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Lord Weidenfeld of Chelsea

Lord Weidenfeld of Chelsea

Posted: January 5, 2010 10:25 PM

Two Rights and Two Wrongs

What's Your Reaction:

Sunny, only temporarily clouded - Tel-Aviv's weather at the year's start is also typical of the people's mood. The economy is healthy, booming - even the cautious guild of state and private finance experts smiles. The entourage of the by now forty-man deep Government exudes discreet optimism on the question of recharging the batteries of serious peace negotiations. Prime Minister Netanyahu met with Egypt's President Mubarak, who in the latest phase of Israeli thinking plays a leading part. There is hope that Mahmoud Abbas, with his Fatah faithful, will this time come to the conference table. Thanks to the special pressure from President Obama this time all thorny issues will be thoroughly discussed: frontiers, settlements, Jerusalem, Holy Places and Palestinian right of return.

Europe should also play a more important role. In my private talks with Netanyahu, Defence Minister Barak and especially President Shimon Peres there was the definite feeling that even if Europe still does not speak with one voice it does contain willing and reasonable interlocutors. An Israeli Government delegation due to meet soon with Angela Merkel's ministerial team is expected to lead to truly constructive and thorough discussions.

Therefore all the more so has the escalating anti-Semitism and anti-Israel feeling in European media in connection with Gaza caused Israeli bitterness and pain.

There is much talk about a news story claiming that Israeli soldiers harvest inner organs and blood of Palestinians for commercial purposes. In the Persian language programme of the BBC World Service these stories were prominently reported. An open letter to the Director General of the BBC Mark Thompson came from an unexpected source: world-famous 38 year old piano virtuoso Evgeny Kissin, who spent his youth under the yoke of Soviet dictatorship, some of whose friends and relations lived, suffered and died in the Gulag and who is proud of living as a British citizen in the homeland of freedom, wrote a fiery letter of protest which is causing a sensation. By last night he had not received an answer.

Here one tends to think about the efforts of another great personality, Maestro Daniel Barenboim, to demonstrate to the world that 'enemies' (Israelis and Arabs) can gather under the banner of music, work and live in an orchestra peacefully and, in the truest sense of the word, harmoniously. Barenboim's intentions are crystal clear: he works for peace. Yet there is a danger of one side exploiting a noble initiative from the other side. Thus the Israelis fear that the plight of the Palestinians tends to be more dramatised in the accounts of the orchestra's activities than the legitimate fear that Israel will never be recognised as a free people and State. In spite of all that the concept of the West-Eastern Divan orchestra must deeply impress all those in quest for peace. It leaves open for both sides to rethink their views on right and wrong.

For me at any rate there is no better judgment on this complex issue than a quote from a speech of Israel's first President, Chaim Weizmann: "The Jewish-Palestinian problem is not a conflict of right and wrong but one of two rights and two wrongs." And he concluded "Our wrong is the smaller one."

 
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
lbsaltzman
Permaculture and Sustainability
09:52 PM on 01/08/2010
When Chaim Weizmann said: "The Jewish-Palestinian problem is not a conflict of right and wrong but one of two rights and two wrongs. Our wrong is the smaller one.", he was completely wrong. The Palestinians did not steal land from European Jews, European Jews stole Palestine from the Palestinians.
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SamEllison
I feel so clean!
08:45 PM on 01/07/2010
Two rights, two wrongs,
no peace for sixty plus years.
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05:14 AM on 01/07/2010
While it is the case that the organ harvesting accusation is only a mild deviation from the blood libel, and it's also true that the specific allegation made recently by the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet is false, the problem is that there remains, nonetheless, much about this story which is true.

Specifically, it's true that organs have been harvested illegally from cadavers to be sold for profit in at least one Israeli hospital, and that some of these came from dead Palestinians and arab Israelis.

It's also true that arab Israelis are treated under Israeli law as second class citizens, with lesser rights and privileges in their own land.

It's also either true or very plausibly alleged that in last year's attack on Gaza, Palestinian civilians were shot and killed in cold blood by Israeli soldiers, and that Israeli denials of this accusation have relied in large measure upon heat rather than light.

These three facts suffice to take us most (but not all) of the way to the swedish paper's blood libel. If the accusation is that close to the truth, it cannot be said that the story is preposterous and should not have been reported by any paper.
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JacksonJones
Absit iniuria verbis!
06:17 PM on 01/07/2010
Aren't you the guy who just downthreads a bit explained why its ok to kill civilians?

