Saddleback: A Watershed Moment?

I spent a good part of Saturday at Saddleback Church, in Orange County, CA blogging live on the Obama-McCain debate, but felt too close to the action to provide analysis so I decided to wait a bit and weigh in after I had a chance to absorb all that I had seen and heard.

I was sorely tempted to skip the debate altogether when I got an email informing me that I'd be "covering" the event from a tent on the Saddleback campus where print journalists were to be exiled to. I decided I'd have more fun in the sanctuary where I could experience the crowd and the candidates first hand so I made my way into the sanctuary where I began to blog only to be ejected by a Secret Service agent who said I was to go back to the tent. After wrangling a ticket, said agent again tried to eject me, but eyeing my ticket said I could stay but not my computer. We worked out a compromise that allowed me to hang out with the TV crews and I was able to get my first scoop of the evening when I learned that the evening's moderator Rick Warren was sick, and I filed my first reports here. and here

Some observations:

Obama started strong. In fact, just showing up at this kind of an event which Democrats of yesteryear might not have gone to was a victory for him. But after a few minutes he seemed to run out of steam. I don't think the blame lies with which candidate had or didn't have questions ahead of time. I blame Obama's performance on Hawaii and the strategic mistake his campaign made by scheduling such an important event so close to the end of his vacation. Obama looked like I feel for the first few days after I get back from vacation: listless, too relaxed and wishing I was still on vacation. His mind was elsewhere.

His answers were measured, thoughtful and nuanced-the only problem was this wasn't a crowd that was looking for nuance. They were looking for what McCain offered up: straight, concise and clear answers.

There were a couple of key moments that I think will be remembered and we may very well look back on this event as a watershed moment in the race for the White House:

First, when Obama answered the 'when does a baby gain rights' question his answer that it was "above his pay grade" didn't seem flippant to me at the time, but upon reflection I can see why some in the crowd thought so. It was a tough question to be sure, but he would have been better off answering that he didn't know or offering up an obvious answer that would fit the pro-choice paradigm: that rights are accorded to a fetus at birth.

As for McCain, the money moment was his admission that his greatest moral failure was the demise of his first marriage. This was exactly what churchgoers needed to hear and this will inoculate him from attacks that are likely to come late in the campaign about the manner and timing of his parting with his first wife. Although we learned later that he knew the question was coming, for a split second he hesitated as though he was still trying to decide whether he should really go there. He did and it was exactly what the crowd wanted to hear.

His answer on when a fetus acquired rights (at conception) was clear and direct and the crowd ate it up.

Although McCain likely thinks that his story about the Vietnamese prison guard who drew a cross in the sand was a hit, I don't think it was terribly impressive. As someone once observed, that story is really a testimony about the faith of the guard and not McCain. It wasn't a dud, but it's the kind of story one tells about another when one's own story isn't quite good enough.

McCain also didn't endear himself to wives across America when he failed to name his wife as one of the people he would turn to for advice. I realize she's not an expert on Georgia or the Ukraine, but it would be nice to think that he a) considers her wise and b) would turn to her for general advice.

There has been much reporting about the cone of silence issue as well as whether or not the questions were given to each candidate ahead of time. Only McCain knows if he cheated, but it didn't seem to me as if he had heard Obama's performance and as I said, I blame the vacation planning not any advance notice for the gap in their performances. At one point Obama referenced having been forewarned about a question and a PBS reporter and I exchanged glances and commented to each other that it seemed as though there had been some advance notice.

Obama hit a homerun with his comment that he considered anybody who had sold 25 million copies to be rich. Never mind that Warren's sales are now up to 40 million, the comment was a hit even with this crowd of Warren supporters who are likely hoping that Warren's ego doesn't grow in tandem with his book sales.

As for Rick Warren, I think he acquitted himself well. I was expecting softball questions with no serious follow ups. What we got instead were smart, hardball questions with few followups and too many interruptions. It wasn't quite as bad as Charlie Rose who talks 25% of the time and interrupts regularly, but Warren's interruptions prevented us from hearing where McCain and Obama would have come down on the question of the Supreme Court's centrist, Anthony Kennedy. Would they have nominated Kennedy? We'll never know because Warren didn't let them finish their sentences.

I once heard Warren speak at a conference in Silicon Valley and remarked at the time to friends that this was "not your parents' televangelist." He's light years away from the charlatans of the '80's, sophisticated and smart and has taken steps to not repeat the mistakes other high profile preachers have made. Giving back his salary to the church for the past 30 years was smart as is driving the same car, living in the same house and giving away 90% of his income. But it was disappointing to see that church members who, presumably, already give a tenth of their income to the church, were having to pay upwards of $2,000 to buy tickets to attend an event at their own church. In fact as I was leaving the event I ran into a recent college graduate who had eagerly told me last year of his decision to be baptized at Saddleback. He said he had gotten all of his questions answered about the candidates. I didn't ask him who he had decided to vote for but I did ask him how much the ticket had cost him. $500 he replied, which is probably a week's salary for him. There's something not right about that.

