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Meditating On Sin At The End Of The Year

Posted: 12/28/11 07:00 AM ET

I have come to believe over and over again that what is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised or misunderstood. That the speaking profits me, beyond any other effect.
Audre Lorde

O Lord all my longing is known to you. My sighing is not hidden from you.
Psalm 38

I first approached the question 'what is sin, and what does it mean to be a sinner' as a theological problem when I was a seminary student back in the early 1990's. A logical place to begin such an inquiry for the most part my concerns, at least at the beginning were intellectual ones. I wanted to know what was wrong with us as a human race. What was the substance of our tendency to stray so far away from what was 'good' or 'right' or 'true' such that violence, degradation and the perpetuation of systems of social injustice -- on a large and small scale -- seemed to be the recurring and inevitable theme of human existence? Why God, I queried, are we like this? WHAT is wrong with us?

At that time the desire to understand if not alleviate the grandest injustices of human existence fueled my interrogations. Racism, classism, sexism, homophobia -- these obvious distortions of our individual and collective capacities to recognize, engage or cultivate the full humanity of ourselves and one another -- these sinful-'ims' begged for a critical spiritual analysis of their causes and continuations. And while my liberationist commitments animated my belief that such queries could make a practical difference in the struggle to interrupt their worst social and political effects, still I recall approaching the question from a decided scholarly remove. The facts, apostle Paul, St. Augustine, Martin Luther, and because I was trained at a liberal seminary - James Cone, Rosemary Ruether, Gustavo Gutierrez -- just give me the theological facts.

And then in 1999 I began to starve myself to death, and with an experience of sickness that infiltrated into every fiber of my physical, mental and spiritual being, Christian sin-talk no longer appealed to me as a grand theological problem to be interrogated. Instead 'what is sin' and 'what does it mean to be a sinner' became intensely personal questions for me. They became personal not because I equated having an eating disorder, or indeed any sickness with being sinful. By the grace of God, I was never tempted to go down that road. But rather it was the window my sickness provided into what it means to be undone by a thing; to be twisted by a desire; to be unmade by a willing whose force pulled me away from the recognition of the good thing God had created me to be in the world, that gave me a sudden and visceral sense of what is wrong with us.

I am a sinner and I sin; we are sinners and we sin when we would stand outside of, or in opposition to the fundamental rightness of our status as beings created in the image and likeness of God. Genesis 1:31 says, 'And God saw everything that She had made and indeed it was very good.' But when we lose sight of not only God's goodness all around, but the personal and singular aspect of that goodness we are called to embody for ourselves, and with and for one another in the world we fall into sin. We are, by God's design and for God's holy purposes His own very good and beloved people. But it is our tendency to fall so utterly and completely outside of this knowledge; to forget at the most profound and intimate levels of our lives that this is who we are - broken in fact, but beloved indeed -- that is the substance of our unmaking.

I recall what it felt like to fall away from this knowledge, and the larger backdrop against which that falling away took place. Caught up in the usual struggle to believe in and enact my belovedness as a Black Queer girl in America, one day the enormous weight of this struggle just became unbearable. 'Dear God, how can I continue to stand upright,' I cried, 'when there are so few practical and real-world affirmations of my existence on which I can consistently rely?'

I let myself feel the pain of the persistent failure of Christian communities on either side of the so-called Left/Right divide to embrace me as an integral as opposed to an exotic member of the faith. I let myself feel the anxiety around and take on the disdain for my flesh that is in part a sorry outcome of the historical ordering of the tradition. And as these feelings began to well up inside of me I responded, not by beating a path toward God's always ready embrace. Instead I began to long for, desire and actively refashion my being as something small, starved and disappearing right before the unseeing eyes of almost everyone around me.

An Eating Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified was the official diagnosis attached to my condition. And today, more than a decade later, when I can claim to be on the other side of that experience, I neither dispute the categorization nor the blessing of the medical interventions that saved my life. But there is also that part of the story that begs to be told beyond both the clinical certainty of a label of sickness and the kind of grandly theological articulation on the human condition that I first pondered.

How best to fully speak of it remains unclear; but twenty years after I first began to wonder 'what is sin' and 'what does it mean to be a sinner,' I know that our small and seemingly private tales of brokenness and shame; of fear and longing matter. They matter, not because we are called to heap blame on ourselves, or anyone else because of them. But we are called as a people, broken in fact, but beloved indeed, to bear witness to all that we are, as a testament to the fullness and richness of our Maker.

