One Unrepentant Zionist and the Two State Solution
That one Zionist would be me, but I know that I'm not alone. Take President Obama: he sounded like another unrepentant Zionist in Cairo this week.
Zionism is an 19th Century political (agrarian socialist) idea that Jews - particularly those residing in Europe - should establish a "Jewish" state in some or all of the area that is currently the footprint of Israel, the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Jews of the day came to the conclusion that the Europeans weren't thrilled with - and never had been - our presence in their counties. The English evicted us, the Spanish offered us the opportunity to convert to Christianity (or die), the Eastern Europeans repressed us and the French scape-goated us in the Dreyfus Affair. (The Crusades weren't too wonderful for us either.) This was all well before Nazi Germany got around to creating the mother of all genocides at our expense. Had it not been for that last fact, the modern state of Israel might not exist. Nevertheless, it is hard to get around the reality that more Jews died in the Holocaust than live in the state of Israel today.
Many of those who died, I might add, shared my atheist tendencies and were ethnically identical to those living all around them. But when the whip came down, others decided who was a Jew and who was not: the facts, religious practices or personal beliefs of the individual had little or nothing to do with it. The lesson imparted by this experience is that it doesn't matter whether you think that you are Jewish or not: what matters is the opinion of those who have the power to kill you. Further evidence of this is supplied by the genocides of Rwanda, Cambodia and Sudan - all massive tragedies in their own rights. Knowing all this, I'm thankful for the creation of the modern state of Israel and believe that its continuity is of vital importance to Jews the world over.
What I do not support is the idea of a theocratic, apartheid regime that represses the right of Palestinians to have their own state. Small as Israel, the West Bank and Gaza may be - collectively, a bit smaller than the landmass of New Jersey - it is better for the Israelis to help the Palestinians establish their own state than to attempt to be a functioning democracy that denies equality to what will be shortly be the majority of inhabitants. The faster we can all make that a reality the better.
Stopping the expansion Jewish settlements in the West Bank will help create the conditions in which a Two State solution is possible. It is not all that the Israelis need to do, but it's a concrete step in the right direction. I believe that this is precisely why the Obama administration is being suitably firm on the issue.
Of course, Israel cannot achieve peace on its own and it requires responsible partners in the process. That means that the Palestinians will have to make plenty of difficult concessions of their own; it also means that Israel's Arab neighbors and other Muslim countries will have to stop appealing to their "main streets" with anti-Semitism to distract people from their own theocratic, monarchical and despotic misdeeds. Peace will not easy, but it's only likely to occur when two states exist where currently there is one.
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Whatever else Zionism may be, it is predicated on usurping the Palestinians in all or part of their homeland. Israel has become what Theodor Herzl suggested the "Jewish State" would be, "a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism.
I have to say that this is all getting a little bizarre. Presumably, you are the citizen of nation that was established on slavery, the annihilation of the Native American population and has recently – and rather cheerily – violated the Geneva convention. So while I'm impressed that you quote Herzl, I take exception to your selective reading of history. Perhaps you should also quote with equal vehemence the rationale that the drafters of the US Constitution used to determine that an African American was 3/5ths of a white skinned man.
And while we're at it, you don't mind if we take a look at your well-turned phrase, "...misgui
Once again, to be clear. I lean toward atheism. I think the settlements should be stopped. Seeing the political process manipulated by religious extremists anywhere, whether Israel, Iran or the good old US of A, makes me crazy. Nevertheless, Israel does exist and as evidenced by the vitriol being slung around, it's apparent that it does so for good reason.
The old "you're all anti-Semites and this is why we need to steal land from the Palestinians" canard.
Good guess. I am the citizen of a country that was founded "on" slavery, or more correctly, founded with slavery. But we fought a bloody war against partition and slavery, just as Jews and Palestinians should fight against partition and Zionism.
And yes again, I do hold Judaism as special in this regard because I am Jewish and I believe the Zionist ideology is bad for Jews, Palestinians and Israel.
But I think it is really you who are holding Judaism in some special regard by finding excuses for its embrace of Zionist anti-nativism.
First you'd have to get a whole lot of Zionists and hardliners both here and in Israel who agree with you for this to work. That's been the major stumbling block. They'll feign desire for peace then devise an agreement that gives the Palestinians nothing concrete or access to decent arable land. The Palestinians won't agree and then the world will blame them for continuing the conflict. That's been the dynamic for decades.
It has to be a fair agreement and Israel is not going to act against it's own interests. Fairness is going to be tough to achieve. I don't think the hardliners have any desire for a fair agreement, why should they? Israel controls everything now. So a few people die? Mostly Palestinians. They got the land, control the country and that's all that matters.
I'm a former Catholic, present agnostic. So I have no dog in the fight except knowing that the one of the core reasons for instability in the Middle East is this conflict. I know it is in the world's best interest this conflict be resolved.
It's going to take a brave leader in Israel to do something about it and Netanyahu has always come off as the hardliner type. He was cheerleading the Neocons that controlled our government and he's been itching to attack Iran. Obama can't do it without Netanyahu and I just don't see it happening.
