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Michael Walzer

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The State of Righteousness: Liberal Zionists Speak Out

Posted: 04/24/2012 7:05 am

The following column is part of a series. For more, go to Liberal Zionists Speak Out.

I have been a Zionist ever since the year of my bar mitzvah, 1948, when I sought out every possible piece of news (that was available in Johnstown, Pa.) about Israel's war of independence and covered my school notebooks with hand-drawn maps of the new state and its battlefields. But I never went to live in Israel. In 1957, right after we were married, my wife and I spent a summer there, thinking about aliyah, but we came back to the States for graduate school and soon had children and a life here in the U.S. We chose instead what Shlomo Avineri calls hatzi aliyah -- literally, "half-immigration" -- so that now, nearing the end of our lives, we have spent years in Israel, over some 40 visits and several sabbaticals, and we probably have more friends there than here. So what is this half-way Zionism?

It is first of all the emotion-laden belief of someone who grew up during World War Two that the Jews need a state, and that this need is so critical and so urgent that it overrides whatever injustices statehood has brought. We still have to oppose the injustices with all the resources we can muster, but we can't give up the State. So I participate vicariously in Israeli politics by supporting my social-democratic and peacenik friends. I want the state to be as good as it can be, but above all I want it to be.

My Zionism is also a universal statism. I think that everybody who needs a state should have one, not only the Jews but also the Armenians, the Kurds, the Tibetans, the South Sudanese -- and the Palestinians. The modern state is the only effective agency for physical protection, economic management and welfare provision. What the most oppressed and impoverished people in the world today most need is a state of their own, a decent state acting on their behalf. I feel some hostility, therefore, toward people who want to "transcend" the state -- and I am especially hostile toward those who insist that the transcendence has to begin with the Jews.

My Zionism is a secular nationalism. The Jewish people have a twofold character: We are a nation -- Am Yisrael, the people Israel -- and we are what Americans call a "community of faith." This is not a common combination; it is shaped by the peculiar history of the Jews. But statehood requires separation: the Jewish state should be an expression of the people, not of the faith (which many of our people don't share, at least not in its orthodox form). We know from our history that the world can get very nasty when religious faith and political power are joined. Zionism should empower citizens; it should deny power to all those who claim it on religious grounds; it should not empower zealots. State schools in Israel, it seems to me, can legitimately promote Jewishness -- in the same way that state schools in Norway promote Norwegianess -- but they can't promote Judaism. And of course minority groups, in Israel as in Norway, must have every opportunity to associate for the promotion of their own culture.

My hatzi aliyah obviously doesn't commit me to "the negation of the exile." Jewish history is too complicated to support the idea that it can have only one continuation in one place. There are many ways of being Jewish, and many places, given emancipation and democratic citizenship, where Jewish life can flourish. But we will flourish more securely, with greater self-respect, and with greater cultural depth, if we are connected not only to our diasporic states but also to a Jewish state. The Zionist project is central to Jewish life because it has led to the revival of the Hebrew language and the creation of a modern Hebrew culture -- novels, poems, plays and films of remarkable power -- and because it makes possible the enactment of what many of us have always imagined to be Jewish values: justice, above all.

This is a test that we shouldn't want to avoid: can this people, our people, stateless for almost 2,000 years, create a state that men and women around the world will look at and say, as in Deuteronomy 4:8, "And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous"?

Needless to say, we are not there yet, not even close. High ambition requires a long life, and Israel is a very young state.

Michael Walzer is a political philosopher and public intellectual. A professor emeritus at the Institute for Advanced Study (IAS) in Princeton, New Jersey, he is co-editor of Dissent, an intellectual magazine that he has been affiliated with since his years as an undergraduate at Brandeis University. He has written books and essays on a wide range of topics, including just and unjust wars, nationalism, ethnicity, economic justice, social criticism, radicalism, tolerance and political obligation, and is a contributing editor to the New Republic. To date, he has written 27 books and published more than 300 articles, essays and book reviews in Dissent, the New Republic, the New York Review of Books, the New Yorker, the New York Times, Harpers, and many philosophical and political science journals. His most recent book is "In God's Shadow: Politics in the Hebrew Bible" (Yale University Press).

