What Do MoveOn Members Think About Health Care? Who Knows? A Reply to MoveOn's Eli Pariser

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Posted August 15, 2008 | 08:06 PM (EST)



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On Wednesday I posted a blog on Huffington Post asking readers to sign a Petition requesting that our friends at MoveOn.Org let its members vote on whether they support universal single payer health care or reforming private health insurance (while adding an optional public plan that the uninsured could purchase themselves). In less than 48 hours, nearly 3,000 people have signed the Petition and, as the Petition spreads virally, new signatures keep coming in at the rate of 50-100 per hour.

On Thursday, Eli Pariser of MoveOn responded with a blog asserting that MoveOn had already determined that by 70%-23%, a majority of its members supported reforming private health insurance with an optional public alternative instead of supporting universal single payer health care, based upon what MoveOn claimed was a "random sample" of its members.

At first this seemed strange to me. Most members of MoveOn are presumably progressive. So one would tend to assume that they would be more supportive of single payer health care than the average American voter. But while polls by major news organizations have shown a majority of Americans supporting single payer, MoveOn's "random sample" indicated MoveOn's member's rejected single payer by nearly 3-1 in favor of a private insurance/public hybrid.

Meanwhile, an Associated Press poll in December, 2007 asked voters "Do you consider yourself a supporter of a single-payer health care system that is a national plan financed by taxpayers in which all Americans would get their insurance from a single government plan, or not?" 54% said "Yes" and 44% said "No".

A CBS News poll last September asked "Which do you think would be better for the country: having one health insurance program covering all Americans that would be administered by the government and paid for by the taxpayers, or keeping the current system where many people get their insurance from private employers and some have no insurance?" 55% chose "One Program for All" and only 29% chose "The Current system".

Something seemed strange here. Could it really be that average American voter is more progressive on universal health care than the average MoveOn member?

Then I started to look more closely at MoveOn's "random sample" and it started to raise a lot of questions about whether it really gave an accurate reading of the opinions of MoveOn's members.

Was this survey conducted by a professional polling organization or put together by the MoveOn staff? Will MoveOn post the polling methodology and statistical results? How many people were sampled and how were they selected? I'm not an expert on statistics, but here are some questions that one Doctor posed about the survey: "What is the power of the study, the standard deviation, the p number?" I've emailed these questions to my friends on the MoveOn staff, but they haven't responded yet. I look forward to their responses, either in private or here in the Huffington Post.

Most important, "Was there any validation study done beforehand to assess the wording of the questions?" The closer I looked, the more it appeared as though the wording of the MoveOn survey had a build in bias that at least appears to skew it towards eliciting the answers that the MoveOn and Health Care For American Now staff had already decided that they agreed with. Two alternatives were provided:

o "Support single payer: Work to cover all Americans by switching from their existing health coverage to free Medicare-style national health insurance and abolishing private insurance companies from our health care system."
o "Support national public health insurance: Work to cover all Americans by offering everyone the choice to switch from their existing health coverage to free or affordable Medicare-style national health insurance, but don't require people to switch."

This wording is confusing. It makes it appear as though the issue is about free choice: Either you can be forced by the Feds to switch into a government program or be given the free choice to keep your present insurance or switch into a "free or affordable" Medicare-style program. I'm a strong supporter of single payer, but if you phrase the issue as one of individual free choice of whether to switch or not, I'd choose the free choice alternative, too.

There are so many ways in which, in real life, the second "appealing" free choice is a fictional alternative. It is unlikely that voluntary "Medicare-style national health insurance" would be "free or affordable" for most middle class Americans. The plan that MoveOn and HCAN is actually backing is based on the Health Care for America plan developed by Jacob Hacker and the Campaign for America's Future. According to the financial model for this, plan prepared for the plan's backers by the Lewin Group, the real cost for a two-parent family is $8040 a year. In addition, families could have to pay as much as $5,000 per year in out of pocket costs. Moreover, the Lewin Group's cost projections are probably low, because they assume that 128.6 million Americans would be insured by the optional public plan, a wildly inflated number that would give the public plan bargaining power to reduce costs that it is unlikely to have. A 2007 study by the Brookings Institution estimates that the annual cost for a family of four to buy a Medicare-type plan would be $10,000 per year. Whether the number is $8,000 a year or $10,000 a year, plus co-payments, this is hardly 'free or cheap" except for those close enough to the poverty line to receive a substantial government subsidy.

Meanwhile, for this plan to have even a chance to work as advertised, it would require a government mandate requiring everyone not covered by their employer to buy insurance. For middle class people who are not poor enough to receive a substantial government subsidy, this would be a financial backbreaker, making this plan a dead bang political loser.

Finally, MoveOn and HCAN argue that an optional public alternative would somehow provide a transition to single payer. They believe it would be so much more attractive than private insurance that more and more people would buy it until private insurance is marginalized. In fact, the opposite is true. Even given administrative savings, as a cadillac insurance program with good benefits, coverage for all medically necessary conditions, choice of doctors, and low deductibles and co-pays, it would be an expensive program. Private insurers would compete by offering low-cost stripped down programs with limited benefits and high deductibles and co-pays, but which would siphon off most of the young and healthy. The public program would become the private insurers' dumping ground for older and less healthy people whom they don't want to cover anyway, thus making the public program increasingly expensive. (This is known as "adverse selection".) Far from marginalizing private insurance, this plan is likely to make the public program increasingly unaffordable for most Americans and bust the federal budget by increasing the cost of federal subsidies.