The core of instability in the Middle East is oil. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is one of the side shows that is exacerbated by a wretched political system that leaves the swing vote in the hands of fanatics. Hence, most Israeli governments are beholden to hardliners.
On the other hand, Jordan is monarchy. Syria is an autocracy. Lebanon is a semi-functional mess. Egypt is a repressive regime. In other words, Israel is surrounded by powder kegs, which are themselves flanked by autocratic regimes who repress their people.
Sometimes, I think that it is hard for America - flanked by two oceans, Canada and Mexico to understand.
Good lord, I have had it up to /here/ with the racist Zionist premise that Israel is the "only democracy in the Middle East" and that "Arab governments are fundamentally incapable of democracy.
Even Iran -- the favorite scapegoat of Israelis now that Iraq has been "neutralized" -- is a democracy with a constitution -- something Israel can't lay claim to. Jews in Iran have constitutionally protected civil rights -- and they're even guaranteed a seat on the Iranian parliament, no matter what percentage of the population they make up.
Compare and contrast that with "democratic" Israel, that routinely tries to ban non-Jewish political parties every time election season comes around.
I remember when Hafez al Assad was in power. I didn't hear Zionists complain when he put down the Muslim Brotherhood uprising. I didn't hear Zionists complain when Phalangists in Lebanon helped Israel perpetrate the Sabra and Shatila massacres. I didn't hear them complain when the Egyptians officially banned the Muslim Brotherhood. Don't hear you complaining about how Jordan effectively banned the IAF and Arab Land Party by changing electoral rules. Do you really want democracy in the ME, or just want everybody to be pro-Israel?
I don't know how you achieve the latter, and maybe you never will. But ceasing settlement activity and tearing down all illegal settlements, handing back the Golan Heights and Shebaa Farms and stop taking all the water would be a good start. This isn't about OIL, sir, it's about WATER and always has been.
I believe in Israel's continued existence and security - within the Green Line. I believe in the right of Jews to return to an ancestral home. But Eretz Yisrael is an unobtainable dream. America's Founders never implied it was our God-given right to take over the entire continent, to have the great lakes and rivers to ourselves and deprive native peoples of water to irrigate their orchards and crops, to bathe, to drink. In fact, Thomas Jefferson was firmly against that (read his letters).
"Zionism" has deservedly negative connotations - it shouldn't. It should have a clear and singular purpose, one of humanity and righteousness, to live and let live.
It's also about arms. I read a very interesting interview with an IDF general a few years back. His assertion was, if the U.S. stopped arming Israel (i.e. forcing Israel to buy its weapons, when it has enough weapons), then the Egyptians wouldn't demand the U.S. sells them arms in a perpetuation of an "arms race" between the two countries. I'll see if I can find it.
Israel has the know-how and the technology to build its own weapons. It has a robust economy. It is home to a professional and intellectual class which gives it certain natural advantages. It receives aid for the needy from Jewish charitable sources (I regularly get hit up for donations). It doesn't need financial help from the United States taxpayer, but it seems it is rather forced into accepting it. And I don't understand why - perhaps you can shed some light on this.
The Two-State Solution might have made sense at one point in time, but I assess that we are rapidly approaching the tipping point on the solution making any sense going forward. The Israelis' intransigence in agreeing to stopping their settlement policy because of their own internal political dynamics demonstrates the problem for all to see. After forty years of convincing themselves that they can own the West Bank and Gaza, not to mention the Golan Heights, without any repercussions, they can't bring themselves to give up this poisoned dream. Soon, the control of the occupied territories will be too fragmented and the settlers too well entrenched for anybody to reverse the tide of "facts on the ground." Likud will have gotten what it wanted in the short run, only to lose the strategic situation.
It's a pity that a more forgiving peace had not been offered forty years ago, when the wherewithal existed to even compensate the displaced Palestinian refugees for opting against returning to their ancestral lands. Now, nobody can provide that compensation, even if it was acceptable. We've all driven into a cul-de-sac politically, with tire spikes behind us and a bomb counting down inexorably in front of us. I would ask what blame the average US citizen should place on the hard-line Israeli supporters in the US when the global economy is shattered because of their persistent blackmail on US politicians? Unlike the Dreyfus Affair, many charges will unfortunately be true.
At the rate Israel is going, it's going to collapse under its own weight. As long as it constitutes an existential threat to its neighbors and beyond (threatening over an over to bomb Iran and hopeless screw the American troops in neighboring countries already fighting a war on multiple fronts? Classy) the other countries in the Middle East will feel the need to militarize, seeking nuclear weapons to put them on an even keel with Israel.
If the settlers have their way, then yeah, the world will have no choice but to impose a one-state solution -- and studies and polls have shown, at least a quarter of Israel's Jewish population is prepared to pull up stakes and move back to Europe or the US if that happens. Most Israelis aren't fanatical Zionists -- they're just people who want to get by. And thanks to the racist rhetoric that has been a part of Israeli culture since its inception, most Israelis are deathly afraid of contact with Arabs. You thought "white flight" was bad in the US during the 80's and 90's? Just wait.
