Diane Ravitch is one of the most visible advocates in the United States today for quality public schools, and one of the most outspoken opponents of much that is being done in the name of "school reform."
Ravitch, education historian and author of the bestselling book The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education recently agreed to answer a few of my questions:
What got you interested in education issues -- was there a specific incident or family experience?
I have been interested in education as long as I can remember. My first paper in a political science course in college -- in 1956 -- was a study of the influence of a far-right fringe group on school board elections in Houston, where I attended public school. I have been writing about education since the late 1960s. My first book was a history of the New York City public schools, published in 1974.
In your education career, when were times you felt most discouraged? What got you through those moments?
I have never been more discouraged than I am right now. I have been lecturing this past year, and I have witnessed the profound demoralization of teachers across the nation in response to the vituperative, ill-informed and mean-spirited attacks on them. I am discouraged above all by the absence of any national officials willing to stand up for teachers. The current anti-teacher, anti-public education rhetoric is downright disheartening, and it is painful to acknowledge that both political parties have joined in, as has the national media.
What gets me through these times is my sense of history. I know that this: that many of the "reforms" are ill-considered, that the "reforms" that target teachers are doomed to fail, and that eventually this too will pass. Yet I worry about the lives and reputations that will be ruined before our leaders come to their senses.
In the face of all the policy battles, many of us teachers can feel discouraged. What is your best advice for teachers who might have days, weeks, or even months feeling like that?
I am asked this question whenever I meet with teachers, which is often. I urge teachers to hang in there, to focus on the social value of the work, to remember why they entered the profession, and to cling to their ideals. I also tell them that this is no time to be shrinking violets, but is a time to let your voice be heard. It is a time to write letters to the editor, write comments to blogs, contact your Congressman and your Senators and your local officials. Do not let the forces of ignorance, the wealthy and powerful and clueless "reformers" destroy the profession and privatize public education. Too much is at stake. Don't agonize, organize. Alone, you are only one voice; united with other educators and with parents, you can change the agenda and stop the attacks on education and educators.
Some of your critics say you spend all your time criticizing without offering constructive alternatives. What is your response to that kind of critique?
Public education is under attack; so is the education profession. My critics would prefer that I not say so, but I think it is demonstrably true. I am a historian and I try to ground my critique in history. My critics think that anyone who disagrees with their destructive policies is a "defender of the status quo." I think the "reformers" represent the status quo. It is now 10 years since the passage of No Child Left Behind. This law made testing, accountability and choice the law of the land. The law and the policies it spawned have proven ineffective, divisive and costly. The "reformers" want to change the name of the law -- perhaps call it Students First, Children First, Learning First, whatever -- but continue to fire principals, fire teachers, close schools, and privatize schools. All of this is wrong.
No high-performing nation is pursuing this punitive path. I don't believe in any quick fixes. I have proposed constructive alternatives:
I believe that all children should have a balanced curriculum in the arts and sciences, physical education and health. We must improve schools and strengthen the education profession instead of closing schools and destroying the profession. Every district should offer high-quality pre-K programs for all children. Teachers should have more and better preparation and mastery of their content. They should have good working conditions and adequate resources, including reasonable class sizes. All principals should have experience as master teachers. All superintendents should be highly experienced educators.
Instead of blaming schools for all that is wrong in school and society, we as a nation must take action to improve the lives of children; instead of saying that poverty is just an excuse, we should try to help families and do whatever is possible to reduce poverty and its related disadvantages. None of these is a quick fix, but together they represent constructive alternatives to the present course.
What do you see as the brightest rays of hope -- policies, people, organizations, etc. -- do you see for public education these days?
When I visited San Diego in November, I was very impressed by the collaboration I saw there among different stakeholders. The teachers' union was working together with the district leadership, and the school board, and together they are trying to create a vision of community-based school reform, involving parents and local communities. I saw a spirit of "it takes a village to educate a child." Will it last? I hope so. In Cincinnati, I was impressed by a collaboration of civic and educational organizations called STRIVE. The spirit again was one of people working together to improve education from many angles.
I was reminded in these places that the current "reform" movement is extremely divisive. It sets parent against parent, in battles for space in public buildings, and its sets young teachers against older teachers, and it sets the media and the public against teachers and public education. We won't make any genuine progress until everyone who cares begins to work together towards the common goal of educating children and improving their lives.
Thanks, Diane!
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It is time to leave behind the factory model school & take advantage of the new available technologies. No more:school buses, school buildings, classrooms, grade by grade "progress," textbooks, lessons, multi-guess tests, units, credits, class lessons, seat times-hours, days, years etc. We can now offer quality education to all anywhere, any time with individual guides & tutors & perhaps supplemented with our excellent museums, aquariums, zoos and some of cable TV. Give each child a hand held i-pad with apps for everything they will need along with their individual guide; then indeed no child will be left behind and we will deliver real education to all.
The was a good article on this in the Huffington Post by Ed Madison. You can find it at
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ed-madison/virtual-teachers-vs-real-teachers_b_813438.html
While I cannot argue the doing away with the factory model of schools, I do not believe we are yet to the point of a virtual school. The efforts I have read about always seem to focus around monetary savings. When I read that as the motivator, I understand that learning and student value are not being considered. Even if they are considered, they are secondary, at best, to those anticipated savings.