 
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
upset99
“Love is the absence of judgment.” Dalai Lama
08:12 AM on 04/27/2012
This is a very complicated issue because it involves many different issues which includes internal politics. The Palestinian Refugee is the oldest of modern day. Arab Culture is very tribal. This is very much about Islam. The Proof is that the Muslim Palestinians reject the Christian ones. The other Arab Counties wont help their Muslim cousins/brothers and when they have tried, such as Lebanon and Jordan, it has destabilized them with Civil War. This conflict has had a very bad byproduct; international terrorism of which we (the rest of the world including the USA) are the victim. Indeed, it started out as state sponsored but then it took on an autonomous life of its own. Middle Eastern Countries and Islam has been teaching Anti-semtism WE have religious zealots on both sides now.

Israel has absorbed millions from post WW2 Europe, post Soviet Collapse and the hundreds of thousands of Jews ejected from other Middle Eastern Jews. Why didn't we hear the outrage of these ejected Middle Eastern Jews? These Jews were living in these Countries for generations and then they became Stateless?

And each Palestinian administration starting with Yassir Arafat has been very corrupt. So will the "new Government" be also corrupt?

Something things to think about?
04:30 PM on 04/26/2012
Have to say I'm a bit sad.
I've read the article - agreed with some of it, disagreed with some, then went on to the comments.

Every now and then I find such a pile of comments, full of hate blame and ignorance. And everybody seem to know everything, have such a strong opinions on things which really - they obviously never spend too much thought and research on. The kind of opinions which ignore much of reality and fact, and to me seems more like a religious world view than a rational one.

I'm not expecting you to know anything about the regional details, but what I do expect is that you'll ask yourself a simple question - WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER SIDE. That, of course, assuming you're not in it for just hating us, which is a phenomenon that sadly exist.
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Elizabeth Everett
People's Democracy Not Bankers' Oligarchy
09:10 AM on 04/25/2012
I am happy that Mr. Walter recognizes that Palestinians should have sovereignty over a state of their own without having to worry about Jewish settlers invading and displacing them. If we could get there that would be a huge step in the right direction. But, even if we could get this far, there would still be some serious unfinished business if we follow his recommendations. He says all people designated as “oppressed” should have a state for their own racial or ethnic group. So we would divide the world’s population into two groups: 1. those who are considered oppressed and therefore have a right to a state which reflects the culture and promotes the welfare of their racial group above all others. 2. Those that are not considered oppressed and who are therefore have to have their countries’ transformed into multicultural states with different racial groups sharing or perhaps competing with each other for resources. One group says to the other one,” What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is also partly mine.” This double-standard would surely result in a lot of resentment.
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erehwon2
10:43 AM on 04/25/2012
"I am happy that Mr. Walter recognizes that Palestinians should have sovereignty over a state of their own without having to worry about Jewish settlers invading and displacing them....One group says to the other one,” What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is also partly mine.” This double-standard would surely result in a lot of resentment."

Just playing devil's advocate here, but the first part of your statement ironically contradicts the last part.

Israel is a pluralistic society which is about 25% Arab/Druze/other non-Jewish citizens. While I'm not sure why Jews would want to live in a Palestinian state, why is it considered by most in the international community perfectly okay for the Palestinians to want a state free of any Jews while it's not okay for Israel, already with a significant number of Arab citizens, not to want to absorb millions of Palestinians who demand a full "right of return?"
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NTT
Fighting rants with facts
11:58 AM on 04/26/2012
Your "What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is also partly mine” is PRECISELY exemplified (and even amplified) by the Arab stance: "let us have OUR OWN state AND let us have the majority in YOUR state, too".

