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Matthew Lynn

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This Economic Depression Will Run Until 2031

Posted: 12/16/11 02:38 PM ET

When will the depression come to an end? There are plenty of forecasts out there. Maybe the Olympics will lift the economy next summer. Perhaps the euro crisis will finally be resolved after Christmas. The emerging markets might grow fast enough to dig us all out of trouble.

All of them are way too optimistic. This will carry on until 2031.

For my new book, The Long Depression: The Slump of 2008 to 2031, I've been researching what economic historians refer to as the long depression of the 19th century. It started with an almighty crash on the Vienna stock exchange in 1873, and lasted until 1896, an epic 23 years.

Could we be witnessing another two-decade slump? Unfortunately so. The UK is already experiencing its longest depression since records began -- this downturn has already lasted longer than the slump of the 1930s. Europe is heading for a deep depression next year as the austerity regime bites. The U.S. will struggle to grow significantly. We are used to short, sharp recessions. But it is now nearly four years on from the credit crunch. And things are getting worse, not better.

We have been misled by comparisons with the 1930s -- a terrible depression, but one that was over quite quickly. The long depression of the 19th century came after an epic financial bubble, and had its roots not just in speculation, but in a currency crisis, and the arrival of a massive new industrial power -- the U.S. was disrupting the global economy then as China is now.

And today? We are going through something very similar. In truth, the developed world is facing not one crisis, but three.

There is a debt crisis. The developed world has been building up debts on a spectacularly scale over three decades. In the UK, total debts, adding up what individuals, companies and corporations owe, have reached a towering 450 percent of GDP. According to McKinsey data, global debt now stands at $158 trillion; that is up from $77 trillion in 2000. Put another way, global debt amounts to 266 percent of global GDP now, compared with 216 percent a decade ago. Debt on that scale is unsustainable.

Then there is a currency crisis. For most of the post-war period, the dollar was the anchor of the global economic system. That worked when the U.S. was the overwhelmingly dominant economy. It doesn't work anymore. The dollar is now down to 60 percent of reserves as central banks diversify away from a currency falling in value. At some point we will come up with a new core currency -- perhaps the Chinese renminbi, perhaps gold. But until we do, there will be more chaos ahead.

And finally there is the euro, perhaps the most dysfunctional monetary system ever created. Welding together the currencies of 17 very different economies, without any kind of fiscal union to compensate for the differences between them, was always a high risk experiment. We can by now surely agree that it has failed. The euro was meant to promote faster growth and greater stability. It has become instead a cause of depression and volatility. Until it is dismembered, there is little chance of the economy returning to stability.

None of those tasks can be accomplished easily. The euro will take several years to take apart, and if it falls apart, and chaotically will plunge the world into a deep depression. A replacement for the dollar will take a decade to establish itself. And only once those are achieved can we start paying our debt down to manageable levels.

The great 19th century depression lasted for more than two decades. The 21st century equivalent won't necessarily last quite so long -- but it isn't going to be over soon.

 

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01:56 PM on 12/21/2011
China has exported deflation to the entire world. They can do anything cheaper and faster. There will be lower values for homes, lower wages etc. for the foreseeable future. Everyone will have to cut back just like the 30's. Houston, we have a new "normal".
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Chef Typhoid Mary
Taxes are what we pay for civilized society.
09:09 PM on 12/19/2011
The quote below is from the book Capitalism and Freedom written by Milton and Rose Friedman. Dr. Friedman is the economist who is quoted most often when conservatives are praising free markets and capitalism.

"But we cannot rely on custom or conscious alone to interpret and enforce the rules; we need an umpire.These then are the basic role of government in a free society; to provide a means where we can modify rules, to mediate differences among us on the meaning of rules, and to enforce compliance with the rules on the part of those few who otherwise would not play the game."

For whatever reason, this part of Dr. Friedman's philosophy is never mentioned when it comes to making "free markets" work.
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Aesops
Appearances often are deceiving
11:56 PM on 12/20/2011
Very interesting - never heard that part before. The same thing happened to Keynes and Adam Smith; only part of the message was taken on board.
02:28 PM on 12/28/2011
Yeah, only the parts they like to hear while remaining deaf to common sense
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Kenneth Alton
03:20 PM on 12/19/2011
Coming up with a new core currency could be... tricky.

Given the scale of the global economy, gold may no longer be quite as serviceable: Despite new discoveries of ore, the supply is too small relative to the scale of the transactional economies it would be required to support. To put it bluntly, there may not be enough gold on the planet to allow for sufficient long term growth and stability. Instead price volatility triggered by the most minor discoveries of new supply would likely become so extreme that the "currency" itself would become a source of gross economic instability.

