "Assault Weapons" Scam by Jennifer Freeman

http://www.libertybelles.org/articles/awscam.htm
09:13 AM on 07/29/2012
""liberties" of a tiny fringe of gun nuts outweigh the freedom of the rest of us to live in safer communities"

This is a false dichotomy.

The tiny fringe of people who harm other people with guns do not do so legally.
There is no right to shoot people or freedom to kill.

Our freedom to live in safer communities is at odds with the people who don't follow the law.

Attributing the problem to a few fringe "gun nuts" mischaracterizes the problem.
There are a great many "gun nuts" who harm no one. The problem is with the actual nuts, and their intent to cause harm to others.

It seems that even "the most reasonable gun regulation[s]" of which there are many, haven't stopped the intent of those who cause harm.

Which proposed "most reasonable gun regulation" is there that can deter a person who is only interested in harming others, and is willing to break any law to do so?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
HisXLNC
No.
02:59 AM on 07/29/2012
"People can buy assault weapons even though it means that society is less safe."

How do "assault weapons" make society less safe? The homicide rate is at a 30 year low.
03:50 PM on 07/27/2012
Again, the parasitic media is feeding off tragedy to advance an agenda. Criminally insane people will never run out of ways to manifest their violent fantasies. Solutions are not found by focusing on the tool used any more than obesity is about silverware. In America, we don't set the bar for the liberty based on the acts of a few madmen.
photo
LIBIntOrg
Mother Libertarian Organization
12:11 PM on 07/27/2012
Thanks for the article. A thinkpiece on the subject shows how people are using Libertarian measures the author does not examine at our site.

For info on people using voluntary Libertarian tools on similar and other issues, please see the non-partisan Libertarian International Organization @ http://​www.Libertarian-Internation​al.or g ....
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
smp276dp
free us from the craziness
11:38 AM on 07/27/2012
If you could fire ten shots from your gun and put in a freshly loaded clip in seconds for ten more rounds. We need assault rifles in our streets for what reason? I don't see how anyone could justifiy the use of a rifle intended for war. This is where we go wrong as a country. Talk to me about right please. When those people on that moive just lost loved ones, and had their right infringed on. The gun lobby has one very narrow lens they expect us all to see through........NO NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
02:14 AM on 07/29/2012
What current military infantry uses semi-auto only firearms? I don't know of one so semi-auto AR15's and AK47 are not weapons of war. So, if a nut plows his car into a crowd of people does that infringe on peoples rights.
photo
eaglespark
"Why waste time learning? Ignorance is quicker."
06:29 PM on 07/29/2012
"We need 'assault rifles'... for what reason? I don't see how anyone could justifiy the use of a rifle intended for war."

The AR-15 rifle--
"The AR-15 rifle system [popular with civilians] is that of a heavy-barreled, highly accurate, long range rifle for both target shooting and the hunting of small vermin and predators. There is an almost endless variation of in-between styles of the AR-15 that can do double duty as a defensive and precision rifle..." --Jeff Quinn

James Holmes had an AR-15 semi-auto rifle. Where I live (Eastern Oregon, Western Idaho) that specific rifle (among others that are functionally similar) is actually used for varmint control on farms and ranches. It was not "intended for war". The Colt M-16 was intended for war. This is just another example of vilifying a particular firearm by calling it an "assault rifle". The AR-15 is not an assault rifle. Any semi-auto rifle that uses detachable magazines is dangerous in the hands of a criminal or violently insane person. I am agreeable to laws that would stop those people from having weapons. I will never agree to punishing (in effect) me and millions of other legal gun owners for the crimes of others by banning firearms that we legally own and have committed no crimes with.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
legitane
Mankind's biggest sin, Ignorance
11:20 AM on 07/27/2012
Your rights end where my begin...
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
hagagaga
You can't take the sky from me.
09:44 AM on 07/27/2012
This is the logic used to justify the Eighteenth Amendment. How did that work out?
11:47 AM on 07/27/2012
thats a rather absurd comparison. no one is talking about initiating some sort of "gun prohibition." we have a second amendment that now, unequivocally, protects your right to keep a handgun at your house. making assault weapons, 100 round drums of ammunition, etc., illegal for civilians is really more like making drunk driving illegal.

