Reading The Pictures: .38 More Ways to Counter the Teabaggers?

I just saw this photo story at TPM. After several incidents last week in which right wing radicals showed up at health care meetings wearing guns, we now have this example of a pro-reform demonstrator, identified only as "Josh," appearing at a weekend tea party protest packing heat.

Given that singular radical statements can disproportionately alter the political narrative (link), do you think this protest (and the image it obviously was intended to inspire) provides "an effective" demonstration? In other words, does it realistically help Obama and the cause of reform in any way? And more to the point, can fighting the symbolism of fire with the symbolism of fire actually help neutralize (as opposed to simply incite) the irrational behavior and radical gestures of the extreme right?

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(image: unattributed. Via TPM)

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Comments

[OdinsEye]

So you want to counter Teabaggers (never mind that this term refers to dangling male genitalia one someone else's head, usually when they are drunk) by carrying a .38?

OK. Your first step will be to actually have a handgun and a holster. The holster should be one with positive retention (flap, thumbstrap, etc), not a simple open sleeve.

Second, research local and state laws to see if open carry is allowed in your state or city. It is not in about 15 states. If it is not allowed, you are SOL. DO NOT RELY ON HEARSAY, VERIFY OR HAVE A LAWYER VERIFY THE LAW(S)!!! If a permit is required, have fun trying to get one.

If it is allowed, know what the restrictions are (some places may be off limits) including methods of carry (many places will require a handgun to be holstered and the firearm/holster viewable from the front, back and one side, meaning chest rigs and shoulder holsters are out, as are any holsters which tucks into a pocket or waistband).

Notify the police of your intentions. This is less of an issue on private property, but do it any way.

If you will be on private property, obtain permission from the property owner, preferably in writing with a signature.

[OdinsEye]

Do not remove your firearm from the holster. If you do, you will be charged with brandishing. Also, do not allow your firearm to become concealed in the slightest by a shirt, jacket, or other object. If you do, you will be charged with unlawful carry of a concealed firearm. Do not fidget with, touch, or reach for your firearm, these movements can be construed as threats.

Comply with instructions from law enforcement. They may assign someone to keep and eye on you. They may question you.

[OdinsEye]

If you comply with all of the above, as the armed demonstrators have so far, then it is unlikely that the groups you are protesting against will have any problems.

In fact, they might just come of to talk about firearms with you, and once you have established some common ground, you might find yourselves discussing things instead of just standing around shouting slogans at each other.

[SSGVABEACH]

Who want's to bet how long it will be til an actual fire-fight breaks out at one of these get togethers, cause why bring it if your not gonna return fire. And you know some innocent kid is going to be hit.

[Berettasskeeter]

If you are the Staff Sergeant your name seems to claim, then you likely do some study of firearms use. Where has the lawful carry of concealed or open weapons led to the conflicts you describe? In modern times of course, and in America.
Semper fi

[Oldsop]

I agree. As an old SSG you are correct on this point.

[bdaved]

I don't understand this sense of exceptionalism, that somehow because we're modern-day Americans we just wouldn't resort to that kind of violence. I disagree with you and I believe the possibility is very real. If people can walk into churches and classrooms and museums and kill people, why would people be incapable of violence at a political event? And I don't agree with the way you frame your question: I wouldn't say that the lawful carry of concealed or open weapons would lead to a conflict, but that the conflict could lead to a misuse of the weapons. Fools carry guns, too, and if you disagree with that statement you forfeit your credibility to talk about them. Guns that is.

[Wake-up]

1) Where was this... if Texas that's legal

2) Does he have a permit to carry? If so, how cares....

3) Looks like a Cop, Cops have to carry guns when off duty.

4) How do you know he's a radical? Looks pretty calm to me...

So, why don't you pedal your fear mongering else where, shame on you for writing this with apparently "Zero-fact­s"... You sir are a left-wing-extremest loser.

[zezel]

I disagree with this guy's sign but agree with his right to show up armed, it's legal so why not.

[valkyrie607]

No, it' still bullsh!t when done by "our" side rather than the opposition. It legitimizes the idea that the First Amendment needs support from the Second Amendment. What good is freedom of speech if you have to enforce it at gunpoint? I'll pass.

Plus, his sign is incomprehensible.

