we trained a South Vietnamese Army of over a million men who melted in front of a North Vietnamese force one fourth as large in just a couple of months of confrontation. Our nation took ten years and sixty thousand deaths of American soldiers to discover what should have been obvious from the very beginning.
Iraq is identical. Both nations were and are the creation of American nation builders who have had little success at nation building other than South Korea where we were aided by most of the nations of the world to retrieve a part of Korea for our brand of government and economy.
Nations, like our own, are created inadvertently by outside forces intervening in the governments and economies of the indigenous peoples. We are creating democracy in Iraq and the force that chases us from the scene will likely become the nation that we create!
Mission accomplished!
Reading The Pictures: The Mighty U.S. Trained And Supported Iraqi Army
Buzz this article up.
If the U.S. general public was tuning in at all to the current goings-on in Iraq, this image alone could blow a major hole in the administration's rationale for being there.
After $22 billion spent training the Iraqi army, how does Team Petraeus justify the sight of Iraqi Security forces -- within days of launching an all-out attack on the Mahdi -- turning over their weapons to officials of Muqtada al-Sadr in exchange for Korans and olive branches?
And by the way, even if few Americans ever see the picture of these forty soldiers giving it up, you can bet (if you notice the guy taking video) that the Iraqi public is getting an eye full.
After years of effort, Iraqi army still can't 'stand up' (Star-Telegram/AP)
Cleric Suspends Battle in Basra by Shiite Militia (NYT)
The BAGnewsNotes Iraq Civil War posts
(image: Wathiq Khuzaie/Getty Images. Sadr City. March 30, 2008. nytimes.com)
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In Vietnam, the standard joke was - if you wanted to buy a rifle, you should buy one that had been issued to the South Vietnamese army - because it had never been fired and only dropped once.
Seriously building an army is hard work and you just don't advertise for soldiers in the local Pennysaver - Bremer and Bush screwed up when they disbanded the Iraqi army - of course, now W doesn't remember going along with that decision - and here I thought he was the decider.
The so-called Iraqi army will suffer the same fate as the South Vietnamese when they are put to the test - especially without American troops and firepower. But what the heck, the surge is working - I know because Bush/Cheney/ McCain all say so and they wouldn't lie to us, now would they?
In South Korea we were fighting the North Koreans. After the first six months, most of the fighting was in North Korea against the Chinese, not the Koreans (we had already killed most of the North Korean soldiers).
In South Vietnam we were fighting both the South and North Vietnamese. Many of the South Vietnamese who were our friends during the day, were trying to kill our troops at night.
....let's be perfectly honest....we were then, amd are now, OCCUPIERS.....we have invaded their country and they don't like it...PERIOD!!! think about it....how would you like an occupying force in this country, killing us, dropping weapons all over our country (slowly destroying it and a lot of its infrastructure), kicking in doors all night and day long and then wondering why we hate them!....DUH.....and what would be the comparable loss of lives - military and civilian - based on population....(iraq 25 mill...usa 300 mil)??? i think it would be in the 2500 per day range....think about that....almost a 9/11 happening every day in our country...how long would YOU put up with that....not very long for me either.....viet-nam or iraq....same-same....
Yes, and we have 300,000 Sunni Militia on our P/R. U.S. soldiers are going around and delivering the weekly payoff checks! Thats the real surge! A Payoff on funding of another milltia.
10,9,8,6..... count down to watching that bribery bite us in the ASS.
Regards
At $10 per day, those 300,000 militia are only costing us $90 million per month, far less that the $12 billion we are spending every month to stay involved in their civil war.
Seems to me it would be far, far cheaper just to pay both sides to stop fighting, than it has so far been to try to force them to stop fighting by using our own troops and mercenaries. The mercenaries are getting paid way in excess of what we are paying the militia. Many of the militia are happy to try to support their families on the $300 per month we are paying them, versus the $10,000+ per month we pay each of the mercenaries.
It would be much more humane, and far cheaper, to pull all of our troops and mercenaries out, and to keep paying both sides in the civil war not to fight each other. Over time, they could rebuild their infrastructure, including the oil industry, and maybe they would get used to not fighting each other. I would rather see us paying the Iraqis to not kill each other (and us) than having them continue to fight each other over who can get something from the reduced oil exports.
Who was it that helped to train and supply the Tali-band and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan when they were fighting against the Russians and who was it that provided weapons to the Iran-Contra insurgency? To date many of those weapons are being used today against our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. The McCain/Bush/Cheney philosophy on foreign policy is clearly rooted in the failed strategies of neo-con bravado and cowboy diplomacy.
Sen. McCain is surprised to learn of the chaos that has erupted in Iraq, yet he refuses consider other options. America deserves better in its next President.