you can't drink everywhere. you shouldnt be able to take a gun everywhere. our taxes pay for police forces so we don't have to play wyatt earp - that's a privilege. we shouldn't have to worry that the angry guy sitting next to us at the bar is packing heat. there's vast room for compromise on gun control - the assault weapons ban used to be federal law - but unilateral refusal to compromise on the pro-gun side. can we even get more rigorous background check legislation and/or screening for potentially mentally ill purchasers? the denver shooter was denied admission to a gun club b/c he raised eyebrows. just think if he'd been subjected to that scrutiny when he tried to buy guns.
photo
Brian Bender
Moderate Independent
05:49 PM on 07/27/2012
An "Assault Weapon Ban" is definitely a "gun prohibition". Owning an "Assault Weapon" and a 100 round drum doesn't even compare to drunk driving since drunk driving is always dangerous and kills 10,000 US citizens each year. Owning an "Assault Weapon" and 100 round drum in itself is not dangerous to the owner (or anyone for that matter) and they have been used to killed 12 people in the last 200 years.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
HisXLNC
No.
03:11 AM on 07/29/2012
"you can't drink everywhere. you shouldnt be able to take a gun everywhere. "

The Century 16 theater in Aurora, CO is a perfect example of a place where you can't take a gun. And that idea worked so well.
06:37 AM on 07/27/2012
And I know it sounds cliched, but seriously, gun bans do not stop the criminals, they really do only disarm the law-abiding citizens. Look at the 1997 North Hollywood shootout. Or the gang member who shot at police in a California town using an illegally-converted SKS assault rifle back in 2005 and a large magazine. A lot of good the laws did there.

"High-capacity magazines" is an arbitrary term. To the gun control people, it means a magazine holding more then ten rounds. But that's their opinion. And people can most definitely have a need for a "high capacity magazine." Look at the guy in Arizona who had four men, three armed with pistols and one with an assault rifle, try to break into his home. He fought back with his own firearm and they ran away. This was in broad daylight. But what if it had been at night, and what if more then one of them had an assault rifle? What if it was a gang initiation where they can't fail or face violence from the gang and thus a firefight breaks out? The average person in particular may miss due to nerves and adrenaline in such a situation, and an old person especially is not going to be quick at reloading or anything. Being able to just slap in a 30, 40, or 50 round magazine is a lot more re-assuring then if you only have five or ten rounds!
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
hagagaga
You can't take the sky from me.
09:40 AM on 07/27/2012
SKS isn't an assault rifle. Other than that, you're right.
photo
Brian Bender
Moderate Independent
05:50 PM on 07/27/2012
It is if you are the Oakland PD and want to demonize guns, gun owners, and want to pretend that the SKS is an EVIL AK-47!!!! Look up the Mixon case for proof.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ginger23
Sempre ubi sub ubi.
10:05 AM on 07/27/2012
Thanks for so clearly understanding the point the author was trying to make. Not.
06:36 AM on 07/27/2012
The Second Amendment is not about hunting, it is so that citizens can form militias when needed, protect themselves, and in extreme cases, resist a tyrannical government. And the gun lobby does not represent any fringe, it represents a large swath of the American people, that is why it is so powerful.

Also, assault rifles are already highly-regulated.They are classified as machine guns under gun law, and as such are a privilege to own, not a right. The AR-15 that Holmes used and Remington 870 are not assault rifles. AR-15s are the civilian version of the M-16 assault rifle, and are a semi-automatic rifle. They look the same as the M-16, but mechanically are not, as they have no automatic fire capability. They are used regularly for hunting. Remington 870s are used for everything, hunting, police, military, home defense, sport shooting, etc...many hunting rifles have been adopted from military models. Hunters have been doing that for decades.
09:30 AM on 07/27/2012
It's not hard to get the springs to make the AR-15 into an automatic. I have a friend that actually did it. I don't care if he does, he's sane, intelligent, responsible, and can actually shoot accurately. I have a problem with people who are crazy, or have no gun knowledge, or can't shoot the broad side of a barn, owning guns. Would it make it tougher to get a gun, yes. Do I think it will be better, yes.

Psych test
Written test on gun safety, maintenance, etc
Firing range test

Pass those, you can get a gun. You don't, no gun.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
HisXLNC
No.
03:05 AM on 07/29/2012
There are only a couple of springs in an AR-15 and neither of them have anything to do with their ability or inability fire automatically.

Now you may be able to screw with one enough to make it malfunction and fire uncontrollably until the magazine is empty.
09:46 AM on 07/29/2012
"It's not hard to get the springs to make the AR-15 into an automatic." -- No1Complainer

The reciever of the AR is different from the reciever of the M16. A few springs don't turn the AR into an automatic rifle.