[PeterGSW]

I hate to say this, as a progressive, but our First Amendment rights were won and defended largely at gunpoint. King George would not let go.

The sign is not terribly impressive, but If I have to help defend my country from a bunch of gun-toting loonies, white supremacists and plutocrats, then I'll not go quietly.

I guess we are fortunate so far in that most of these guys are not too bright, but a fellow named Tim McVeigh managed to take a lot of lives following the right wing stupid train.

[Oldsop]

Sorry mcveigh was not right wing. When you go beyond the end either left or right I don't think either side can be blamed or at least included in the lunacy. IMHO

[valkyrie607]

You're missing the point. Tom Paine did not go around handing out pamphlets and threatening to beat up anyone who disagreed with him. I reckon he would have been a lot less persuasive had he done so. Yes, we fought to establish a new government with laws protecting free expression. But the law itself, not the guns, is the garantor of freedom of expression. The need to brandish guns to emphasize the force of one's opinion only means that you are not truly convinced of your own argument, or that you are uninterested in persuasion or other types of rational discourse.

[Vurz]

My gf and I have had this conversation a few times. If a few hundred liberal gun owners were to show up packing to each town hall in their state, would it help at all?

I argue against it. While it would be awesome to pose for pictures with my loaded AR-15 and make the news like the right-wing radio guys (who I'm sure get lots of letters from the ladies now) showing them that they are outnumbered (like in the November election) would just make them feel more inadequate than they already do. Inadequate people are stupid around guns, and one of them would snap, risking innocent people.

Better for them to think I'm not armed anyways.

[NCIndependant]

+1

[DanBest]

"One must not put a loaded rifle on the stage if no one is thinking of firing it." Chekhov.

Political theater in America has devolved. This is the result of conceal/carry laws. People aren't defending themselves. They're putting Chekov's maxim to the test.

[OdinsEye]

I think you mean open carry laws. Concealed carry laws mean the firearm cannot be seen. Most state allow open carry and the laws date back decades.

[Oldsop]

Which episode was that on??

[NCIndependant]

*snort*

[sardan1972]

You have successfully convinced me that you do not tell the truth. Of all the town hall meetings I've attended, which were several, and of all the ones I've seen reported on the news, I've seen neither radicals, nor gun-toting demonstrators.

I have seen mothers, fathers, grandparents, republicans AND democrats attempting to tell their congress-person that they're concerned with the wording of the house version of the health care bill. Yet, you aspouse as to any and all protesters as being both irrational and radical. You are either regurgitating talking points without having even attended a single town hall meeting, or you're so closed-minded and blind that you refuse to see what is actually going on right in front of you.

[txsnafubar]

So, you haven't seen any radicals or gun toters at the town hall meetings you allege you
attented. Does that mean it hasn't happened somewhere else ? maybe you just had your head so far up your ... , that you didn't notice. Or maybe, you're just lying or maybe blind. The people I've seen aren't smart enough to read the proposed legislation, much less understand it enough to have a valid concern. You sound like the one using GOP talking points, so why don't you just shut up !!!

[sardan1972]

I've read the whole bill. Several people at the last meeting had all 1018 page copies of the bill as well. ... It's ok. I know you don't believe anyone else who has a different opinion. Obviously, since I disagree with you I MUST be lying or have my head up my ...

So you're always right and I have to shut up now. Nice. Good comeback. You can't prove me wrong so you tell me to shut up. What a way to win others to your point of view.

[Joao Alvarez]

yeah right.

We have seen the town hall meetings covered by the media and the astroturfed 'protests'. Granted there are genuine people there who have genuine concerns but they are mostly drowned out by the t'baggers and gun-nuts.

Thanks to these deluded morons the republican party will be in permanent minority.

[sardan1972]

My personal observations disagree with you. There were a few people there that seemed to like to chant and yell slogans, but I have never seen a protest, against republican or democrat that hasn't had the EXACT same type of people there. Why are these protests so disingenuous when one's against Bush were so genuine?

[sardan1972]

Also, Astroturf = fake protesters that are hired by one party to protest for money? The only 'astroturfers' I have seen are the ones on the liberal side.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/obama-healthcare-reform.html

[ReesieKitty]

Maybe you just aren't going to the right debates... are you implying that all the photos and news footage on ALL networks of radical, gun toting protesters behaving badly and refusing to let their neighbors and fellow citizens even speak or ask questions are all FAKE? All of them? Just because - supposedly- YOU have never seen anyone act that way? Just kindly parents and grandparents?