Here's what you wrote below on this post:

"Israel's 'facts on the ground' strategy uses civilians to further the military goal of cementing permanent Israeli control of much of the occupied territory. They are, in other words, being used as a weapon in Israel's war against the Palestinians, and that means that they're not civilians at all."

So, are there any other reasons you think its OK to go out and kill some civilians on purpose?
08:13 PM on 01/07/2010
Why didn't you reply to his comment down thread instead of off-topic on this one?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
lbsaltzman
Permaculture and Sustainability
09:54 PM on 01/08/2010
For the record the radical settlers are armed, living on land stolen from the Palestinians, and engage in the equivalent of pogroms against the Palestinians. Palestinians under the Geneva Conventions have the right to view those "civilians" as armed combatants and criminals.
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CigarGod
What is your process?
04:38 PM on 01/06/2010
How come we only hear negative stuff about Hamas?

The only countries that have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization are:
Canada, USA, Japan, Australia, Israel and 27 EU countries.

So, only 32 out of 200 countries of the world agree.
I don't know why that is, but it probably explains why we hear boths sides of the issue...from just the side of 32 countries....all but Japan, being white.

Go ahead and jump on me...I like it....but stating inconvenient facts....isn't necessarily a defence....except for those who think reacting...is the same as thinking.
04:51 PM on 01/06/2010
Right.... 'Cause everybody forgets all the good that firing rockets at civilians does for the world!
04:56 PM on 01/06/2010
Can we apply the same standards to the IDF please?
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Aziat
The Answer is 42
06:08 PM on 01/06/2010
Any group that believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fact and deliberatly targets civilians can never ever be anything but negative
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Mortifyd
06:24 PM on 01/06/2010
True.
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CigarGod
What is your process?
12:21 PM on 01/07/2010
Is the Talmud obsolete?
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03:51 PM on 01/06/2010
Israel is already recognized as a free people and State by the vast majority of the world’s population. The problem is extending this freedom to the Palestinians, that is a legitimate fear as there seems to be little or no movement on the Israeli side to facilitate this.
09:32 PM on 01/06/2010
And What are the Arabs' efforts towards peace?? Rockets fired at Israeli civilians..and WHAT ELSE???
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01:26 PM on 01/07/2010
The Palestinians were willing to negotiate years before Israel were. In case you've forgotten Israel refused to negotiate with the PLO for years, they refuse to negotiate with Hamas now.
On top of this the IDF have had a policy of targeted assassinations against Palestinian leaders for decades now along with imprisoning others.
The Israeli state has deliberately encouraged the radicalization of the Palestinians and isolated effective leadership. If you had watched over the years you would have seen them calling for the Palestinians to control their own forces while simultaneously destroying the forces they had to effect any control and calling for a moderate leadership to talk to as they imprisoned those who could perform that function thus allowing them to continue to attest they have nobody to negotiate with and continue to appropriate Palestinian land.
Of course none of this as with your answer has anything to do with my post.
04:19 AM on 01/08/2010
Jordan - can we at least have a few more facts re the rockets. For instance, were they smart or were they simply fired off in the direct of a town and killed a handful of Israelis while many Palestinians have died at checkpoints as they were not allowed through to get to the hospital. How about the malnutrition of the Gazans. How about the deliberate cutting off of electricity and fuelfor the Gazans. How about the sniping at Gazan farmers and the stealing of their land. Israel somehow feels that the world will accept the crimes of Israel and deem the small attempts to fight back to be war crimes.
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JacksonJones
Absit iniuria verbis!
06:24 PM on 01/07/2010
The Israelis are not so recognized by the people shooting at them, which is really the bit that counts toward ending the conflict.

You say that they problem is extending freedom to Palestinians. But that has never been the problem. That has been available for decades. The problem is how to extend freedom to Palestinians such they they will not, *as they promise they will*, use that freedom to further their campaign of denying the very freedom to Israelis.

Google, for example "PLO Phased Plan" and "Hamas Charter".

These people (as opposed to the general Palestinian populations, which would prefer to get on with a peaceful existence in their own state next to Israel) make it quite plain what their intentions are vis-a-vis any freedom they are accorded, and *that* not anything else, not even settlements, is the sticky wicket.