Through incompetence, historical ignorance, greed and guile, the U.S. jumped into lraq and discovered it had landed in a "honey pot". Though the reasons were bogus, the invasion and subsequent occupation soon created the enemy missing from the original picture: armed terrorists of various allegiances. Involuntary importation of ideologies never works. Ergo, American democracy delivered at gunpoint has been a phenomenal failure. But struggling around in the honey pot and its resultant stink has left a U.S. military hopelessly floundering in its own self-created misery. Anyone who believes that American military presence is going to heal centuries old wounds, establish a successful western style democracy and provide the infrastructure for us to walk away with Iraq's oil reserves should confine themselves to turning out science-fantasy books for the gullible and the intellectually challenged.
"We will embroil them, confuse them, and keep them in the quagmire." -- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf (a.k.a., Baghdad Bob)
Sometimes, he who laughs last really does laugh best.
PRICELESS!!!!!!
No-one in the picture is being killed, tortured or oppressed. They're one better than the occupiers.
The sooner the iraqi Army can stand on it's own, the sooner we can quit paying foreign interest!
More havoc=more debt=McCain!
This picture needs a much better decsription of what it purports to show.
Some guy in uniform carrying a machine gun is standing around some other guys.
Please explain more about what you think is happening and why. I cannot tell from the picture.
I don't know how anyone can continue to think we are a free republic. An ill-informed electorate, a press that has abdicated its crucial responsibility to the country, government secrecy, surveillance, torture, and on and on. There's no excuse for this photograph (if it is what the writer of this post says it is) not being plastered across every television set and newspaper around the country.
"And by the way, even if few Americans ever see the picture of these forty soldiers giving it up, you can bet (if you notice the guy taking video) that the Iraqi public is getting an eye full. "
Actually Mike I have to disagree . Most Americans have seen through this type of media propaganda and the Iraqis in Basra are there and can see first hand , both sides of the story.
If you look at all the captions and pictures taken in Basra for Getty Images over the past seven days , you will see the picture in "context ". Tell me what you see.
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=1&language=en-US&family=editorial&ebd=2008-03-24&p=Basra&src=standard#
Do you see a fair and balanced photo essay of the war in Basra or do you see Madhi sympathizers embedded in the so called Mahdi army at the beheast of Getty Images? You can't possibly look at all these images and tell me they are unbiased . The AP and Reuters are both showing similar photos on websites and front pages around the world .
You , my friend , have been manipulated by the MSM and judging by the pictures on this website over the last few days Arianna has been too. And if you are not astute enough to see that only one side is being reported then you probably shouldn't be trying to influence how others think.
That's how I see it .
Iraqi Security forces=$ well spent. We would of only blown the money on roads, schools and heath care.
The last time I checked, we had roads, schools and healthcare.
You might have healthy care. A lot of us don't.
Richard Cohen, Washington Post columnist, recently wrote that he believes the Bush "surge" is a success. The mainstream media were also duped into believing the Iraqi elections several years ago were signs of easing tensions and the establishment of a stable government there. Pictures of Iraqis holding up their purple fingers after voting in 2005 were great propaganda for public relations but those elections have not brought the reconciliation that was promised after that election took place.
Over the last 4 days many in the "mighty" U.S. military-trained Iraqi Army quickly threw down their weapons after confronting their Shiite Mahdi Army brethren when they were sent to Basra by al-Maliki to take control of that city and throw out Muqtada al Sadr's forces.
Like the U.S. forces who have been relegated to police duty, rounding up gangs and criminal elements over the last 5 years, the Iraqi Army's reluctance to fight against their own people simply underscores the failed Bush war policies which he intends to leave for the next occupant of the White House.
Conspicuously absent from the Bush rhetoric over the last 4 days of fighting in Basra is the ubiquitous screeching over al Qaeda In Iraq and the Sunni insurgents who are also giving the finger (not purple) to Bush and his occupation of their country.
For Bush, there are so many people to kill and maim and so little time left for him to do it before leaving office. That"s Bush"s legacy.
Hey - the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Hey - blood is thicker than water.
Hey - they gots to live there and make a living.
Hey - tribal is as tribal does.
"Hey - Bush, whatya know..."
"Just got back from the Sadr Show!"
"Whatdya see and whatdya get?"
"Lots of bullets and lots of upset
civilians in that 'collateral damage mode'"
"Hey, think that Freedom and Liberty agenda's been sold
to the masses of casualties from that 'friendly fire'?"
"Nope. Just a bunch of civilian ire at the 'Occupiers' of their country, so far.."
"Well, then, dude - get ready - it's YOUR hour
For the Feathers, the Rail and a big ol' hot pot of tar"
I think you're being too negative.
Clearly this is a sign of progress.
The Iraqi military is now so strong and confident, they feel the need to create and arm their enemies just like America.
They must justify military control over this new "democracy" because otherwise they will be judged by their failing civilian institutions... oh, sorry. I was trying to stay positive.
I'm sure this is just a hiccup before the pro-American, pro-Israel silent majority of Iraqis seizes the reigns of power.
So the guy is kissing the Quaran? What is a problem. After all we have a congresman who used Quaran to swear in...
Sorry Con (can I call you Con?), your Rush Degree is showing and misses the point. After Billions of Dollars and 4,008 lost Americans, the mighty Iraqi army has shown that blood is indeed thicker than oil . . .