I hope Saddleback will take all of the money they raised last Saturday, deduct the hard costs of the event, and then return whatever money is left over on a pro-rated basis to those who attended. It's the right thing to do and of all people, Rick Warren should have taken steps to avoid even the slightest appearance of his flock being fleeced.

Nevertheless, this event established Warren not just as America's pastor but also a referee of sorts who tried valiantly to hide his own biases and gave both candidates a fair hearing.

John McCain and Barack Obama came to Saddleback essentially tied. Although Obama wins points for showing up, McCain was the clear winner and we may look back on this night as the moment when the tide shifted and McCain began to secure his wayward churchgoing base of voters who realize that he's not quite one of them, but will likely vote him anyway.

Follow Mark Joseph on Twitter: www.twitter.com/markmjm

Comments

[vsign]

Obama answered questions like he was still on vacation. He is not a leader except maybe a preacher in a megachurch.

Please Democratic Party - do not be so stupid as to give us Obama as the nominee of the party.

I used to think Democrats were smarter than Republicans. No more. They are acting like they are either ignorant of who the American people are or just distainful of us.

[mikegoodyearaz85338]

It is not too late to go with Clinton.

[Virgo4Obama]

"MICHAEL KINSLEY: Senator McCain,…Was George Bush wrong when he said the United States should be committed to the restoral of democracy in Haiti?

Sen. McCAIN, (R-AZ) “…I think it's a great leap from there, Michael, to say, therefore, then you're going to send young American men and women into harm's way. I think it's unacceptable, the situation in Rwanda today. I think that it's unacceptable that in Bosnia there's ethnic cleansing going on. I find it unacceptable in many other parts of the world, terrible things that are happening, but it doesn't mean that we use military force to rectify the situation, especially when- and I haven't heard this yet from- and I'll be interested in watching the President's speech. What is the exit policy? How do we get out of this situation? It's going to be an easy military operation to get in.”

September 14, 1994.

At Saddleback, McCain said simply that evil should be defeated. It's a great soundbite and drew predictable applause from the predominately conservative audience, but how does that stern, determined 'straight talk' mesh with what he said about defeating the evil in Bosnia and Rwanda?

He didn't offer that macho response as the recipe to defeat evil then. Would a President McCain send our troops into harm's way to defeat evil if it wasn't a threat to American interest? I doubt it. That soundbite answer (along with many of the standard stump speech responses) rang a bit hollow to me.

[xenophon]

HuffPost's Pick

"Nevertheless, this event established Warren not just as America's pastor but also a referee of sorts who tried valiantly to hide his own biases and gave both candidates a fair hearing."

Bogus! It sounds like Rev. Warren has already pompously appointed himself to be "America's pastor", along with the media. Rev. Warren isn't my preacher! When I need a preacher I'll be sure to let him know, until then I would like him to butt out and stop presuming to intervene in national politics.

No political candidate needs the condescending approval of a self promoting religious salesman, I oppose the whole idea of the Saddleback Church interview program.

Nobody at Saddleback Church speaks for me, and I wish they would stop presuming they do.

[JBoy]

You can oppose the idea of the Saddleback Forum, but please don't act like Obama was dragged there to be trapped. He is trying to appeal to the Christian voters. How can he connect with them if he hides from them? If it wasn't Saddleback, it would be some other megachurch.

[MyGuyO]

I have all my faith in Obama that he will come back fighting hard.
This is O's moment in time, he is destined to win this election.

[zoomzoomgal]

"Measured, thoughtful and nuanced" in regard to Obama means, "Gimme a second to think up an answer that might impress you with my winning smile and empty platitudes".

[zoomzoomgal]

This article was fair, and I applaud the writer for the courage it took to be fair, particularly on this site. Obama tanked on Saturday night. Oh, and BTW: Saddleback Church is not in San Diego County; it's in Orange County. San Diego is a huge retirement and military community, hence it's right-leaning in some respects, but it is also very progressive in others.
Same with Orange County.
What we saw Saturday night portends trouble for Obama.
I think Hillary will steal the nomination from him anyway. I recommend Susan Estrich's column from yesterday, for your reading enjoyment., titled, "Obama's Unconventional Error"
The DNC will be a blast to watch!

[gobarackgo]

We don't need "America's pastor". We need a decent President.

McCain turned in his best performance of the campaign. Let's see how he does at the real debates.

[zoomzoomgal]

I agree.

[Senzasord]

"no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Constitution of the United States of America Article VI secion 3.

[ShaunHammer]

"Just got back from vacation" "His mind was elsewhere"

First off, the questions were not hard to answer if you have a core belief structure and not have to think politically. They were just questions about how the candidates feel and think, it was not 3D Calculus.