 
I have come to believe over and over again that what is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised or misunderstood. That the speaking profits m...
I have come to believe over and over again that what is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised or misunderstood. That the speaking profits m...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
CMR64
u hurt my feeling
06:42 AM on 01/12/2012
I am not a sinner I am a Christian who sins...
10:21 AM on 01/15/2012
Then you are a sinner
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
CMR64
u hurt my feeling
06:38 PM on 01/15/2012
nope a sinner is not saved ....I am saved ..and I am not perfect
07:25 PM on 01/15/2012
Nope, sorry to have to contradict you a second time, but you are not saved yet. Hopefully one day you will be saved and enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but right now you are still a sinner, because you sin. The only time you will know for sure that you are going to Heaven is when you die. Obviously you have turned your life around and you are doing your best to live a good life as best you can, and I admire you for that. You are in one of those Protestant churches, which came out of the 16th century revolt and you now believe the doctrine, heretical doctrine of Luther and the other reformers. What you need to do now is follow on your way until you arrive at the one true church founded by Christ, the Roman Catholic Church. For info see my last 300 posts (comments) or so, where I was trying to explain to another poster the error of his ways.
01:47 AM on 01/08/2012
I believe it is best to not meditate on sin, rather we do well to meditate on whatever is good & righteous & uplifting.
08:39 PM on 12/31/2011
The emptiness we have inside can result in a psycho-physical reaction like the eating disorder the author describes. All of us have a longing for the perfect, infinite, all-loving God. All of us were intended to be in relationship with Him. That relationship is broken by sin since the beginning, when Adam and Eve refused to follow the commandment of God, preferring the counsel of the tempter. The effect of sin on our world is enormous, yet there is an answer, there is a Redeemer: Jesus Christ.

We are instructed from the beginning on what is "good". We, created in God's image, are good, as is the earth and all creation. The only thing that is "not good" in the description of creation is that man is alone. He is given a companion, a helper - the woman. This is what is intended for mankind and for our future, for one man and one woman to join in a life-long one-flesh union, to be fruitful and multiply, becoming co-Creators with the eternal God.

What is sin? Is it not our refusal to live our God-given purpose? When sexual relationships become recreational; when we refuse to obey His commandments, is that not sin? Sin brought death into the world, and we all suffer from it, experiencing violence, pain, sickness, and death. It was not meant to be so. Obedience to a loving God is life-giving. Turn back to Him in repentence and love.
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TotalTranquility
Show the world that love is still alive, be brave.
12:30 AM on 01/03/2012
So you are saying that loving homosexual relationships in God's eyes, are the same as loving heterosexual relationships. That's nice :)
03:27 PM on 01/03/2012
No, actually I said: "...what is intended for mankind and for our future, for one man and one woman to join in a life-long one-flesh union, to be fruitful and multiply, becoming co-Creator­s with the eternal God."

This is the true marital relationship, the two become one, open to life, both unitive and procreative - this can only happen between one man and one woman. Heterosexual relationships that are loving but outside marriage are missing the dimension of a life-long marital commitment. Homosexual relationships cannot fulfill this possibility by nature. So although these relationships may be loving, it is not what God has shown us by imprinting it on the human body, and it does not fulfill His command.

The spousal meaning of the body. Natural, beautiful. Many of us have fallen short of living out its truth, myself among them. That doesn't mean it is all the same in God's eyes.

John Paul II's Theology of the Body is the answer to a deeper understanding of human sexuality and love.
07:40 PM on 01/05/2012
Re: your question yesterday, "why did God make me the way I am...."

Why are any of us made the way we are? Why are some beautiful, some have terminal illness, some handicapped, some shy, etc? I am not sure, but I think what matters is how we handle the challenges we are given and how we treat one another. Christians are called to meet a standard set by God. Meeting that standard often means that we must practice self-control and also mercy towards others, With God's grace, both are possible although not always easy.

Since sexual intimacy is a gift given to be shared within the marital union only, that means that single people as well as those who are attracted to same sex partners would be call to remain celibate, and so are priests, nuns, monks, etc. Again, with God's grace, this manner of self-denial is possible, not always easy. We also have His mercy if we fall.