The insistence on the "right" to "return" millions of "co-nationals" NOT to the "Palestinian state", but to ANOTHER state is ridiculous. It proves only one thing: the absence of a true "Palestinian" national sentiment & aspiration (other than the aspiration to destroy the Jewish State). Israel made peace with Egypt -- but it did NOT demand that the Jews who fled & were exiled from Egypt (and their descendants) be allowed to "return" to Egypt. That thought never occurred to the Israeli negotiators. It would never occur to any REAL people, endowed with national identity and aspirations.
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Carl Caroli
I just don't understand people
08:37 AM on 04/25/2012
Clinging to the past does not help the future. Peace and human rights should supersede all territorial claims. We can not call ourselves civilized if we fight over who was were first, or who thinks they have some theological claim to some land.
11:20 PM on 04/25/2012
Should could would. The difference between ideals and reality:
1) Everybody should remember that there are (at least) two sides to this conflict, and they both should negotiate and come to a middle ground, whatever nature the arguments have.
This is the real world where religion is still a big part of people lives (way more for the palestinians I might add) and you wont solve anything by patronizing and say that these things are meaningless. (and I'm saying this even though I'm an atheist and think exactly like you do)
2) There are legitimate security concerns. The palestinians have not yet demonstrated governance over their own people and many are still in a war state with Israel. Most of those do not intend to stop this the day some paper gets signed, by their own words (and worse - they are even funded by outsiders to do so)
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NTT
Fighting rants with facts
12:04 PM on 04/26/2012
Sure. When at least half of the other states (some of which have existed for many centuries) give up their "territorial claims" and erase their borders, I'll ask Israel (which in its modern incarnation has existed for 64 years) to do exactly the same. But as long as ALL OTHER countries (the vast majority of which have much less to fear than Israel) choose to gelously guard their territory and defend their borders, so should Israel.
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JewishPhysician
fraternity, trust, discourse
08:14 AM on 04/25/2012
Palestinians living in the Eretz Yisrael might be the best thing that jews can allow considering that they might deter a horrible nuclear strike by the axis of evil living in the middle east with their intent to develop nuclear bombs and attack a soverign state that has no intent to invade their borders or assimylate their people.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Json
Cynical dreamer, sarcastic idealist...
11:43 AM on 04/25/2012
Have you seen the size of Israel and the location of the Gaza/West bank? If the millions of Palestinians there aren't enough of a disincentive, having some of them in Israel won't make a difference; especially since Israel's population is already ~ 15-20% Muslim.
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littlemonster
Grrrrrrrrr
06:59 AM on 04/25/2012
regardless of mr walzer's views, there is another group of people who yearn for a nation just as badly as he does, yet they have no name for their movement, own no foreign governments, receive precious little sympathy in the international arena and are subject to an occupation. mr walzer's zionism need not count on the prevention of a palestinian state as a condition for its own expression. zionists simply cannot gloss over apartheid, illegal occupation and violence that has become, sadly, one leg of their table. on the issue of israel, in fact, i still cannot see how anyone can love their country while condoning the oppression of another by its government. more than 60% of israelis, in fact, agree that there must be a palestinian state. i say, let's get on with that unfinished business and build an israel that lives up to mr walzer's lofty ideals, alongside a true secular arab democracy.
12:00 AM on 04/26/2012
Personally I think we're "stuck" with them.

The history is long, but as of today - the thing is that the people you call "the palestinian nation" are not as united as you think, and certainly many cant seem to agree yet on real peace with the state of Israel, for a myriad of reasons (political, religious and outside influence).

There's an economic dependence of the palestinians in Israel and we have a security dependence on them - Any unilateral move could make things actually worse (certainly for us, and also for them), and we've even seen that happening in Gaza after the withdrawal in 2005, when the infamous blockade started to mitigate the security problems that surfaced (i.e. thousands of rockets and mortars fired into Israel among other things).

Also note that as of 2010 71% of israelies support the two state solution as opposed to 57% of the palestinians, which for me demonstrates who really wants the separation more.

Somehow through world politics and some regional forces the situation seem to be, as awkward as it may sound, the most "stable" situation for now.
So yes - I can be proud of my country both because of the tremendous achievements and also because I don't see there's a real move it can do to actually solve the situation by itself.

