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Matthew Alexander

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Interrogators Speak Out: America Is Morally Bipolar

Posted: 04/27/2012 7:04 pm

Another year, another round of the torture debate -- the pattern keeps repeating itself. Each year, the pro-torture advocates submit a new mouthpiece to put forth the arguments of former President George Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

We've heard from Marc Thiessen, the former Bush administration speech writer, who argued that torture was moral according to his Catholic values. And then Michael Hayden, the former director of the CIA, who defended the use of so-called Enhanced Interrogation Techniques and used his time at the agency to ensure there would be no accountability for torture. And there's been a host of media pundits in the pro-torture camp, such as Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh.

And each year the anti-torture advocates offer up whom? Well, they offer up actual interrogators -- people who have successfully interrogated terrorists and criminals. Let's review who is in this camp:

• Eric Maddox, the Army interrogator who found Saddam Hussein (a remarkable story recounted in his bookSearching for Saddam) and has conducted over 3,000 interrogations;

• Jim Clemente, a former FBI serial profiler who was sent to assist interrogators at Guantanamo Bay, and is a first-class expert on criminal behavioral analysis;

• Steve Kleinman, a Colonel in the Reserves and career Air Force Intelligence Officer with vast knowledge on the science of interrogations as well as experience interrogating going back to the invasion of Panama;

• Torin Nelson, an Army civilian interrogator with tours in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Guantanamo Bay;

• Ali Soufan, the FBI agent who investigated the USS Cole bombing and successfully interrogated detainees, including Abu Zubaydah;

• Robert McFadden, a former NCIS agent who worked withSoufan;

• Mark Fallon, a former NCIS agent who ran the Criminal Investigative Task Force at Guantanamo Bay;

• Don Borelli, a former FBI agent;

• Stu Herrington, a retired Army Colonel and one the military's most respected intelligence officers who conducted numerous successful interrogations in Vietnam (see his book Stalking the Vietcong);

• Jack Cloonan, a former FBI agent and Al Qaeda investigator;

• Joe Navarro, a former FBI agent and expert on detecting deception;

The list goes on to include even more professionals with a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge about interrogations (just take a look at this video to see what professionals say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI7vPFA6reU&feature=youtu.be.

And so we embark on another round where those who endorse torture, the men who have never done an interrogation, say it works and the anti-torture advocates, like me, who have successfully interrogated numerous detainees, say it doesn't and/or it isn't worth the long term consequences.

Well, count me in another group that says I don't care if it works 100 percent of the time. Chemical weapons work 100 percent of the time and we don't use those, even though (as the torture advocates assert), they would save lives. Flamethrowers are another weapon that work very effectively and could save lives, especially when clearing houses with suicide bombers, but we don't use those either. Not because it wouldn't save lives, but because these weapons cause unnecessary human suffering and the international community, led by the U.S., decided that they weren't worth the moral cost.

The sad truth is that America is morally bipolar. The country that I signed up to defend with my life has become an endorser of torture, an evader of accountability, and a place where the rule of law is arbitrary, especially for government elites who craft torture programs. The accountability we preach to other countries that is so important for a just society is absent in our own when it comes to torture.

To reckon with this disgraceful era will require transparency, which is why I call on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence to release the full version of its report on the handling of detainees and interrogation practices so that we can know the full truth about the torture that took place. Accountability starts with transparency.

America is a country I'm still proud of, that provided an enormous amount of leadership and resources to the Geneva Convention and the Convention Against Torture. What pseudo-patriots like Rodriguez want to tell us is that all that doesn't matter as long as we save lives. But what he fails to realize is that the very act of service means one is willing to give their life to protect our values. Our principles are worth that cost.

 

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Another year, another round of the torture debate -- the pattern keeps repeating itself. Each year, the pro-torture advocates submit a new mouthpiece to put forth the arguments of former President Ge...
Another year, another round of the torture debate -- the pattern keeps repeating itself. Each year, the pro-torture advocates submit a new mouthpiece to put forth the arguments of former President Ge...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Holly Smoke
Humor is the best defense for absurdity.
10:40 AM on 04/30/2012
I believe Hitler invaded Russia were meant to save Russian life from the tyranny of Communism.
My believe is validated by the fact that more life was wasted in Russia since Hitler did not succeed.
08:08 PM on 04/29/2012
Those who advocate Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (i.e., torture) always claim that employing these means saves lives. No one has ever provided one shred of evidence for this claim. I tend to believe that such means may save lives in the short term, but over the long term such means result in more hot-headed, angry (mainly) young men joining with extremist/terrorist groups. In the long run, such means may very well result in more deaths over an extended period of time which does much more harm to our country in the end - both in terms of a loss of respect in the world and in the on-going trend of pushing our country into becoming a more militarized, police state.
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06:06 PM on 04/29/2012
Thank you for continuing the fight for American justice. Let us hope that you and your colleagues, and the majority of the American people prevail in restoring America's moral high ground.
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MUDPUPPY
04:48 AM on 04/29/2012
Surfers go through more than those that are water-boarded and they keep doing it over and over. If you have ever been rolled on the bottom by a big wave that has packed sand in your swim suit, you know what I mean. I never did figure how that happened.
11:05 AM on 04/29/2012
Nonsense.

Victims of the waterboard are tightly strapped to the board and are then drowned into unconsciousness.... over and over and over again. The ensuing sense of sheer panic as breathing becomes impossible is unparalleled in all of human experience.

Resuscitation frequently requires an emergency tracheotomy, so the presence of a physician is required. Sometimes, resuscitation simply fails.