As a Catholic, prayer and the grace of the sacraments of confession and the Eucharist give me strength. For others, healing prayer might give them strength. A favorite of mine is to go back in my memory to times when I suffered hurt and invite Jesus into that memory. I ask Him for a message in prayer about where He was at that time and often receive an insight that allows me to let old injuries go. This brings healing and helps me to forgive.
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SecularAdvocate
Search "The God Trick" on youtube
07:52 PM on 12/31/2011
How depressing that in the year 2012 an article so devoid of rationality and berserk with utter nonsense can pose as being relevant to human affairs.

There is no God. As will become more and more apparent to all as we progress and flourish as a species. It makes me weep that it's taking so long.
03:59 PM on 12/31/2011
The word "sin" is a religious word and has so much emotional baggage that few take it seriously but those that are part of specific religious sects.
Like most here in our country, I come from families that have a history near 300years in this country. My diverse ancestry is filled with people that were part and multi-generation preachers from tens of different Christian sects. Each had particular things to say about sin. Most except for the Quakers in my family were very big on the list of sins and what would happen to one when one died.
I respect my ancestors religious traditions and fanaticism that made them be pioneers over and over moving westward. I wouldn't be here without them and what they did. About the time of the Civil War, many of my ancestors on one side stopped attending organized church institutions. The reason was the obsession with sins and everlasting life.

Instead of harping on the sins and everlasting life, make this life one of kindness and compassion by loving thy neighbors, practicing forgiveness, helping the least among us and letting go of material goods obsessions. By this practice of serving, one serves oneself and makes one a better person in the practice. You'll find that one can practice kindness for oneself far more easier with this path. This was a practice of my mother's grandmother (who raised her).
She also had a saying ..."child, this too, will pass".
01:32 AM on 01/02/2012
Nice speech. Let’s all hold hands and have a group hug. Your point reveals a truth that I for one would like to point out. In your blog you write...

"Instead of harping on the sins and everlasting life, make this life one of kindness and compassion"
Words so beautifully used to shift ones focus from a realization that we are all sinners and the repentance of sin is essential towards eternal life with God. In a few paragraphs you so eloquently have preached the gospel of Lucifer. God is irrelevant, man does not need God and your eternal life with God is irrelevant.
11:11 AM on 01/02/2012
"Preached the gospel of Lucifer"? That is facinating. I only pushed forward the behavior that Jesus promoted regarding the Golden rule and forgiveness and helping the least among us while being less obsessed with material goods.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
08:13 PM on 01/02/2012
I agree. Thanks for your perceptive analysis of the "good without god" sermon redux.
11:33 AM on 12/30/2011
Sin is an offense against God's law, and requires the belief in His existence. Flaws and crimes are a determination of behavior or thoughts injurious to or out of keeping with cultural norms. Sometimes they can be synonymous, but sins are less likely "to be or not to be" over time. Civil law borrows definitions of sin and relabels them crimes, but also creates their own crimes that are not sins. So, a thief, to a believer, is a person who sinned AND broke the civil law. A smoker in a public park in NYC is a criminal, but sinful? I think not.
01:39 AM on 01/02/2012
The truth is Adam sinned long before God gave "the law" to Moses. I think ...You may want to rethink what you think.
10:43 AM on 01/08/2012
I mentioned nothing of Moses - wasn't the first proscription to not eat that damn fruit?
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brooklyncitizen
Quaerite primum regnum dei
12:16 AM on 12/30/2011
I really enjoyed this; I appreciate the willingness to share the brokeness and found it moving.
I do identify sin as a turning away from God, a loss of relationship with God.

However we can't really bridge that..there is a fissure between man and God...but we can get to "know" God as we grow in relationship with him.
01:55 AM on 01/02/2012
Enter Jesus and His work on the cross. Both sides of the fissure bridged by His cross. Step across and shake the Hand of God anytime you want.... better yet just climb up and cuddle in His lap.

Mat 27:50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

Mat 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.

