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Liz Ryan

Liz Ryan

Posted: February 20, 2010 11:50 AM

It's a funny time on the national job search scene. Lots more jobs are popping up, and people are getting job offers every day. Three of the folks in my online community got job offers last week (no, not McJobs; the three salary offers were $65K, $95K and $190K).

But lots of other people are still having a rough time, sending out resumes and waiting for the phone to ring.

Who is getting the work? Consultants are getting lots of it; and where full time W-2 jobs are concerned, job seekers who bring a consulting approach have a huge advantage over traditional job seekers. That's because consultants go on interviews (only they call them sales calls) to ask questions, not to answer them.

Consultants show up to meetings with prospects to see whether the consultant's brand of antidote is a good match with the prospect's pain. We can do the same thing on a job interview. The three folks I mentioned earlier, the ones who got job offers last week, did that. They didn't sit in the chair and answer the interviewer's question and then wait for him or her to ask another one.

They used the interview time to probe for the employer's pain. They already knew before entering the room that the job spec is mostly a bunch of made-up garbage. They shot higher than that. They weren't willing to spend their time answering questions like "Tell me about your experience with Job Spec Item One." They knew that even if they'd been bionically engineered, or raised in a Petri dish to fit that job spec, it wouldn't guarantee them a job.

The person who gets the job is the person who understands and speaks to the pain behind the job opening.

How does this work? Here's a quick example.

THEM: So, do you have experience with FrameScoper software?
YOU: Not tons, but I've worked with half a dozen other content management programs. How does FrameScoper fit into the scheme of things in this role?
THEM: Well, we use FrameScoper to write chapters and keep track of versions, for our manuals.

Instantly the job-seeker sees that the software-application question is a typical idiotic job interviewer question, driven not by any great need for FrameScoper skills (you could learn the software package, if it weren't imaginary, in a day or two) but by the interviewer's reliance on the job spec as a focal point for the conversation. Who cares about the stupid FrameScoper application? No one really cares, but we make the software important because it's prominent on the published job spec. That is a horrible way to write a job spec, but that's a topic for another blog post.

We don't want to let the interview devolve into a conversation about software applications, so we press on in search of the business pain behind the job opening.

YOU: Can I ask you a quick question about the manuals?
THEM: Shoot.
YOU: I want to make sure I understand. You're creating manuals for end-users. Those users presumably aren't technically savvy. Do you have issues with new users stumbling over the product's functionality?
THEM: Kind of. A lot of times we do. We try to make the manuals simple, but we still get a lot of tech support calls from new users.
YOU: How often would you say you get one of those calls?
THEM: Well, I don't talk to the Call Center Manager that often, but maybe ten calls a week.
YOU: That's got to cost money, fielding all those calls. And people typically aren't happy when the manual doesn't answer their first few questions. What have you tried, to make the manuals more comprehensive around new-user questions?
THEM (frustratedly): We keep revising the manuals, but people are so ... annoying! They buy the device, and they don't read the manual, and they don't charge the batteries properly, and we get blamed for it.
YOU: That is frustrating. It sounds like the job has as much to do with getting user feedback, getting the must-do steps right up front and very prominent in the manual -- maybe even in the product packaging -- as it has to do with writing FAQs and troubleshooting tips.
THEM: That is true. We need to get inside our users' heads, especially the rank newbies, without alienating the expert users who want to use the coolest features.
YOU: Do you have an online user group where the gadget-heads could brainstorm together?
THEM: No, but we've talked about doing that. Do you have experience with that?

You have shifted the interview successfully to the soul of the matter -- the business pain -- and you've introduced one good idea that made the hiring manager's heart beat faster. (You don't want to give away more than one or two ideas in the interview.)

Consultative job-seekers don't sit in the chair and answer the interview questions that are put to them. They dig in and figure out what's going on and what's at stake for the hiring manager in front of them.

Try it! The beautiful thing about this interview approach is that, even if you don't get the job, your self-confidence skyrockets. Who couldn't use a dose of encouragement on the job hunt?

 

Follow Liz Ryan on Twitter: www.twitter.com/asklizryan

It's a funny time on the national job search scene. Lots more jobs are popping up, and people are getting job offers every day. Three of the folks in my online community got job offers last week (no, ...
It's a funny time on the national job search scene. Lots more jobs are popping up, and people are getting job offers every day. Three of the folks in my online community got job offers last week (no, ...
 
 
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10:02 AM on 02/22/2010
This is decent information if you have a professional "career" and are following up on a skilled job that demands some technical expertise.

For the rest of the working world most are just off-shoots of Marketing and Marketing "type" roles.

Usually the interviewer knows nothing about the job beyond whats written by that departments designated poster. I wrote the job role for 8 years for 4 jobs while actually only performing one of those 4. The reason ? The manager knew less than myself in all 4 roles but insisted on the description coming from our department and had more rank than other managers. We got submission rights to HR. Who are just PR for the company's legal.

HR is not the "we help our people and job interview" professionals. They are mouth pieces to protect the company from being sued by exiting mal-treated employees and possible suits brought by incoming employees. Other than that HR has no function other than a smile and a BS presentation.