My hope is that once our conflict will decline in importance to OTHERS, both sides could step down from their high horses and make real, lasting peace.
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warmonkey
11:15 AM on 04/26/2012
"My hope is that once our conflict will decline in importance to OTHERS, both sides could step down from their high horses and make real, lasting peace."
This is not happening- "your conflict" has gone on way too long, and it is effecting the rest of the World- especially including your best friend - the USA.
,[AKA your only friend?}
"Somehow through world politics and some regional forces the situation seem to be, as awkward as it may sound, the most "stable" situation for now."

Awkward indeed- and I am sad to hear that so many Israelis believe that this is the best that they can do.......
A famous Jew once said ,"26What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you understand it?” 27He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ ”
28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do that, and you will live.”.

Are you listening?
11:19 AM on 04/26/2012
I like how you think, littlemonster. Fanned and Faved.
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Robert Frank
My last name is FRANK so thats what I am..
06:43 AM on 04/25/2012
Imagine how much more peaceful the world would be if we didn't support Israel unconditionally for so many years with money and weapons..they would have settled for peace a long time ago because they would have had no choice being on their own but to act like realistic grown-ups
04:21 PM on 04/26/2012
Again that fallacy, where we are at fault, because our decisions and actions are the sole reason for our destiny.

Lets try to live for a second in your imaginary world, where the US gains nothing from supporting us and we're really just totally dependant on you. Really just a small possible scenerio:

* Say we didnt have your weapons, and we wouldnt get some elsewhere (we had french weapons before the US once mind you, and we developed stuff on our own) we would be literally wiped out. Not "forced to make peace", its not the way things seem work with our neighbours. I'm talking at least hundreds of thousands dead (you should recall that its opposed to less than 100,000 in total for both throughout all our wars), and a real good question of what happens to the rest.

* Then say there was no Israel. The Arab regimes and some others wouldn't be able to point their finger at us, as they did all these years (to this day, though it seem that excuse has finally eroded), and you'll have much "unrest". That means civil wars like lebanon had and like syria has now.

* What about oil? Sad to say but the aweful arab regimes in the area give some stability and keeps the internal arab and islamic conflicts contained, which in turn keep the oil price relatively low. This prevents other conflicts in the world as well.

So yeah, I can imagine this "peace" pretty
06:31 AM on 04/25/2012
Can I just point out something obvious? The reason why Jews are so (I guess this is the proper word) "disliked" is because they insist on being, as you said, "a nation" and "a community of faith". That combination is predictably discomforting to many others. As an American of myriad European ancestry, I see myself as nothing but an American. My loyalties, politically speaking, stand with my country and my country alone. As a Catholic, my religion does not pressure me to align myself with Catholics over any other group. It is a personal belief system and nothing more. Judaism encompasses a personal belief system, but it also takes on a political element uncommon among other religions. It insists that its members participate in what is good for Jews before they participate in what is good for other religions. Some call this "tribalism". An American Jew who chooses to aid a non-Jewish American before a Jewish foreigner has failed his religion (which is also his "people"). No one feels comfortable with this kind of behavior because it doesn't seem to lead to trustworthiness or loyalty. Couple that with the exclusionary nature of Judaism (discourages conversion, evangelism, intermarriage, etc.) and you have a recipe for a religion that is unpopular with anyone who wasn't born into it.
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dim
one in a can
07:38 AM on 04/25/2012
Let see how you feel if Italy ever insists on revoking the concordat and dissolving the Vatican.
08:37 AM on 04/25/2012
I have no idea what you are talking about, so if it happens, I will probably neither know nor care.
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Elizabeth Everett
People's Democracy Not Bankers' Oligarchy
09:33 AM on 04/25/2012
I agree with the gist of what you are saying but we have to be careful here. Mr. Walter, the writer, is a Jew who wants Jews to act more justly but he doesn’t want to assimilate into the country he is living in. Having lived through World War II, those feelings are very understandable. Never the less, there are plenty of Jews who do assimilate. What is different is that it is socially acceptable for Jews, and some other peoples, to create institutions exclusively for their group, and this is not acceptable for other groups. For example, it was a scandal when Anglo-Americans built country clubs that only admitted Anglo-Americans but when Jews do similar things it is no big deal.
11:03 AM on 04/25/2012
What you say is almost 100% false. Name me one Jewish Community Center, restaurant, fraternity, youth group that will not allow non-Jewish members. If you are talking about synagogues in the U.S., almost all will welcome non-Jews who wish to to respectfully participate or observe save for the most religious (although they also may be welcoming as long as you respect their traditions I just don't have the experience to tell you that). Like any religious place of worship or religious groups they have the right to have conditions for actual membership (including membership fees and ones religion) and if someone is disruptive or disrespectful they can be asked to leave ( it is their right to do so). But when you say "institutions" you use the comparison of country clubs. The closest comparison would be a Jewish Community Center. I challenge you to walk into the closest center to you and see for yourself, people from all religions and races, not only Jews will be working out at the gym there and participating in events and workshops.
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erehwon2
11:42 AM on 04/25/2012
"For example, it was a scandal when Anglo-Americans built country clubs that only admitted Anglo-Americans but when Jews do similar things it is no big deal."