The curtain seperated the Holy of Holies from us was split in half symbolizing anyone has direct access to God through the redeeming work of Jesus on the cross.
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brooklyncitizen
Quaerite primum regnum dei
11:11 AM on 01/02/2012
I know what you are saying but I don't agree.
Jesus allows us to access our own Divinity, that is God within.He is relatable because he was human, and this makes him accessible,
THe fuissure between man and God is permanent.
We can never comprehnd, describe or experience God as He is.
We get snippets, consolations, flashes of insight etc. but we are not made to see Him as He is.
06:51 PM on 12/29/2011
"We are, by God's design and for God's holy purposes His own very good and beloved people." As an aspect of the divine experiencing physical reality on his behalf, we live in a totally self created reality. Once we own our creation we have power over it. When we become a victim to it, feel everything happens to us by an outside agency, we remain powerless to accept it and move through it with with skill and ease.
09:46 PM on 12/29/2011
The end was meant to say: can't move through it with skill and ease.
09:47 PM on 12/29/2011
"As an aspect of the divine experienci­ng physical reality on his behalf, we live in a totally self created reality". So, physical reality is a self-created reality, or the two are separate? Also, would it then follow from your statements that when supposedly "victim" and "powerless" to our creation, we are such on behalf of god?

"We are, by God's design and for God's holy purposes..." Were that true, how could that not be "outside agency"?
11:24 PM on 12/29/2011
Physical reality is and extension of and from self created reality. Physical reality is created by the personality (You, me) in its journey to gain experience on behalf of the soul, oversoul (higher self) and divine consciousness. The divine is not a finished product, it forever ventures in all dimensions and altered realities, etc., to gain experience. It is only all knowing based on what it has experienced. Is always in the state of becoming
When we feel that something happens to us by and outside agency. We have a tendency to become a victim. When we own our creation and what happens to us as our creation, that allows us to better move through life with skill and ease. Of course its not easy when something "big" happens, but the more we can accept "what happens to us" the more we can attempt to deminish the feeling created from it. Being a victim eat our you innards, causes cancer etc. It is never healthy.
Yes to the last part. If we were by gods design and for his holy purpose... that would be outside agency. We could be messed with, we could be for his unholy purpose.
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Sally Tallywhacker
Godless, just like everyone else.
10:34 AM on 12/29/2011
"Sin" is a religious construct. I'm happy to say that I'm sinless.
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CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
07:19 PM on 12/29/2011
How convenient to have defined away your sin. However, definitions do not alter reality.
08:53 PM on 12/29/2011
The concept of sin in this context presupposes the existence of a supernatural deity. Please elaborate the evidence for belief in such a deity.
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Sally Tallywhacker
Godless, just like everyone else.
07:16 AM on 12/30/2011
I didn't alter the definition, it's just that I don't qualify as such. See how free one can be without the mental shackles of peurile religious labels.

P.S. Religion is fantasy, not reality.
04:48 PM on 01/03/2012
ok
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Mac88
The sense of it is not common!
08:52 AM on 12/29/2011
One does not need a God or you or I to tell them they have "Sinned"? They already know that. One does need a God or you or I to give each other the strength or fortitude to live up to what we believe in or know to be valid. I believe that the Bible was reasonable clear that it was a sin for whom the law was given and not a sin for who it was not given. For those to whom it was given, knowledge and instruction to support the law was also given which allowed personal choice! It is impossible to write a law that can't be circumvented without breaking it. The Bible left us with one. Love thy neighbor as thy self. If you by your own judgement have not done so, you have sinned! Someone is going to be aware of the results and you will pay for it here today and again tomorrow. Do we need some God to add to that and would he be loving if he did? Your sins are yours and mine are mine. They are not one and the same.
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11:07 AM on 12/29/2011
When you have a god, whether he be the Christian one or not, that dictates laws, knowing that he created you with flaws, then the laws cannot be circumvented any way you look at it, without breaking them.
The so-called commandments, for example, are absolutes that are impossible to circumvent without breaking at least one. Is rule (short for commandment) an absolute in the eyes of this god?
Yes, there is no way you can worship another one but him, period, without breaking it. No leniency.

Is the rule against stealing an absolute? Yes. So, if a man steals food to save his family from starvation, is he guilty? Yes, and to the full penalty of the law because there is no possibility of leniency; it's an absolute.