[bdaved]

It's getting where I don't see very well either. I've got vision care through my medicare advantage plan, though, and I hope you've got something comparable.

[YellerDawg]

Flagged as funny.

[Bartolo27]

He shouldn't do that. The Confederates don't like it when a pro-American exercises his right to bear arms. How dare he. This country belongs to the anti-American Confederate Republican party.

[indymaggie]

Oh, Michael Shaw, stop! Those people demonstrating did not look like radical rightwingers to me. They looked like ordinary folks who want some answers. Stop following the intolerant ideologists. Think for yourself for a change. Stop demonizing people who are merely concerned with what's happening.

[Appleton]

Please. "Ordinary" folks do not feel the need to carry weapons with them to discussions on health care reform. Having a pistol strapped to my hip at an event dealing with a controversial topic is intended for one purpose only-intimidation. Do you really think any of these folks saunter into Walmart every Saturday morning with a .38 in one hand and a grocery list in the other?

[OdinsEye]

I've seen it. Walmart can post their property so as not not allow open carry , but if they do not, it is allowed in most states. However, just as with the people at the rallies/events/town halls, the firearm must be holstered. If it is in their hand, it is considered brandishing and they will be arrested.

[Oldsop]

I think we are losing it here on this blog. I submit that Americans will not fire on Americans. Liberal, Conservative, etc., it won't matter: we won't shoot each other. On the other hand there are always criminals amongst us whether in political debate or not. If someone gets shot at a political rally then it is the work of a criminal, not that of a normal citizen.
Americans have the spirit of gamesmanship as well as an independent streak. None of which should be confused with how criminals act.
Given the right circumstances, democrats and republicans will circle the wagons and fight off a common foe; with no shooting at each other.
Lets remember that we are serious game players and we all like to win, that's all.
"Gentlemen, start your engines."

[ATrumanDemocrat]

Two words- "Timothy McVeigh"

[Oldsop]

Correct: a criminal.

[BlackJAC]

Two words: "Fort Sumpter." Gops don't consider us to be "real Americans," and they themselves are the first to form militias and threaten secession from/insurrection against the lawfully elected government whenever said elections don't go their way. They only play the we're-all-­in-this-to­gether card when we have something they need, but once they get it it's back to the old ways.

[Oldsop]

The folks who were involved with Fort Sumpter are all dead. I am speaking about today.

[drvck70]

Two words, Spell Check

[Michael1234]

The President of the Union was a Republican. So much for your theory!

[NCIndependant]

One more word... "Sumter". No "p".

[xraygrrl]

Dr. George Tiller

[Oldsop]

Yes, killed by a criminal.

[Octoberluna]

Sir, Americans have a long, illustrious history of firing on each other. I am sure you heard some of this in history class. Some Americans live to find a reason to shoot a person with the gun they have so much right to own. Your right to own a gun is more precious than your child's right to life (after birth that is).

[Oldsop]

That was then ..... this is now.

[Oldsop]

Not actually true from an en masse standpoint. Americans have a long history of not wanting to get involved. Nevertheless, I am speaking about the present. I am speaking about armed uprisings: because you've never heard of such a thing. Fuggetabout the nuts who are homicidal maniacs: they will always be with us in a free society.

And nothing is more precious than my child's life. Why dream up foolish ideas like this??

[Dandylion]

I disagree and the dead Americans that fought in the war between the states who fired and were fired upon would disagree too.

[Oldsop]

... 'not talking about that time period. This is a new age.

[Oldsop]

am talking about now dude.... not hundreds of years ago.

[pjburke]

I can only imagine what the Tea Baggers, Birthers, Deathers, and the "Keep the Government Out of My Medicare" rubes would've said if a dozen Black or Hispanic men had shown up to a town hall meeting wearing weapons. Somehow I doubt they'd see it as being the same thing... and somehow I doubt that the police wouldn't have had more to say about it.

[yliza]

Bingo!

[SammyD]

the only "teabagger" i saw with a gun was the guy in NH. All of the others (including Arzona) were pro-reform so I think it shows the pro-refurm group as willing to threaten and intimidate (like children throwing at tantrum) to get their way. A "my way or the highway" stance.