They only people who don't know about that are people who don't care to listen to what the Palestinian armed factions have been explaining for years. Such *facts*, after all, get in the way of *the narrative*.
11:31 AM on 01/09/2010
And, have you read the Likud Charter (15 years younger, and therefore even more relevant than the Hamas Charter), which expresses quite clearly that the Eastern Border of the state of Israel will be the Jordan Valley, and that any autonomous Palestinian state based on the West Bank and Gaza is not to be permitted?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jcwtts1
Elections have consequences
03:50 PM on 01/06/2010
"White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel recently told the Israeli consul in Los Angeles that the Obama administration is fed up with both Israel and the Palestinians, Army Radio reported on Wednesday.

Emanuel met with Jacob Dayan, consul general of Israel in Los Angeles, about two weeks ago, after which Dayan briefed the Foreign Ministry.

Emanuel told Dayan the U.S. is sick of the Israelis, who adopt suitable ideas months too late, when they are no longer effective, according to Army Radio.
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The U.S. is also sick of the Palestinians who never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, Emanuel reportedly said.

Emanuel added that if there is no progress in the peace process, the Obama administration will reduce its involvement in the conflict, because, as he reportedly said, the U.S. has other matters to deal with.

Emanuel reportedly said that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu publicly acknowledged the two-state solution too late, and that the freeze on settlement construction in the West Bank came only after months of U.S. pressure.

The report added that both sides reportedly rejected the peace plan proposed by former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, but that if there is progress in peace talks, Obama might visit Israel and the region"
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jcwtts1
Elections have consequences
03:49 PM on 01/06/2010
I wrote a post earlier today and it got scrubbed, I'm not sure why but I'll try again. There are two issues at hand here, one is the antisemitic, which we as a national and as people of good will must speak out against. But the second issue is simply that When Obama won the white house Netenyahu tried to big time him and it has backfired completely. Let me clarify briefly, Chicago pols are all cut from a similar mold. They may forgive a slight but they never forget one. The President asked Bebe in private to halt settlement construction. He didn't big time him he didn't threaten him he simply said, we need you to stop with the settlements until we get peace. Netenyahu publicly trashed the president. That is his right, Israel is a sovereign nation and they don't need our permission to do anything, but that shot, that attempt at big timing the president has consequences. Ones that are going to last through these 8 years. There was simply no good reason to do it. Read the Rahm quote on the HP today. It is crushing.

J
02:08 PM on 01/06/2010
Palestine belongs to the Palestinians. And there is nothing "thorny" about it. They have an unalienable right to return to their 1948 homes and lands. What is it so difficult to understand about it? There are no Palestinan rights to surrender. The only thing left to do is find the way to implement those rights without surrendering those rights. Just like if you have a right to return to your home that has been stolen.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jcwtts1
Elections have consequences
03:40 PM on 01/06/2010
And the Native Americans own America, and the decedents of slaves are owned reparations.... be realistic.
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CigarGod
What is your process?
04:06 PM on 01/06/2010
Reality is....a whole lot of '48 Palestinians...are still alive.

Your objection is a richocet.
06:10 PM on 01/07/2010
Reality is Israel signed an international document which set new standards for attempts at land grabs by starting wars, in 1951. Show me an international treaty for descendants of slaves and American Indians and you will make your point.
09:35 PM on 01/06/2010
Palestinians ..like Ariel Sharon??? The Arabs LOST the wars they started to exterminate Israel..Israel WON! Get it yet! THE ARABS ...LOST THE WARS!!
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01:29 PM on 01/07/2010
They also lost the wars that Israel started but for some reason you never mention this. I assume that this might is right policy of your extends to other conflicts and means that the only international law worth bothering about is who has the largest arsenal?
04:28 AM on 01/08/2010
JordanisnotPalestine - they lost one significant war because American weapons were shipped over pdq. The weapons were the most advanced in the world. Without them the war would have been lost by Israel. It was American weapons not Israeli soldiers which won that war.
02:03 PM on 01/06/2010
I never said that. There are poor people everywhere, of every nationality. Nice try.
01:37 PM on 01/06/2010
The issues you define "thorny" are pretty straight forward intead. Just take the legal read.
1. frontiers: 1967 border.
2. settlements: All illegal. They must be dismanteled.
3. Jerusalem: Divided by the 1967 border.
4. Holy Places. Each country manages all sites that fall in its territory.
5. Palestinian right of return: All Palestinains have the right to return to their homes and lands.