Once hired or probated into a role, the company basically has no easy way of terminating the employee unless they keep them as Contract. Instead they restructure the department and let the terminated employee know their role is nolonger part of the future business need.
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Liz Ryan
human workplace
01:34 PM on 02/23/2010
The hiring manager is going to know all about the job. If you approach the hiring manager directly, you can talk with that person by phone or in person, and avoid HR. You don't want to meet with HR for a 'screening interview' for the very reason you mention. The HR person doesn't know the job, and doesn't have any pain associated with it. The HR person is completely focused on the job-spec requirements, which typically have no connection to the real pain the hiring manager is experiencing. The pain-interviewing approach works for all levels of jobs as long as you're meeting with the hiring manager. Let's say it's a Target retail job. The hiring manager has a list of questions. He asks you "What is your greatest strength?": That's a question that came straight from the corporate HR group (not to insult Target -- they seem to be a great company and I have no idea whether they use this question - this is just an example). You don't say "Yada yada yada, la la la" but you turn it around and say "I guess it's that I'm curious about what's important in whatever environment I'm in. Here at Target, it looks like keeping items in stock and answering customers' questions are the biggest priorities. Would you agree?"

We could rail about HR for days, no question -- that's why we go straight to the hiring manager and don't trifle with HR. Avoid the Black Hole!
03:38 PM on 02/21/2010
Three job offers with decent salary. In one week. Out of the last three years, right? Tens of millions of qualified applicants would like to know where those job offers were. Several million more will be graduating this year. They also would like to know the names of the companies and the jobs offered.
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Liz Ryan
human workplace
06:42 PM on 02/21/2010
In our group of 25,000, two to five people get a job offer per week (that's the folks who tell me about the offers). Here are the titles of the jobs our members accepted this week: VP Sales, Director Corporate Communications, Office Manager/Purchasing Agent. Best, Liz
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texastrixie
I invented the internet.
09:11 PM on 02/21/2010
Now I'm flabbergasted. If even your top estimate of 5 people a week get a job offer, that only totals 260 per year. That works out to a 1% success rate based on 25,000 people in your group! Even if you figure a silent 10 times ratio (one person relays a job offer for every ten who actually get one), that would mean the yearly success rate of your group is only 10%!
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DavidWyld
Professor of Management
01:00 PM on 02/21/2010
This is an excellent article to put a new perspective on the always dreaded, frequently awkward job interview. Recommend that it should be read by all looking for a job, especially in these times.

David
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marijam
Independent
07:50 AM on 02/21/2010
RE: You have shifted the interview successfully to the soul of the matter -- the business pain -- and you've introduced one good idea that made the hiring manager's heart beat faster. (You don't want to give away more than one or two ideas in the interview.)

The one or two ideas that you gave away in the interview may have cost you the job.
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BMcCue7
I'm Buddy McCue (and you're not.)
11:32 AM on 02/21/2010
That's what I thought when I read that.
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Liz Ryan
human workplace
06:43 PM on 02/21/2010
You are imagining that there's a hiring manager who loves your ideas and has a job opening, but hires someone else? Anything is possible. You could play your cards closer to the vest and share no ideas in the interview. Please try that and let us know how it works -- best, Liz
07:38 PM on 02/20/2010
Particularly appreciated your comments about the "software-application question." This extends all the way back to resume screening by computer. When I suspect or know my resume will be screened via computer search I have a page of search terms I add and then change it to white text. People can't see it but computers can -- dramatic increase in first round responses. The next step is the first level screener who often has little or no idea how to rank the various job "requirements" so they all get treated as equal. Sometimes the "I've worked with half a dozen other ..." is the best answer (if it is true.) The other solution is to be prepared to highlight your strengths on some of the others and explain why they are probably important to the hiring manager. The hiring manger or their knowledgeable representative is the target for Liz's advice.

Thanks for the reminder to stay focused on delivering value.
03:41 PM on 02/20/2010
i have participated on countless interview panels. i usually found the proactive approach to be interesting and those hired usually proved to be an asset to the business; however, others on the panel seemed to be threatened by the proactive approach. So, it seems to me the person being interviewed needs to size up the situation and decide if the proactive approach is the best way to go.
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Liz Ryan
human workplace
08:27 PM on 02/20/2010
Thanks for this comment. My view would be that a person who's intimidated by the candidate's desire to become an active participant in the discussion is a person we wouldn't want to work for. Assuming that the hiring manager is among the panel members, I'd tell a job-seeker to engage the hiring manager and anyone else on the panel who's interested in the give-and-take, and don't waste a second worrying about anybody on the panel who doesn't like the candidate's proactive approach. If the hiring manager is the stick-in-the-mud, well, I wouldn't want a candidate to work for that person, anyway.

A great thing about a non-grovelly interview approach is that it helps us weed out the managers who'd appreciate our gifts from those who wouldn't. Life is too short to spend time worrying about what people think about us! If a hiring manager 'gets' us, we're in great shape. If a hiring manager is put off by the desire to level the conversational playing field, he or she doesn't deserve us on the team.
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texastrixie
I invented the internet.
09:27 PM on 02/21/2010
If a manager's attitude means he doesn't "deserve you on the team," you haven't been out of work very long. Please, step aside. I'm sure you are just too wonderful for words, and this job would be beneath you, but there are six million other people in this country who are desperate for work. I'm sure someone will take that job and hug their spouse when they walk in the door, saying, "I got it! I got it!"
02:10 PM on 02/20/2010
I was interviewing a candidate once and hit them with a question related to an actual design issue we were having. The candidate then directed (with my cooperation) that question into a 30 minute design brainstorm session that ended up with me getting a good idea for our design and him getting a glowing recommendation from me, and later the position. By taking control of the situation, demonstrating an actual ability to brainstorm ideas, and showing his ability to work with others he demonstrated more ability for the job than I would have ever discerned from his answers to my interview questions.
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Edie Spencer
01:01 PM on 02/20/2010
This was an excellent and deeply needed article! And here's another thing- once the interviewer understands that you are there to help THEM, and not merely to be a presence to be TALKED TO, then it's really serves you- and the company- to hire such a person!