There are Jews-only country clubs? Where?

In my community we have country clubs which are MOSTLY Jewish, but they certainly do accept and have non-Jewish members. The local Jewish Community Center has loads of non-Jewish members who like the facilities and location. There's a huge difference between facilities/institutions built by the community predominantly for that community and those which are made exclusively so.
lastpost
see biography
05:17 AM on 04/25/2012
"The State of Righteousness"
A case of good Israeli bad Palestinian? Or good Palestinian bad Israeli. Not really! Good human good, bad human bad.

"the Jews need a state"
Some seem to have created one and dropped themselves and others right in it.

"it overrides whatever injustices"
The preface for Adolf's book Meinem Wahnsinn?

"I want the state to be as good as it can be"
Then it must be inclusive not exclusive.

"The modern state is the only effective agency for physical protection, economic management and welfare provision."
Not a physical state, a mental one.

"I feel some hostility, therefore, toward people who want to "transcend" the state"
If god had meant us to fly, he'd have given us the brains to achieve that.

"The Jewish people have a twofold character:"
That's just one of an indeterminate number of unique opinions held by us individuals.

"Zionism should empower citizens"
Is that an infinitely renewable source of sustainable energy?

"it should not empower zealots"
Henceforth identified by indelible pen.

"There are many ways of being Jewish"
But only one truth. Pity no human would know it if they fell over it.

"justice, above all."
Whatever passes for each faith’s Amen, to that.

"And what nation is there so great, that"
building on the bones of the dispossessed shall render it immortal?

"High ambition requires a long life"
and an ideology with answers on how to achieve it.Now available…
06:44 AM on 04/25/2012
Wow that was a wonderfully clever retort. Bravo!
11:03 PM on 04/25/2012
So much nonsense. Really.
I could negate each one of your points one by one easily but I dont want to be tedious, so I'll just choose a few at random:

"I want the state to be as good as it can be"
Then it must be inclusive not exclusive.
* rubbish. take a look at every nation state in the world. the US of A is an exception, not the rule, and even countries of that sort are not really much more inclusive than Israel.

"The modern state is the only effective agency for physical protection, economic management and welfare provision."
Not a physical state, a mental one.
* I call shananigans again - besides the pure physical protection (army, police) there's other types of safety nets like social security and medicare. So there really is a physical protection.