Sorry Proud (can I call you Proud?), you're ignorance is showing. The Congressman you are referring to, Keith Ellison of Illinois, was sworn in in exactly the same fashion as the rest of the new Congress elected in 2006. He did use a Koran (previously owned by President Thomas Jefferson) in a photo opportunity.
Clearly, you are trying to spread misinformation in an attempt to ignore Article VI of the Constitution, which states "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States". You probably think that there is something wrong with a Muslim holding federally elected office, or you wouldn't even have made this comment. So which other parts of the Constitution do you think should be ignored?
This pic doesn't show anything. Video would be more appropriate. Assuming the description is accurate, it only underscores the stupid mentality of the Bush admin., like a boyscout trying to help an old lady across the street only to find her beating him to death along the way and screaming she doesn't want across the street. Face it - the Iraqis want their own identity, not to be Iraqi-americans. Toppling Saddam was NOT in US interests and remaining in Iraq under non-negotiable terms with Iran is simply unrealistic. The Bush admin simply can't admit they f*cked up 5 years ago and persistent denial has become their foreign policy strategy.
ala, Dead Iraqi policy sketch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTSAFcLXqYY&feature=related
On the list of powerful things, guns are not at the top.
My idea on how this war -- US -- could have been stopped before we ever got started was if the Iraqis had set up GUNLESS marches with posters of their children and signs that said "You are not the boss of me." Take pictures of that, beam that around the world, and then let the world see it for what it is when George Bush attacks soverign people and defenseless children in their home.
Bush's "perception management" has turned things inside out, where we kill the people to free the people, where we the people here are willing to support candidates and policies that kill them the people there. It's tragic. The world was watching the Iraqis. Saddam had offered to debate George Bush. The whole thing could have been laid out for all sides to hear. We still don't know the people we're killing. And when things go so terribly badly, who even thinks of turning to the Constitution and the principles of reason among people everywhere to right this busted ship? All we have to do is pledge allegiance and salute the cross and we're still us, right? God blesses us and not others, right? It's 3 a.m., Higher Father on the line...
After $22 billion spent training the Iraqi army, how does Team Petraeus justify the sight of Iraqi Security forces?
Beacuse the government can't do anything right.
And, becuase a mercenary, that is paid, US Military does not want to loose their funding? And, because with two year rotations in a job, which is the senior military pogram, no one is interested in achieving masurable goals, just keeping thier nose clean, aka "It was all right on my watch"
Systemically Corrupt & Systemically Incompetant?
Puppet government, puppet army.
You do have to admit that at least he's 'standing up' as he surrenders his weapons. Maybe that's all they were told they had to do.....stand up.
The argument for staying the course is a strange one : Now that we are there........ .
If only people would believe and respect that in marriage. Surely, there must
be a better explanation for not quitting a wrong war !
They only know to fight for their religious beliefs, and they have been doing it for centuries. We have thought we could train them to defend a democratic form of government, and they don't have the discipline or conviction to do that- they have never had a democratic form of government, they don't know the benefits of such government, thus find no reason to give up their lives for the sake of the invaders and their corporate leeches to maintain such a government that only looks weak in their eyes. Whose bright idea was this invasion anyway?
We can train our own combat troops in six months and send them off to war in a foreign land where they perform spectacularly. But for five years we haven't been able to train any substantial number of troops in their own country. And many of the ones we do train wind up taking off their uniforms, keeping their weapons and turning them on our troops. We need to get the hell out of there now!
"We can train our own combat troops in six months and send them off to war in a foreign land where they perform spectacularly. " - true enough but the US Army has professional NCOs in place and a funtioning command structure - we train individual soldiers to plug into existing combat formations where they are surrounded by trained and experienced soldiers and non-commissioned officers. Not to mention the supply channels and all the other behind the scenes necessary logistics that are essential to any organization.
We haven't accomplished anything in Iraq with the army because we have had idiots and morons at the helm - and no career officer is going to waste his time doing something when no one in the chain of command is interested in it. When Germany was reunited, the West German government sent thousands of experts into the East to help with reunification - when we invaded Iraq, we sent nine individuals who were all vetted for their loyalty to Bush not ability. It has been a bad plan - very badly executed by unqualified drones with no follow through.
During the Korean War, the South Korean army was a mess in 1950 but they became a real army - it took a lot of time, hard work and the commitment to make it happen. The Bush administration has always wanted to make war on the cheap - I guess you can call them the ADD warriors. Unfortunately, the rest of us wind up
Well said.....but then again, Americans have a sense of nationhood of 230 years duration. Iraqis can trace their nationhood back to the end of the first World War-by the pen of the colonial powers that dominated the region, France and England. Then the Brits came back in '29 and stayed 30 years!
Just think what those pictures of McCain with 'Pastor' John Hagee look like to any educated Iraqi! Our leaders are idiots.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want...... The USA is certainly getting a lot of experience since we aren't getting the oil!
Do you even know where we get our oil? I didn't think so.
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Posted March 31, 2008 | 04:49 AM (EST)