"I don't care if he does, he's sane, intelligent, responsible, and can actually shoot accurately." -- No1Complainer

Converting a semiautomatic rifle to fully automatic is against federal law.
If he successfully managed to do so it took more than just a few springs, and now I doubt both his, and your, sanity.

For your knowledge of, and failure to report, the activity, you get to be an accomplice.

Obviously you are one of the people you have indicated having a problem with.
I think a little time in a federal detention center for you and your friend will indeed make it tougher for you both to get a gun.
02:38 AM on 07/27/2012
How many more prisons will we have to build for this new war on another inanimate object? The war on drugs was started for the same reasons...to make us safe. How is that working out?
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
07:34 PM on 07/26/2012
Why are you banning a weapon that isn't not used in crime. Is it cause they are generally painted black and you are racist. Seriously, Assault rifles are used in less than .5% of all crime, so why ban them and California has proven that limiting the number of rounds in a magazine doesn't stop criminals
02:38 AM on 07/27/2012
Its all about putting more kids in jail. The prison guards union is huge and powerful.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
11:18 AM on 07/27/2012
Most of the states I know about the prisons are over capacity and they have mandatory overtime for the line staff. Why would the unions want to make it more dangerous for their people. Also here is a little secret, they don't have to try and put people in prison it will just happen with all the laws we have now.
03:43 AM on 07/27/2012
Because that .5% of the time they ARE used, the damage they cause is horrendous.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
11:19 AM on 07/27/2012
If you really believe that, you should probably stop smoking the bong and pay attention to the news and not tv shows and movies.
photo
Brian Bender
Moderate Independent
05:53 PM on 07/27/2012
Rifles kill less people than fists in this country and "Assault Weapons" are a tiny fraction of the rifles used in crimes.
07:06 PM on 07/26/2012
People seriously need to put things into perspective. This type of terrorism is very rare, and in the grand scheme of things, is barely a fraction-of-a-fraction of deaths in the country. The bigger issue is that by denying law abiding citizens the ability to own guns, you are in fact preventing their ability to protect themselves from harm when they need it most. This example was in fact a PERFECT example of two things; 200+ police officers called in to protect the people were unable to do so, because they can't be there when you need it most; and second, armed men (officers in this case) ultimately made him give up without a fight. Hmmm... interesting.

This man, like all the others, don't run into a gun store, shooting range, or police station looking for a fair fight. They prey on the weak, and seek the path of least resistance. The sooner people start realizing they have a social obligation to protect themselves and others, the quicker these evil men will be put down in the ground.

The media and the ignorant need to stop sensationalizing guns as the problem, and look inward as to why they can't man-up and face reality of their inability to protect themselves.
10:08 PM on 07/26/2012
This type of terrorism is not rare.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

Our murder rate with firearms is as high as such countries as El Salvador, Mexico, Zimbabwe, and South Africa. Wow those countries are really liberated too
04:12 AM on 07/27/2012
I love statistics... in that they can always be skewed to favor any particular opinion or agenda. Note the comments. :-) The statistics you have pointed out are actually pretty awesome for the US, considering our population, and that drownings, car accidents, and choking on chicken nuggets match or exceed gun violence. You'll also find that shootings by police officers are also considered homicides, and are often included in these type of stats, further skewing he truth. But I recommend you read "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America" for a much more accurate study. Irrefutable evidence.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. You're either prepared to survive when violence finds you, or you're not. Just don't expect everyone else to lay down their life so easily.
06:57 PM on 07/26/2012
Although these crimes are obviously tragic, they're also extremely anomalous. The base rate (i.e., prevalence) is extremely low, especially for crimes committed with assault rifles or high-capacity magazines. Therefore, given diminishing returns, in order to reduce the prevalence even slightly, we would likely need very, very extensive limits on certain related rights and privileges.

In fact, if the author's rationale can be generalized, it would seem to imply that we as a society would be better served by banning alcohol (which didn't work well previously and hasn't been very successful with many drugs).

Perhaps the author could at least have provided some evidence that past restrictions have curbed firearm-related violence.

Finally, the author's goal of a utopic society free from fear is admirable, but unrealistic. We will not eradicate threats, crimes, harms, terrorism, etc., so I don't think it serves his point to talk in those sorts of absolute terms.