The stress levels measured in armed forces Special Operations trainees showed such extreme physiological and psychological stress that the military abandoned its use in training, rather than risk inflicting permanent damage on service members.

It is illegal for a reason.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SmileAndActNice
Utilitarianism, the -ism that works.
06:15 PM on 04/29/2012
Holding my hand over a candle as long as I can is a completely different experience than having my hand *held* over a candle by someone who doesn't like me and wants to hurt me while tied up.

Surfers are active agents in their sport whose decisive actions control their fate. At no point are they stripped of agency or made helpless.

Completely different.
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MUDPUPPY
04:44 AM on 04/29/2012
They could water-board me if there were only a remote chance it would save one of our troops life.
08:58 AM on 04/29/2012
There is no use for it other than to elicit false confessions for propaganda purposes.
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
03:57 AM on 04/29/2012
Well said. Not that anyone seems to be listening.
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02:28 AM on 04/29/2012
The participants of wars will invariably be labeled as Bi-polar if it's politically expedient.
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Josh Crawford
Just the facts, man!
01:59 AM on 04/29/2012
Since when have actual facts and "reality" mattered to Republicans? After all, these are the same people that believe that "tax cuts pay for themselves" and that "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter" and the Supply Side Economics actually works....The fact that they believe that our torturing people was a "good" thing is just another symptom of the more serious disease that is killing today's GOP: lack of touch with reality.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Micheal Anderson
When the Rebels become the Tyrants
12:32 AM on 04/29/2012
Facts, reality, math, science, nothing matters as long as you have faith.

Everyone that has ever been tortured says it doesn't work. Everyone that interrogates people says it doesn't work. The only people that say it does work have never had it done to them, have never done it to anyone else, and probably have never even served. And yet, they know more than people that have.

Work no longer matter, only having a good testimony.
10:08 PM on 04/28/2012
The great thing about torture is how many new terrorists it creates, people don't care why you torture others they only care that you are condoning it.

The other problem is that you start torturing people who are "suspected" of being a terrorist. So you end up torturing a lot of innocents or foot soldiers who eventually are released and go and tell their angry friends and relatives about their experiences.

Remember that the terrorists hate you for your freedom, not because you torture people.
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Chris Herz
03:03 PM on 04/28/2012
People who take up arms against our empire should consider themselves lucky not to be tossed alive from aircraft: A technique used by both our military in Vietnam and by our Argentine friends as they purged messy elements like trades unionists from their country.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Stephen the Grate
There is grandeur in this view of life ...
06:34 PM on 04/28/2012
Our empire? Sounds about as anti-American as it gets!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Joshua Sager
TheProgressiveCynic.com
07:27 PM on 04/28/2012
Spoken like a true "patriot"; I'm sure that the Nazis, as well as all others who used torture to create and hold an empire, used an identical rationalization.
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fearthebetenoire
Lying's like 95% of what I do. In your job? Sure.
07:38 AM on 04/28/2012
If America does not take the high ground, we will bury our ideals under the ground. The concept of American Exceptionalism that the right loves so much is not so much exemplified by capitalism and flag waving as it is by a set of ideals set out by our Founding Fathers and based upon reason and a recognition of moral rights, distinct from religious morality, that informs our laws (including international treaties) and our practices as a nation. We are special because we strive to be good, not just powerful.

To use the excuse of war as a pretext to engage in torture is to blur the clear distinction between America and our enemies. Whenever we sink to their level of brutality and lawlessness, they win.
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06:08 PM on 04/29/2012
Beautifully and movingly said. Fanned.
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nikanj
free the fnords
12:22 AM on 04/28/2012
The America we know has always been 'morally bipolar'. Nothing new there.
Ask any Native American. . . in English, of course, not in any Native tongue,
since they pretty much don't exist any more.
05:14 PM on 04/28/2012
Add to that list the people of...

East Timor, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Philippines, Cambodia, etc, etc.
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06:09 PM on 04/29/2012
We still speak over 500 languages. over 150 of them thriving.
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shryock
It never is what it is anymore
10:02 PM on 04/27/2012
On one hand we have the debate over torture.
According to the experienced interrogators quoted in the article, torture does not work.
But we should not be having an argument over whether or not it works.
We should be arguing over whether it is moral.

And yet, on the other hand, we have the concurrent debate over birth control.
We do not ask "does birth control work?"
Probably because it demonstrably does.
But we spend time and energy arguing its morality.

Seems it comes down to sex and violence, once again. One is moral, one is not.
But we seem incapable of deciding which is which.
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01:10 PM on 04/28/2012
Morality is what you feel after something happens. To argue morality is an underhanded way to setup the debate as to whether something works or not. All we can do is debate whether something is effective or not. You have to have trust in a person's moral history and believe they will not take Life simply because it is an effective thing to do for personal benefit.
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shryock
It never is what it is anymore
03:58 PM on 04/28/2012
No, morality is not what you feel after something happens.
What you feel after something happens could be regret, happiness, or any other number of things, but regret is not morality, happiness is not morality. Morality comes first.
Morality is what keeps you from doing things you believe are wrong in the first place.
If morality is only what you feel after something happens, why do churches spend so much time trying to teach morality?
Thou shalt not....... that does not mean thou shalt only decide if it was wrong or right after thou hast done it.
Under a moral code, right is right, and wrong is wrong, and neither takes efficacy into account. The moral code comes before, not after the action.
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Romeover
Civilization is for weaklings.
09:00 PM on 04/27/2012
Bipolar? You're being nice.

Try paranoid schizophrenic sociopath.