If a man kills another, is it a sin? Yes. There can be no possible leniency and a killer must be punished to the maximum of the law; it's an absolute, even if he is defending his family or his country. There are those who will tell you that the OT makes place for exceptions, but the laws are absolutes or they are not, and the Bible is true or it is not; not one comma can you change without putting god's word into doubt and destroying the authority and infallibility of it.

With this kind of religious philosophy there is no circumventing the law. Only secular law has the ability for leniency, because it is not an absolute.
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Gerald Brogdon
09:16 PM on 12/29/2011
Ref: "The so-called commandmen­ts, for example, are absolutes that are impossible to circumvent without breaking at least one."
1) Jesus did it.
2) This shows a basic misunderstanding of the commandments of God. Jesus shared two insights that you should filter into your understanding: a) There is a priority among commandments (Matthew 22:36-40), and b) thoughts were equal to actions (Matthew 5-7). While all other ethical systems show equal commandments, Christianity shows that there is a priority of two above all others. When Jesus was accused of healing on the Sabbath (and was threatened with stoning), He replied I'm about my Father's business (Love God) or who would not help a neighbor get an animal out of the ditch (love neighbor).
Ref; "There are those who will tell you that the OT makes place for exceptions­, but the laws are absolutes or they are not, and the Bible is true or it is not; not one comma can you change without putting god's word into doubt and destroying the authority and infallibil­ity of it."
1) Please see above comments with respect to "laws are absolutes". There are absolutes but there are priorities.
2) The law was put in place to show humanity's sinfulness. It has done an admirable job of that. That is why God from the very beginning had a salvation solution apart from the law to save humanity.
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Gerald Brogdon
09:17 PM on 12/29/2011
Ref: "With this kind of religious philosophy there is no circumvent­ing the law. Only secular law has the ability for leniency, because it is not an absolute."
1) I will agree there is no circumventing the law, but God has already established the redemption salvation solution that frees those who believe from the punishment of the law.
2) Your argument for secular law appears to focus on leniency. When you divorce the law from the purpose of the law of following God, you have eliminated the basic characteristic of the law and fallen into a chasm that unfairness is the rule of day. With the allowance of leniency, doesn't the cries of unfairness deafen all ears? Who gets the breaks and why? Rationalizing sin is one of humanity's strengths. I would doubt that you would commonly find anyone willing to declare that the action they took was wrong. We can always find some way to justify our actions. Without an absolute standard, who could argue against such a statement?
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11:49 AM on 12/29/2011
Adam is the pillar of Christianity, because if he hadn't
Sinned, there would be no need for atonement and no need for a Jesus.
But, did Adam sin on purpose or because he was flawed? Did he steal (sort of), did he kill, did he commit adultery (though he never married)? We can all tell which rule he broke of course and, by golly, he was punished to the full penalty of the law. And so are we, according to this religious philosophy.
Now every time we hiccup, we look over our shoulder and shiver at the thought of having broken some rule; working on a Sabbath, watching TV on a Sabbath, saying hello to our gay neighbor....
Since there isn't a definite line between 'good' and 'bad-evil', we are prisoners of a Guilt-forever-Syndrome.
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brooklyncitizen
Quaerite primum regnum dei
12:24 AM on 12/30/2011
Please tell me which church you attend so I may steer clear of it.
something is very amiss/
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Mac88
The sense of it is not common!
08:51 AM on 12/29/2011
I would like to propose a different perspective. If God said that there is sufficient worry in a day to suffice without worrying about tomorrow, Why should be worry about what happens after we die or whether there is or is not a God to question what we did yesterday? The Bible says judge not that you be not judged, yet we judge and are judged every single day of our life! Would not a loving God find that sufficient and be inclined to agree with the whole of mankind were he to impose more judgement? If we as loving humans consider what one knew or understood before considering them to be guilty of a crime, would not a loving God do much more. I see "Sin" as an act that is contrary to ones own better judgement. Not yours or mine but ones own knowledge or belief that they failed to live up to. Continued...Above.
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08:25 AM on 12/29/2011
So sin is OK as long as it is for a good cause (and subtle), like, say, the Crusades and if it is in the name of Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, ….
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Gerald Brogdon
09:18 PM on 12/29/2011
There is no sin if you fulfill the higher priority commandments (See Matthew 22:36-40).
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brooklyncitizen
Quaerite primum regnum dei
12:26 AM on 12/30/2011
Good
11:18 AM on 12/30/2011
So sayeth Gerald Brogdon who speaks for the gods.
DianaLynn1967
It's a great life if you don't weaken!
10:55 PM on 12/30/2011
Is that your impression of what the author said? Because I didn't get that impression at all.
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06:06 AM on 12/29/2011
Several academic definitions of sin have been judiciously offered on this blog, but fundamentally, it is a breach of the laws of (a) god in a particular religious philosophy.
If there is a god and if He dictates certain laws that are not to be broken, breaking one is a Sin.