And many that don't flee -- especially those few sensible people who are generally left-leaning -- will be willing to abandon an apartheid Israeli government for the opportunity to have an actual voice in a genuine, Palestinian democracy. So one way or another, Israel will be paired down to its extremists. And there just ain't enough of them to stand up to the whole rest of
Zionism and fanaticism are not the same thing.
You are completely wrong. Israel did, in fat, offer to return ALL of the captured land in 1967 in exchange for peace and recognition. The united Arab response was: no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel.
Wrong again!
http://www
There's our documentation of what the Arabs have promised to do -- on paper. Recognize Israel if Israel returns to its lawful 1967 borders.
Where's your documentation of this mythical promise by Israel to withdraw to its legal borders, chief?
Even if that's true, it's not 1967, it's 2009!!!
The creation of Israel was one of the biggest mistakes of the 20 century. Europe exporting it's guilt over the mistreatment of Jews into the middle east was the last hurrah of 19-century colonialism, and has handed the world a mess that is both intractable and insoluble because it involves religion.
Anyone who thinks that the US is going to come up with some brilliant plan to 'resolve' this mess is smokin' the good stuff, it's premised in the existence of a level of competence at predicting and controlling events that I have never observed and see no reason to believe exists.
What should US policy be towards this debacle.?
Complete suspension of all direct and military aid to Israel
Completely open diplomatic relations with all parties in the region including Iran.
Complete abandoning of any effort by the US to 'broker' a so-called peace.
Leave Israel to resolve it's own problems and protect itself (as the only nuclear power in the region they should be able to).
Relations to Israel should be based on the interests of the US which are not necessarily the same.
I wouldn't have a clue how to judge what would qualify what would make the list of 'biggest mistakes of the 20th Century, and I think that you underestimate the Zionist vision, which is far greater than just European guilt. Let's face it, what happened to the Jews of Europe was far more evil than mistreatment.
With respect to the role of the US, it is hard to argue with the notion that we are particularly gifted at controlling events, but that does not mean that the Two State vision is wrong. And, like it or not, the US has a role to play. We, after all, are historically entwined in the Zionist project, having nurtured it since the state's creation.
Moreover, I think that while some of what you recommend is sound – e.g., opening dialog with Iran – I think that the idea of simply abandoning Israel would result in the creation in the sort of enormous regional instability that would be extraordinarily counter to US interests. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a serious issue, but it's far from the only one in the Middle East. That's why the holistic approach of the current administration seems so much better than the 'silver bullet' approach of the last.
"I wouldn't have a clue how to judge what would qualify what would make the list of 'biggest mistakes of the 20th Century, and I think that you underestimate the Zionist vision."
Begs the question here:
Why don't you please tell us, give us a verifiable list of all the positive contributions that Zionism has so graciously bestowed upon the middle east since its implantati
Tell us also, while you're at it, how is it right or fair to give Europeans 'refuge' and land-mass in the middle east, whatever religion these Europeans are?
Zionism is an exclusive-ist ideology. It worked (in a violent way) in the 20th century.
It will never survive in the 21st century that has already defined itself as the age of inclusiveness.
To think that you can be both Zionist and inclusive is an oxymoron.
There can be no "holistic approach" unless Israel freezes settlement building completely and stops demolishing Palestinian homes and starts demolishing homes on occupied territory.
I don't believe in the Zionist project for this reason: Giving Israel a piece of land in the Middle East was one of the worst decisions of the 20th Cetury. As things evolved in the West, Jews now live very well in the U.S., Canada and other European countries.
That being said, any piece of land anywhere in the Western world, Canada for instance, that has so much land and a small population and even the U.S. at the time would have been better choices. Giving Israel land in the Palestinian Territories just made "religious" Zionists more delusional believing they could take more and more and fulfill some kind of ridiculous biblical birthright that is at the root of this fiasco!
Man's humanity to man should take precedence over any "biblical birthright"; not to do so is to deny God Himself and anything above and beyond our ego.
I don't believe Obama did or said anything different from the 5 previous Presidents. Talk is cheap! Unless financial aid is pulled from Israel, nothing will ever change. We will have to endure more of the same or worse.
The zionist vision has existed since the collapse of the jewish revolt in 70 AD however it only actually happened as a result of guilt over the holocaust.
I do not know whether the 2 state 'solution' is 'right' (whatever you think that may be) or not.
I am quite sure that YOU do not know whether it's 'right'.
I do not believe that ANYONE really knows.
And know one knows
My parents 'abandoned' me almost 30 years ago when I turned 21 and began to run my own life.
If Israel must remain in perpetuity as some kind of ward of the USA isn't that a real admission that as a country it isn't actually viable?
Most people don't know Jewish history, and they equate Zionism with the Holocaust. Of course Zionism was reiterated first in the 19th century, but the concept started with the Exodus. They don't get it that Jews were forced to "assimilate" or leave pretty much everywhere they settled. They don't get that wherever they did end up, they were treated differently - had to pay higher taxes, could only do certain jobs, could not worship openly, were confined to living in "Jewish sectors", etc. How did so many Jews end up concentrated in Poland? It's in the history books, all one has to do is look.
This may be the first real opportunity for real peace in the Middle East. I agree with your assessment.
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