Second, if his mind is elsewhere because of a relaxing vacation, that does not make much sense....where else was his mind? If you don't have a clear mind after a 6 day vacation in Hawaii I don't know when you would ever have a clear mind.

The point is, Barack is lackluster off tele-prompter.

Since your candidate did so poorly you had to accuse McCain of cheating to justify how poorly Barack did just being asked simple questions.

[nomobull]

keep telling yourself that.

[VSamuels]

John McCain and Barack Obama came to Saddleback essentially tied. Although Obama wins points for showing up, McCain was the clear winner and we may look back on this night as the moment when the tide shifted and McCain began to secure his wayward churchgoing base of voters who realize that he's not quite one of them, but will likely vote him anyway.
__________­__________­__________­__________­__________­__________­__________­________

Oh, really!

Warren got out in front of this event and touted it as a first look into how faith determines the decision-making and leadership qualities of each man. He did numerous interviews where it was crystal clear what he said he wanted to draw out of each man and even justified his premises based on asking each the very same questions.

By, Warren's very own measure, he failed; because he allowed McCain to tell stories and did not lead him in a direction which told the audience how McCain's faith was instructive in the way he thought, acted and behaved. He did caution Obama as well as remind him of what he was seeking to do. And, for you to grade Obama from outside of the frame of what Warren himself stated is a bit disengenous.

So, your diatribe while entertaining, just doesn't jive with the facts frankly of Warren, himself who conducted two very different interviews.

[zoomzoomgal]

Geez, V...calm down!

[DuPageDem]

"Obama started strong. In fact, just showing up at this kind of an event which Democrats of yesteryear might not have gone to was a victory for him."

That's a hoot. Showing up was his biggest mistake. These zombies aren't going to vote for O, even if he got up and walked on water.

When will O and McSame do this kind of forum in front of the ACLU? I'm waiting ...

[brizzle]

McSame in front of the ACLU? hahahahaha­hahahahaha­hahahahaha­ha

[Arleang]

It was what it was: a gathering of evangelical Christians for whom a pro life position is the #1 litmus test for POTUS.

I listened to Obama and made myself listen to McCain. McCain is about as nuanced as an ice cube and told the audience what they wanted to hear. The same performance by McCain in front of a less restricted audience might have drawn some cat calls.

It was what it was.

[mikegoodyearaz85338]

a massacre!

[Robin08]

Mark Joesph,

Boy do I disagree with your critique.

Anyone who has been paying attention to this campaign should have known John McCain was going to tell that audience exactly what they wanted to hear, whether he actually believed it himself or not. McCain went from calling right-wing evangelicals agents of intolerance to aggressively courting their support. From the jump we knew Saddleback was a Republican leaning venue with an audience McCain is desperate to win.

You say, " His [Obama's] answers were measured, thoughtful and nuanced-the only problem was this wasn't a crowd that was looking for nuance. They were looking for what McCain offered up: straight, concise and clear answers."

Your whole critique suggests that instead of being himself, Obama should have changed his persona to suit this particular crowd. "Measured, thoughtful and nuanced" is a good thing whether the folks at Saddleback recognize that or not and more importantly it's who Obama is. Fortunately Obama is not relying on right-wing evangelicals to win the WH. I think Obama's objective is to peel-off a few of the more thoughtful right-wingers. I don't think anyone expects the Democrats to win a majority of the right-wing evangelical vote.

I also disagree with the suggestion that Obama's recent vacation negatively affected his performance. Since when does taking time to rejuvenate negatively affect one's performance? We've got a long way to go between now and November. I think you're making too much of this interview.

[Perla]

Well said, Robin!

[brizzle]

excellent response. I agree wholeheartedly.

[john pa]

Right on!

Thanks, you saved me a post. I'll just go with yours.

[cdub1991]

I didn't see the event, so I won't comment on it. Just a general comment--that I never cease to be amazed by people who are impressed by answers that are "straight, concise and clear," but wrong. Being forceful is not the same is being correct. Or does that not matter in this post-modern world of ours?

[mabinog]

yep, decisive and forceful, but lacking in understanding or prudence. This dear friends is the wet dream of the authoritarian right.

[brizzle]

What surprises me every time is the general idea that "straight, concise and clear" equals true.

In politics, rarely is the clear and concise answer the truthful answer. Truth is complex. Reality is difficult to fully understand, even more difficult to explain...­especially to Christians, who generally don't follow syllogisms as well as their atheist counterparts.

Forget the politics for a moment. Forget the "Straight Talk Express". John McCain has lied through his teeth repeatedly over the last few weeks...on national television, and right there on youtube. His answers are always clear and concise...but still lies.

Simple men use simple language. Wise men use analogies and riddles. Which is which?

[mairs]

Seemingness makes it in today's world. What something seems and not what it is.

[conniedogs]

Good piece