The problem with the renminbi is that The Middle Kingdom has, historically, never wanted that kind of level of involvement beyond its shores. Listening to the annual Party Congress, one is struck by the singular focus: What will promote stability, prosperity, security, for the Chinese people? The fate of the rest of the world is relevant only against this question. Yes, resources must be secured. Yes, military strength must be projected to ensure a continued supply of raw materials, food, resources. Yes, access to foreign markets must be maintained. But monetary hegemony? Not desirable.

Which raises an interesting question: What lies beyond the idea of a global currency? Perhaps the global economic changes are deeper and more profound than current theory can address?
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MSROADKILL612
love auto biographys. any appS to write mine?
06:58 PM on 12/19/2011
Good points

1/ - what happens if a mountain of gold is found? NB also - it doesnt really have much use. The people of highland new gubea used seashels like gold - but with better transport from the coast they lost their value. ie - rarity is all

2/ curious notion - a govt that cares about the welfare of its people - very unamerican

3/ sadly we return to the disastrous CDO notion. a sliced and diced note that is based on a weighted index of currencies (kind of what central banks have long done - they are bailing in droves - but am told its still 60% of reserves globally). sad tho the $ is - folks still run to the $us when it gets scary (like now) - lesser of two evils - not much of a choice. so much trust has been destroyed wall street antics which culminated in the gfc.
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guveqzero
Inventor and Innovator
04:33 AM on 12/19/2011
No, a revolution will take place. The crises will be canceled and the 1% will lose all. Then, we can begin again.
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MSROADKILL612
love auto biographys. any appS to write mine?
07:15 PM on 12/19/2011
check chinese history - have been doing that cycle for 5k years - peasants are leaderless - millions get killed so more to go around - staus quo gradually returns - thats the cycle
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Aesops
Appearances often are deceiving
11:58 PM on 12/20/2011
Let's hope; I'm tired of this irrational garbage being pushed by the central banks.
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Vapula
Failure is not an option
01:02 AM on 12/19/2011
It will not last that long if we have leaders of true stature who are prepared to sort out this mess. But we haven't and so we will all have to suffer. If it lasts 23 years that will become the new normal and anything other than that will seem strange.
03:18 AM on 12/19/2011
The main problem is nothing gets done unless one side has a majority. The economy sinks or rises after 2012, in 4 scenarios:
- Republicans win big. Republicans can pass anything, and the economy will go up.
- Republicans don't win big. Things continue as they have been for the second half of Obama's term. Economy *falls*.
- Democrats win, despite the current economy. This means people generally do not like the Republicans. Economy rises, because the Republicans cannot continue the current approach.
- Democrats win big. If the economy makes an unlikely turnaround by next year.
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freedomny
99% = TBTF
10:10 PM on 12/18/2011
I will probably be dead by 2031....hmmmm

I just want to be able to retire.
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floodberg
Attorney (ret.)
02:26 PM on 12/28/2011
FreedomNY, I'm with ya, but I'd be surprised if I made it to 2031..or even 2021.  I wanted to sell out before 2006 and move overseas (to someplace peaceful), but a family illness kept me here.  Having lost half my home equity like most folks, retirement is now problematic; my neighbors (homes paid off) are looking to sell, but offers are coming in at 1/2 current value (which is 1/2 pre-crash value, which is roughly what they paid in 1979) from speculators, no new home mortgages being written, no HOMECs either.)   Rental houses are empty because of many issues (credit, job and income issues for prospective renters, length of time to remove renters who fail to pay, etc.)
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muck-raker
give me liberty or give me death
06:38 PM on 12/18/2011
Woman Gets Jail For Food-Stamp Fraud; Wall Street Fraudsters Get Bailouts

Last week, a federal judge in Mississippi sentenced a mother of two named Anita McLemore to three years in federal prison for lying on a government application in order to obtain food stamps.

Apparently in this country you become ineligible to eat if you have a record of criminal drug offenses. States have the option of opting out of that federal ban, but Mississippi is not one of those states. Since McLemore had four drug convictions in her past, she was ineligible to receive food stamps, so she lied about her past in order to feed her two children.

The total "cost" of her fraud was $4,367. She has paid the money back. But paying the money back was not enough for federal Judge Henry Wingate.

Wingate had the option of sentencing McLemore according to

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/woman-gets-jail-for-food-stamp-fraud-wall-street-fraudsters-get-bailouts-20111117#ixzz1gvsWINYd
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floodberg
Attorney (ret.)
02:30 PM on 12/28/2011
'Liberty and Justice for All' has really changed.  For lawbreakers, It's liberty for the 1% and Justice for the 99%. 

Bravo, Muck-raker.  With I could refan, but here's a fav.
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Peter Combs
Amused by the illogical..no, NOT a Republican
09:47 AM on 12/18/2011
At this point predicting how long the situation will last is very speculative. While it's true the EU is a mess for all of it's overspending for the last 40 years and the EU as it was designed was poorly done, the downturn in Europe is not as severe as it could be, the question is how bad will it get, right now no one knows.