"Zionism should empower citizens"
Is that an infinitely renewable source of sustainable energy?
* if that meant to be some kind of reductio ad absurdum, you sir have failed to make a point. (and miserabley at that I might add)

There are many ways of being Jewish"
But only one truth. Pity no human would know it if they fell over it.
* There's an old proverb in hebrew which roughtly translates to "the disqualifier disqualifies his own disqualities" ("ha-posel bemumo posel" if u'r interested). Essentially it means people project and see their own faults in others. I strongly suggest you'll ponder that for a while specifically concerning this remark
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smoknjoe
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
04:48 AM on 04/25/2012
It's sad to see so many who are against Israel for existing. Most cultures have a piece of land to call their own. Even the Palestinians have land (just not statehood yet). Yet so many, like Ahmadinejad would love to see Israel cease to exist. That includes people in the United States of all places. The growth of intolerance in the world is getting dangerous. Antisemitism, racial unrest, religious militarism, and the list goes on. We are at a crossroads. What will we do?
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warmonkey
07:36 AM on 04/25/2012
End the Occupation....
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
08:18 AM on 04/25/2012
When the 1967 war ended, the Arab/muslim countries chose to insist that under no cisrcumstances would they permit any negotiations for peace and return of any areas they abandoned in their flight away from Israeli soldiers.

As it became obvious that Arabs will not militarily defeat Israel, it became obvious to Arabs that Israel must return the lands the Arabs abandoned and that Israel must also be placed in permanent jeopardy so long as it exists. Peace for Israel must only be the peace of the grave.

If you believe that Israel can afford to trust its neighbors to agree to a peace and then keep it, you are a fool. Arab culture is far too murderous for anyone to trust it. I challenge any of you to prove me wrong.
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StevieTheK
On n'oublie rien, rien du tout
07:41 AM on 04/28/2012
Hostilities existed well before the "occupation" - it's a complete smokescreen. History did not begin in 1967.
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unitron
Reverse Chron Order never stays checked
09:29 AM on 04/25/2012
"It's sad to see so many who are against Israel for existing."

More like for choosing that particular chunk of real estate upon which to do so.

In a novel written several years ago, one of the characters says "The Jews need a place where it's safe for a Jew to be a Jew".

You don't have to be in disagreement with that sentiment to think that the spot they chose doesn't lend itself very well to that goal.

"Most cultures have a piece of land to call their own."

And then the Europeans show up...

"Even the Palestinians have land..."

But they used to have a lot more...
03:02 PM on 04/27/2012
the state of Israel is fourth in the world in life expectancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy) that sounds very safe to me....
the palesteniens never had land, although they were offerd to recive land many tims, and refused, again, and again, and again;
1937- the arabs refused to recive 83% of mandatoric palestine.
1947- the arabs refused to recive 50% of the land.
1948- the arabs were left in controle of 23% of the land, and were not allowed, by other arab states, to create a palestenien state.
2000- the palesteniens were offerd 95% percent of the west bank and gaza- and refused
2008- the palesteniens were offerd 100% of the west bank and gaza, joint controle over the old city of jerusalem, and the return of 150,000 refugees in to the state of israel... the palesteniens never reacted to this offer....
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07:30 AM on 04/28/2012
Arabs have 99.9% of the ME - how much land do they need
03:52 AM on 04/25/2012
This article is mostly just one big rationalization.
06:00 AM on 04/25/2012
f & f 300 Fans . . . well said
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
08:19 AM on 04/25/2012
What is being rationalized?
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01:29 AM on 04/25/2012
too bad your zionism is intertwined with the zionism of oppression and apartheid. israel is a very young state and zionism has been in crisis since its inception. maybe drafting a constitution would help.
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
08:19 AM on 04/25/2012
How silly you are.
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10:09 AM on 04/25/2012
good substantive response
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michael429
01:17 AM on 04/25/2012
"Liberal Zionism"? an oxymoron. Fact is that what the writer describes is another rationalization of "tribalism". It is against the principals that America is based upon. This is 2012. There is no reason that people should be denied rights because of geography or capricious land claims based on strange books that were written thousands of years ago. We are either all in this together, or we are done. I am no Idealist. We are done.
06:01 AM on 04/25/2012
wonderful michael . . f & f
BahtHarim
בת ההרים
10:53 AM on 04/26/2012
You stated in an earlier post, "Iran hasn't threatened Israel".