Consequently, religion scrambles to establish a set of steps in the attempt to allow for what it calls repentance or "repair" of the crime. And it winds up by proclaiming that we need god to save us and give us some sort of contorted salvation. The god in question, magically transforms himself into his own son, and dies to save mankind.
So believers will say that we need god, to save us from our sins.

But, the corollary is that if there is no god, there are no divine laws, no crime to commit, no laws to breach and consequently, no such thing as a sin. The absence of god, is the absence of sin.
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06:28 AM on 12/29/2011
This absence of god paradox is linked to the very dogmas of Christianity and Judaism. Christianity, by the way, often forgets that the Old Testament is part of its Bible.
It the OT, it is clearly established that Adam is the pillar of Christianity, not Jesus.
If Adam had not “sinnedâ€, there would be no need for a Jesus. But even without Jesus, there are provisions for the atonement or forgiveness of sins in the OT, of which the sacrifice of animals (sheep, cows, bulls, etc.) are a part. Human sacrifice is simply the epitome of the sacrificial “lambâ€.
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07:16 AM on 12/29/2011
I am not saying that there are no standards. There are plenty of standards; secular laws, moral consciousness, intrinsic human values, etc.
I am just saying that, philosophically speaking, the concept of divine laws is not a necessary standard. If one needs an invisible deity to set and dictate ones moral compass, … one can only wonder.
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Gerald Brogdon
09:33 PM on 12/29/2011
Ref: "It the OT, it is clearly establishe­d that Adam is the pillar of Christiani­ty, not Jesus."
Adam is the source of the problem. Jesus is the source of the solution. The problem was described in the OT. The solution was described in the NT. Christianity is related to the solution and not the problem although it recognizes the problem. Therefore, Jesus is the pillar of Christianity, not Adam.
Ref: "If Adam had not “sinnedâ€, there would be no need for a Jesus." Also, there would be no need for sacrifice of animals or any of the other OT requirements because we would be following God's will exactly.
Ref: "Human sacrifice is simply the epitome of the sacrificia­l “lambâ€. " This is only necessary if humanity has sinned. Since Adam sinned, everyone has fallen and needs this solution to satisfy our rebellion from God.
06:31 AM on 12/29/2011
So - as the song says: "Anything goes" and their is no standard, their is no sin and you can do whatever you want. How convenient for this sinful generation to assert how "sin - free" they are. If only they could convince God during judgement day, they would have it made! What they fail to realize is --- the Almighty has been around for a long time (eternity) and is not as easily fooled as the rest of us. Good luck to you when you try to explain this one to him. Of course, then you will truly find out that luck does not exist.
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Sally Tallywhacker
Godless, just like everyone else.
10:38 AM on 12/29/2011
Morality predates religion, which makes your words simply noise.

And no doubt you'll reply with more noise...
02:33 PM on 12/29/2011
Ethics and morality do not depend on gods. That is our history as a species.

It still is the case.

I understand that it is your belief that you have divine guidance on these topics, but nothing is superior or even more wise with your rules. Most have been dropped from the human pantheon because they are unhelpful and in many cases, unjust and cruel.
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Gadgetman
No sense of humor? That's not funny!
02:32 AM on 12/29/2011
"...Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
 
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!"