Here in the states the DOW is back to very healthy levels, we have an ample tax base and in general earnings for many companies are actually excellent. Unemployment here is and has not been anywhere close to the levels seen during the first years of the Great Depression which 3 years in was over 15%..using the timeline of 1929 (3.4% unemployment) as the start. Ours started in late 2007 spiked in 2010 and now has drifted back down to 9%.

The EU will iron out its problems over the next two years, GDP looks flat to slightly negative. For now predicting a 23 year depression is a bit of a reach.
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becky bradshaw
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth
01:41 PM on 12/18/2011
It is understandable how one might miss the signs. The media has been reporting through "rose-colored glasses", and the government statistics are filtered to present a pretty picture. The information is there, but one must be diligent.

The stock market is not a good measure in these times. People must park their money somewhere, and for many, their habit has been stock. Most of Fortune 500 companies are paper lions.

Globalism is leading to a global standard of living. An average worker in China and India makes about $200 per month (40% of all workers live in these two countries). It will take a few years, but American and European workers will need to meet this standard. This will apply to almost all workers, including medical, education, government, legal, retirees, food, etc. The "Cost of Production" includes just about everything.

Reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/03/opinion/will-china-stumble-dont-bet-on-it.html?_r=1
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MSROADKILL612
love auto biographys. any appS to write mine?
09:21 PM on 12/19/2011
u r right on all counts - esp the global standard of living. In thailand its more like $100pm & vietnam is even less - 6 workers to a room - often hard physical work in a hot humid climate w/ unbreathable air

clever cheap technology makes almost all jobs in rich countries able to outsourced off shore & the remainder can be replaced by lenient immigration

forget the fictional time line for the depression - the old days are gone even for burger flippers - a return to mercantalism is really the only hope of a wage differential for lucky citizens of countries w/ natural, accumulated wealth etc.
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Trustfunded1
08:17 AM on 12/18/2011
World War will get things going again.

When it starts I'm moving to somewhere remote and deep in the ground.
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spinotter11
Spinning through life and trying to understand it.
12:18 PM on 12/18/2011
And you'll stay put without a single movement until the end of time!
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Aesops
Appearances often are deceiving
12:00 AM on 12/21/2011
Darn that was my plan...
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MSROADKILL612
love auto biographys. any appS to write mine?
06:53 AM on 12/18/2011
1929 was the catalyst for the depression - but it didnt get really bad til 1934. if the gfc happened in 2007? - if history repeats - that should be coming up pretty soon.
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Aesops
Appearances often are deceiving
12:01 AM on 12/21/2011
Yeah I think a lot of people have missed that important tidbit of history. Good thing you're paying attention.
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MSROADKILL612
love auto biographys. any appS to write mine?
06:49 AM on 12/18/2011
How do you know economists have a sense of humor - they use decimal points.
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MSROADKILL612
love auto biographys. any appS to write mine?
06:48 AM on 12/18/2011
Gosh - sensible comments - what next - where is the red vs blue brigade?
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notdarkyet
End the Drug War.
12:34 PM on 12/18/2011
The business section is usually more realistic. People think here. That's why I come here.
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MSROADKILL612
love auto biographys. any appS to write mine?
06:36 PM on 12/19/2011
Not so sure - so do i but plenty of em here too
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MSROADKILL612
love auto biographys. any appS to write mine?
06:43 AM on 12/18/2011
One reason cited for the depression was over production of goods when wages were so low, too few buyers. So they laid off & just sold inventory to even fewer buyers.

Bit like now, china produces so much & so few americans can buy.

I also suspect 1929 was when hire purchase was taking off. no one could pay the piper after that. suspect you could buy repossessed radios, cars & washing machines for a song. similar now also only worse due to r/e overspending problems.
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Aesops
Appearances often are deceiving
08:23 PM on 12/17/2011
2031 you say? Tell me what would you be willing to wager and I'll tell you if I believe your hypothesis. The narrative fallacy alive and well, past to future like a neatly fitted stencil - if only it had ever worked out that way.

That being said, I appreciate the balls to the wall doomsday scenario as it must surely count as more lucid than the continual sophmoric "muddle through" platitudes offered by most talking heads.
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drbob601
Soylent Green is People
07:09 PM on 12/17/2011
I highly doubt that anyone can make an even moderately accurate economic forecast for the next twenty years. Trying to do so is folly, imo. And yet there are still plenty of "experts" who like to try, for some reason.
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MSROADKILL612
love auto biographys. any appS to write mine?
08:06 AM on 12/18/2011
as posted - u know they have a sense of humor cos they use decimal points

sorry about the identity theft (well not true - i didnt know u were out there) - but there is an old connection w/ alfred am afraid