Really? Then what is this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgpP7cLLJqk&feature=related
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
08:20 AM on 04/25/2012
What are you done of or for?
12:04 AM on 04/25/2012
Would that Israel have a few hundred years to become an old state. I fear that Obama will have your back from a bunker deep beneath the White House when the Iranian nuclear missiles come over the horizon. Wake up Israel, take destiny into your own hands. You will NEVER be able to depend on others to secure your existence as a Nation State, least of all the current Obama administration.
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Robert Frank
My last name is FRANK so thats what I am..
06:44 AM on 04/25/2012
oh brother...more nonsense
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webbandit
USAF Veteran
07:50 AM on 04/25/2012
If your boy Romney gets elected you volunteer your life and face the enemy in the wars he's itching to start, hero.
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Tony Pepperoni
Where did all the good Republicans go?
11:40 PM on 04/24/2012
As a person with a widely mixed heritage and as an atheist I find it very difficult to understand the need to create a homeland for a people, culture or religion, especially if it at the expense of another group of people. We all have a long long history as human beings. Jews are not special in that regard and if they want to preserve their culture they are more than welcome to teach it to their children and live freely among the rest of the humans in a country that respects that right. Home should be where we chose to make it and it should never impose on anyone else that may already be there again. We have traveled down that road far too many times and although we cannot turn back the clock it is time we recognize that this planet is far too small to give anyone inherent rights based on their family tree.
02:06 AM on 04/25/2012
Fine. Then start with the LARGER situations first by dissolving large nation-states that do not celebrate "a long long history as human beings." Israel is a vanishingly tiny spot on Earth. Focus on the BIG issues first, if you truly believe that. Maybe start with Russian and China, both of which feel that, as nation-states, they have a right to rule over others who don't wish to be ruled by Moscow or Beijing. Sell it to the big players FIRST. And be sure to tell the Tibetans, Chechens, and Kurds that THEY don't have any rights to statehood, either.
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BARRISTER
06:23 AM on 04/25/2012
"Maybe start with Russian (sic) and China, both of which feel that, as nation-states, they have a right to rule over others who don't wish to be ruled by Moscow and Bejing. Sell it to the big players FIRST." Physician, Heal Thineself. What Country on Earth feels. " ..as a nation-state, [it has] a right to rule over others who don't wish to be ruled by [ any foreign Nation]?

You Ess Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!!! You got it !!
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warmonkey
07:57 AM on 04/25/2012
This is a typical reply. It doesn't make any sense- it is a childish position, " Injustice is happening elsewhere- so let us ignore this injustice"??? No. Excuses like that are meaningless.
And, how do you figure that the Russians and the Chinese {??} do not have ""a long long history as human beings."?

You don't seem to know much about the situation in the first place, Israel is not "vanishing", in fact- the whole goal of the occupation has been expansion of territory.
03:21 AM on 04/25/2012
That's fair if you reject all ethno-states, autonomous zones, and tribal reservations on the same grounds. Even then, I don't know if that preference would lead you wisely to support armed campaigns to eliminate such societies, much less to select out one of them for such a campaign,

As to why the idea came up in the first place: When it did come up, (in the 1880's) most Jews were living as de jure second class subjects, or were being socially ostracized from mainstream societies (with the bigotry increasing), or were being massacred, in most countries where they lived. This was not the result of choice by the Jews-- where modernist abandonment and rejection of the tradition were most common, the social rejection was also the harshest.

Zionism was one of around five or six solutions that were in contention at the time (another was escaping to the US, and other free places). You can say it was the wrong solution by your values, (and of course that how it has been pusued is wrong), but there is still a material and urgent reason why it happened. It didn't just spontaneously pop up to frivolously satisfy some selfish fantasies.
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Tony Pepperoni
Where did all the good Republicans go?
12:32 PM on 04/25/2012
But there were free countries. You will find that the reality of the Jewish people is hardly unique. There are ostracized people in countries across the globe and the only solution IMO is to either fight for their freedom within the country they live in or flee to one that offers that freedom, because the creation of a homeland just creates a whole new series of issues.

The sooner we realize that we are all one people the better off we will be and there are many countries that offer this (perhaps imperfect, but it is there).