Plain and simple. The are no rights to surrender. No compromise that implies surrendering Palestinian rights are acceptable. And by the way, the Balfour declaration is illegal. The mandate of Palestine was in fact a mandate to return the land to the Palestinians, not to give it to other people.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Mortifyd
02:19 PM on 01/06/2010
At the time, "Palastinians" meant Jews - so FAIL.
02:34 PM on 01/06/2010
Evidence?
02:44 PM on 01/06/2010
Palestinians at that time, included Palestinians Jews with today's Palestinians.... FAIL!!!
04:30 AM on 01/08/2010
NYkid you are so right.
11:17 AM on 01/06/2010
Justly criticizing Israel for actions in Gaza is not Anti-semetism. I'm sorry, but no one gets a blank check on their actions because they happen to belong to a Nation, race or ethnicity.
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kennyfloyd
My Micro-bio is empty
11:17 PM on 01/06/2010
I'll give an "Amen", to that.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jcwtts1
Elections have consequences
10:54 AM on 01/06/2010
We have to speak out against anti-semetic speech. We have an obligation to resist the temptation to act Jews because we are unhappy with Israeli policy. That is akin to attacking all Americans because of George Bush.

J
02:13 PM on 01/06/2010
I agree with you. I have many jewish friends across Europe who are deeply sad for the Palestinians.
It is so easy to label all Jews as zionists, this is just not true and I am quite sure there are many jews in Israel who are equally unhappy. Unfortunately the Governments they get seem unable or unwilling to relinquish the land belonging to the Palestinians (and Syria come to that) or to break the impasse. In fact the current Government is so right wing that there is no hope of a change in that situation.
The hostility towards the Israeli Government is of their own making. Noone can doubt that the war on Gaza and previously in Lebannon refugee camps were as Goldstone said crimes against humanity. To state this is not anti-semetism simply the facts.
04:34 PM on 01/06/2010
We must also be just as vigilant that we are not scared to attack Israeli policy because we are constantly told that to do so is antisemitic.
I am told all the time that I'm a Jew hater, simply because I find the behavior of right wing Israelis and their operatives within the IDF to be opposite to all standards of humanity.

It goes both ways - and from the debate I've seen, the antisemitism is rather a small percentage - people genuinely feel that Israeli has taken a fatalsitic turn - and that they themselves are working against their own interests by showing how little respect they have for anyone not Israeli - chilkdren included.
04:42 PM on 01/06/2010
"I am told all the time that I'm a Jew hater, simply because I find the behavior of right wing Israelis and their operatives within the IDF to be opposite to all standards of humanity."

Do you ruminate about right wings and militaries of other peoples of the world? I am 99% sure no.

Guess what that means about you.
10:34 AM on 01/06/2010
Chaim Weizmann concluded by saying, "Our wrong is the smaller one." And therein lies the real problem. All else is commentary.
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CigarGod
What is your process?
12:13 PM on 01/06/2010
Have a cigar.
10:21 AM on 01/06/2010
It will be interesting to see what Israel values more, its democratic government or its jewish identity when the Israeli Paleistinians become the majority and demand a referendum on the star of David being the national flag.

Either majority rule will allow the democratic process to move forward on paleistinian issues or
a jewish minority will impose an authoritairian system in the name of jewish security.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ira7
01:03 PM on 01/06/2010
What part of a 2-state solution don't you understand?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Mortifyd
02:20 PM on 01/06/2010
It sounds like they don't get the part where Jews still live there.
12:11 PM on 01/07/2010
the part where israel refuses to share jerusalem with the palistinians and their are 200,000 of them living in the eastern side of it. i just don't see how the israeli palisinians are going to just let that one go
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
opines
10:08 AM on 01/06/2010
When Israel agrees that in exchange for recognition of its right to exist by all neighboring states and secure boundaries they will give up the occupied territories including East Jerusalem, then peace will reign.

Placing the return of East Jerusalem on the negotiating table is the key to a peaceful resolution. It would signal the start of good faith negotiations and an end to the tight-fisted attempt to annex it.
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JacksonJones
Absit iniuria verbis!
06:11 PM on 01/07/2010
That may be a reasonable position, but it isn't the Palestinian's position (other than the few led by Mr. Abbas). Read the Hamas Charter. Read the PLO Charter.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
opines
07:51 PM on 01/07/2010
Jackson:

Put East Jerusalem on the middle of the table and the moderate Palestinians will be strenghtened and the radicals will lose support. But if the goal is to hang on to it (which it has been to date), then no accord can be reached.

Also, when one side has an overwhelming preponderance of military strength and refuses to bargain in good faith, terrorism is pretty much all that is left to the weaker side. They can't contest in set-piece battle.

Israel has developed a military industrial complex that sees a secure peace as a threat to its defense dole from the U.S.