~ George Carlin
06:34 AM on 12/29/2011
broken record broken record broken record broken record. Please skip this myth talk and go on to something new- George is dead now and was old when he said it. New material would be appreciated. thankyou.
02:35 PM on 12/29/2011
George Carlin is still valid. Anyone that provides wisdom whether they have passed on or are current are worthy. I'm sure that you don't deny what was written 1,700 years ago as still relevant. Isn't this true?
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Gerald Brogdon
10:46 PM on 12/29/2011
Ref: "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day."
1) Who is this Religion dude? I need to correct him on several points: a) He's not a man, b) He's not living in the sky because He is everywhere, and c) it's every second of every day.
2) Religion (via the Church) has constantly had its share of hypocrites and wrong understandings of God. How can such a fallible organization have such persuasive power without God empowering it and proclaiming His message through it? There are other man-made religions but please show me the message from God that are empowering them?
Ref: "special place, full of fire and smoke" and "But He loves you." Would God show more love by not telling you the truth?
Ref: "He needs money!" Money is just one sign of our obedience. God wants more than our money. God wants all of us. Money is just one of the outward indicators of our love for Him.
Ref: "somehow just can't handle money!" This is a funny line but it also shows God's great love for us. God doesn't need us or our money. I'm for one am thankful that God allows me to participate in His mission. God could have left us as nothingness.
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Gadgetman
No sense of humor? That's not funny!
03:56 AM on 12/30/2011
Rationalizations. "God created man in his likeness and image and man returned the compliment." ~ Rousseau
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10:51 PM on 12/30/2011
Gerald,
Just what are the attributes of this god you refer to?
1) You say he is everywhere; is that ubiquitous you mean?
2) He knows what is going on (every minute); is that Omniscience you refer to?
3) It seems that he is invisible; but would you agree?
4) He seems all powerful; but would you agree?
5) He seems eternal; but would you agree?
6) Is he in this universe or somewhere beyond it looking in?

If so there is a problem with your concept of him.
02:30 AM on 12/29/2011
You know, I have to wonder about all the self-proclaimed "atheists" who post here. First of all, why are you even reading these articles? Every comment is essentially the same: the stories are mythological, God is mythological, people of faith are stupid for believing, blah blah blah. You evince no understanding of what separates scholarly, reflective, pastoral theological thought from fundamentalist drivel. Go bother the fundamentalists - they're the inerrant literalists. The articles here are often from some of the world's most respected theological minds, and 90% of the people criticizing them have no clue what they're talking about. It's some sort of armchair Archie Bunker theological mentality. And you know what? If you're posting here, atheist or not, you're "doing" theology - you're just not doing it very well. Telling us the article is useless because its focus is the nature of our selves before God and sin and these things don't exist? Really? My hunch is at best most of you are agnostics. This page is, for the most part, an excellent resource for modern theological thought. On a daily basis, there are really good, scholarly articles posted here. I understand fundamentalists don't agree with the theology here, and I understand atheists think the whole conversation is ridiculous. It would just be nice once in a while to read some actual intelligent critique of the issues raised in the articles posted here.
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MagicManDoneIt
When facts are lacking. Just say...
04:43 AM on 12/29/2011
Sophisticated theology is convoluted and obfuscatory excuse-making. There are no good arguments for the existence of God because there are no new arguments and all of them have been debunked, many times. I'd be happy to rebut any of the scholarly and reflective thought you would like to present. Hit me with your best argument and embarass me in a public forum.
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Mac88
The sense of it is not common!
01:32 PM on 12/29/2011
What is to be gained by proving or disproving the existence of God? If there is no God, does that mean that rules boundaries, limits good and bad don't exist also?
10:26 PM on 12/30/2011
Well, proofs for the existence of God are really more a matter of philosophy than theology. And you're absolutely incorrect about the nature of theology. Most of the best theologians are quite skeptical themselves, wicked historians, willing to push the envelope, buck tradition, and challenge conventional wisdom. That's what makes them so valuable. Some of our best modern theologians are developing new varieties of liberation and postcolonial theologies as we speak. You may think it's all idiotic, but my point was the only thing that's more idiotic is reading theological articles and posting here if you don't believe any of it is worthwhile. And the idea that you think this is about embarrassing one another in public goes to the heart of everything that's wrong w/ these online "comments". This isn't confessional dogma here on this page. The editors do a really good job. You (and many others who post here) don't appear to be able to tell the difference.
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WoolyBumblebee
Creator of TruthAndOblivion.com
05:56 AM on 12/29/2011
"It would just be nice once in a while to read some actual intelligen­t critique of the issues raised in the articles posted here."

But you have. If you are looking for intelligent critiques you read the atheist comments. If you are looking for a critique based in fantasy land, then read the comments by theists. Simple!