Still, I do wish we supplemented each child with tablets and access to a library of content. Adding this to their learning, would, I believe, be a significant benefit.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/education/fl-lynn-edu-summit-20110127,0,6589320.story
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/diane-ravitch/ravitch-the-pitfalls-of-puttin.html
Then, my heartfelt thanks to Diane Ravitch for all of her incessant writing, traveling and lecturing. Singlehandedly, she has forced the great ship of media-driven, low-information publicity about "our failing schools" to stop moving forward. Now, we have to turn it around. Ravitch is correct when she says "don't agonize--organize."
Here's how:
http://www.saveourschoolsmarch.org/
Education is a basic civil right. It is at the heart of the premise that anyone can get ahead in America. Yet we allow the rich to choose to take money from the funds that support that dream. Children are bleeding and going to continue to bleed --- and it's not the children of the rich.
Isn't that what is already happening in many of our cities? I fail to see how closing public schools ( a la Mayor Bloomberg ) and replacing them with so called "smaller" schools or charter schools (many that fail, as well) , contributes in any way towards uplifting the education of those that need it most.
But we all know that the underlying supposition is a lie. Teachers do matter; great ones make a difference, mediocre ones do little and the bad ones harm our kids. Teachers know it and so do Unions. The latter is paralyzed by the instinct to protect the least of its members; the former not well organized enough to make the change. Demanding greatness from all teachers is a good thing.
It deserves a fairer hearing than Ravitch has ever given it.
Isn't a little too much of a coincidence that ALL the poorly performing schools also are in the most impoverished neighborhoods? 15 years ago I worked as a substitute at the "ten worst" schools in Los Angeles and I know what it is like. I couldn't handle working under such difficult circumstances. Those teachers should be applauded for their hard work and dedication. What is being done to those teachers is a tragic injustice.
Personally, I feel that it is easier for these politicians and reformers to blame teachers for the achievement gap, rather than proposing and implementing policies to eradicate poverty, and other myriad problems present in the inner cities of America.
It CAN'T be that so many of them ( including our President), are that naive and clueless. Rather, it's easier to blame teachers and the unions, rather than do the hard work needed to solve these problems in education themselves.
GM? their union benefits drive the price of cars up by thousands of dollars.
FANNIE MAY? packing weird derivatives emptied your pension and your paying for the lawyers
USPS? their ledger sheet has been found wonting
AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL? Ok, Ronnie fired them
Ravitch was in favor of NCLB and changed her mind.I believe she is the fairest and soundest mind in education
Teachers and their union contracts are under attack from the reformers in the clothing of Rhee/Gates/Broad/Walton and they are starting at the top (by placing administrators/superintendents) and the bottom (using kids and parents in poverty as sympathetic pawns ). Teach for America is also participating by getting "the best and the brightest" into schools as teachers and moving them into admin positions. They've all dragged the politicians along with them. If they are successful in bringing about their type of reform we will evolve into ea new version of haves (at the charters) and have nots (everyone else).
age 8 - 3rd grade
age 9 - 4th grade
age 10- 5th grade
age 14- 9th grade
This combination (low or no parent support and social promotion) is a disaster. It works in middle and upper class areas because someone is making sure that children do homework and do well on tests. Children are allowed to remain with peers because they say that holding them back hurts their self exteem................no holding students accountable and responsible to meet standards hurts their self esteem even more. It is easier to pit students against teachers apparently.
Social Promotion is the policy in Southern California...........try getting an adminstrator or parent to agree to retaining a child..........it won't happen. Last year at a middle school, every 8th grader went on to high school. The students that had 2 or more Fails on their report cards did not participate in the graduation ceremony. I call it passing them to prison!
Now if Duncan, Rhee, Klein, Obama, and all the other education "reformers" would only look at the facts, the way Ravitch has, and realize that the policies they're pushing are destructive and counterproductive, perhaps they'd be worthy of respect, too.
Diane, perhaps I could speak directly to Cathy Black and point out to her the many things I have learned from doing in depth social interviews and observing so many wonderful teachers in their classrooms. I would like to point out to her the huge number of foster children, the frequent moves families make from location to location due to financial disruptions,family crises and other things, the amount of divorce and separation of parents and their unemployment and under-employment. Also, within families that experience these situations, there is a strong likelihood that many children will not come prepared to pursue a curriculum that has actually accelerated/lost enrichment and spontaneity since I was a child due to their cognitive issues, health issues, family issues and speech language issues. Hence, the need for even more special education referral since these educational standards have arrived.Or if the referrals are not actually made, then, we experienced the dumbing down of the test and cheating on a large scale by desperate school principals.
Thanks Diane, I am glad somebody finally had the courage to... oh wait, this was exactly your gospel in the 90s and you did as much as anyone to fuel the charter school/NCLB rhetoric as anyone. Thanks for eventually coming to sense but it is too little, too late. You have discredited yourself those who believe in the important role that public education plays in a democratic society. People who defend charter schools and testing/accountability still cite your previous work.