[ATrumanDemocrat]

Complete nonsense. Shame on you.

[cheeriogirl]

"I think it shows the pro-refurm group as willing to threaten and intimidate (like children throwing at tantrum) to get their way. A "my way or the highway" stance"

You can't be serious!

Here is what I have seen from the Republicans when watching town hall forums;

SCREAMING by participants and at other participants, YELLING at their Senator or Representative, Complete lack of respect for other town hall guests and their opinions, Continual complaining about PRETEND "death panels" , as they fight FOR the insurance companies right to MAINTAIN their current death panels already in place, working AGAINST the health care rights of the insured. And now we hear of tales of "the death book", which again deals with end of life issues, brought to the U.S. military under the watch of GEORGE BUSH. Yet these folks are trying to say we are trying to kill off our military, by encouraging them to commit suicide.

Check your facts Sammy and try using your brain. The evidence speaks for itself on which party has decided on its "my way or the highway" stance".

A clue just for you SammyD- it's not the Dems!

.

[OdinsEye]

'You can't be serious!"

I have seen exactly the same behavior from unions and pro-reform groups. They literally made any public discussion impossible. One group was yelling and shouting down anyone who tried to ask a question critical of reform and were so obnoxious that our Rep had to ask them to either be quiet or leave.

[CanisLatrans]

Ideally, the notion of physical violence should not enter into politics at all, left or right.

However, that said, I do believe the Right, particularly the Teabaggers and Birthers and the anti-Health Care Reformists, have all repeatedly bragged about how they'd "back up their 1st Amendment rights with their 2nd Amendments rights" and how they're always ready to "reach for the bullet box if the ballot box fails" and so on.

Basically, Right-Wingers just assume that everyone who is a gun owner is automatically on their side, and that makes them free to "wag & brag" by alluding to their capacity for violence if things don't go their way.

But there's a lot of gun-owning Leftists out there who are not intimidated or impressed. If the Right-Wingers want to think that all Leftists are effete scaredycats who'll be cowed into submission just because they have guns, fine-- that's their mistake to make.

If they are ready to put down the shootin' irons and go back to discussing facts, that'd be better for all concerned. And I mean real facts, not what Glenn Beck transmitted to their tinfoil-hat receptors about birth certificates.

[xraygrrl]

After all...the Confederates were going to whup those wimpy Yankees in a week.

[logicalchoice]

And the confederates are faking O's birth certificate because they can't stand the idea of a black man as pres.

[Alethea]

Now what I wonder is this:

What would the reaction of the Righties be if the gun-toting Lefty were Black or Hispanic?

Let's just think about that for a minute.

[drvck70]

No reaction, assuming no laws are being broken

[Octoberluna]

some have been - either way it is a stupid and dangerous thing to do.

[Sean 6399]

Too funny.

Progressives cried foul when gun-toting opposition appeared at healthcare events.

But the criticism for bearing arms to such an event is totally muted when the gun nut is a supporter of a government healthcare takeover.

I guess bearing arms is acceptable only when the gun nut is also a socialist.

[gayinmt]

Perhaps he's protecting himself from the nutbags there. Like you for example.

[Veronica]

Um, what makes you think this guy is a socialist? You have absolutely no basis for saying that. And if you don't see the irony behind this guy's decision to bring a gun, and the fact that he is trying to make a point, then you are extremely gullible fodder for the far right. Or maybe you're just being purposely disingenuous.

[CenterOfMass]

CanisLatrans put it pretty well here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-shaw/reading-the-pictures-em38_b_267867.html?show_comment_id=29707355#comment_29707355

None of these people ought to be bringing guns to a town hall meeting. That's the only issue to the health care debate, and your trolling is misplaced.

[Alethea]

I disagree. He shouldn't have brought a gun to a political rally.

It was very thoughtless and totally unacceptable because it's a form of political terrorism.

Now your turn to condem people on your side. (betcha you won't though...)

[ATrumanDemocrat]

Gotta show up at a Presidential speech with a gun to "keep your second amendment right" 'cause Obama and the Libs want to take it away. Now Dubya fully supported your rights to carry so that fact that you couldn't have gotten within a mile of him with a legal gun on your hip makes perfect sense. Perfect sense in Fantasyland.