So the MoveOn "random sample" question alternative for an optional "free or affordable Medicare-style program" is not based on reality. That would explain why MoveOn's "random sample" makes it appear that MoveOn's members are to the right of the American public on single payer.

I truly wish there could be an easy solution that would provide good inexpensive health care for all Americans and wouldn't involve a major political battle with the health insurance and big pharma lobbies. In his Huffpo blog, Pariser accurately warns against "the huge campaign we'll face from private insurance companies, HMOs, and pharmaceutical companies." He then argues that the MoveOn/HCAN proposes "the best strategy for progressives to take" because presumably it will face less political opposition from the special interests. In another Huffpo blog, HCANs Richard Kirsch even argues that the insurance lobby has "nothing to fear" from HCAN's plan, since under HCAN's principles, "people are free to keep their health insurance if they want. They can choose another private plan if they prefer".

MoveOn/HCAN honestly believes that single payer supporters are politically naive, and that MoveOn/HCAN can pass a plan that provides tough new regulations on the private insurance industry, limits their profits, and offers a public plan that will seriously compete with private insurance, without the insurance lobby fighting against such a plan as hard as they will fight against single payer. Doesn't that sound a bit naive?

So, if to have a chance of passing meaningful universal health care reform, we're going to have to build a mass movement to take on the full force of the insurance and pharma lobbies anyway, why, as George Lakoff puts it, does MoveOn/HCAN want to "surrender in advance" by conceding on single payer and promising the continuation of wasteful private insurance system? Somewhere along the line it may be necessary to make some pragmatic political compromises. But you don't win a political fight by giving up your most important principles before the fight even begins. In particular, the job of a progressive mass movement like MoveOn is not to pre-negotiate in advance with the insurance lobby, but to help organize a mass citizens' movement to take it on.

I hope our friends at MoveOn will allow all of its 3.2 million members to vote, in a fairly worded professional poll, on which direction MoveOn should take in the fight for universal health care, after a full and fair debate on the issue is presented to its members.

If you agree, please sign the Petition.

 
 

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- HR676fan See Profile I'm a Fan of HR676fan permalink

Don McCanne of Physicians for a National health Program (PNHP.org) has rightly earned a "HuffPost pick" award. And today (Aug 19), Don alerted single payer supporters that a "new" Harry and Louise ad was launched on ABC News. This ad may look new and may seem to have the right message, but it is sponsored by HCAN--the coalition in league with the insurers. Karen Ignagni of the insurers trade group AHIP even indicated her approval of the message. I'm surprised HCAN didn't include AARP as a co-sponsor. The latter makes billions through its links with United Health Care.
We seem to have so many wolves in sheep's clothing.
How can we be so dumb?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 08/19/2008
- dbuscemi See Profile I'm a Fan of dbuscemi permalink

What a let down. I always trusted Move On to give us the facts. Thanks for the heads up. I'm a member of Move On and I don't remember receiving a survey.

Once all the information is digested there's no question that a true single payer system is the fairest and most moral option.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:47 PM on 08/18/2008
- gypsy508 See Profile I'm a Fan of gypsy508 permalink

We live in a society now where people believe music should be free (regardless of the work and huge amounts of $$$ it takes to make recordings) and that journalism should be free (you are all going to the HuffPost after all).

Why is it that health care, something far more a basic right of humanity is not...even when all other developed countries have it?

Personally as a musician and a journalist, I think doctors should work for free too but that is another matter...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:19 PM on 08/18/2008
- RTIII See Profile I'm a Fan of RTIII permalink


Hi Miles,

You've made a classic mistake - the same one I made once, too, which I still find disturbing because you'd think I'd know better. You see, it turns out that MoveOn.org is not a progressive organization. They are centrists, at best, right of center a little on some issues, like this one. Their politics are that of the Clintons, which explains a lot.

The reason I ought to have known better is that I was one of the original folks who received their "censure and move on" email that started the movement... I had always - mistakenly - thought of them as progressive - and they LIKE to be mistaken as progressive! But when it comes to brass tacks, their shockingly NOT progressive. And, worse to my mind, often make moves - or fail to make moves - based upon silly politics. Here's just ONE example: Move On OUGHT to be calling for - and have been calling for - impeachment, since at least '04, and surely '06, but they won't even consider asking their members about it. Every time I have tried to contact them to discuss it, I get a stone wall non-response.
.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:24 PM on 08/17/2008
- tegrat See Profile I'm a Fan of tegrat permalink

Hmm, I think you're right. They are good at the simple no-brainers, but anything that takes a little thought and/or requires some actual gumption is beyond their capability. Do you think truemajority is in the same boat?
The two places that moveon really misses the boat are single payer and energy policy, but now that you point it out impeachment (of all things, given their provenance) should also be one of their focuses.
Good point.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:02 PM on 08/18/2008
- dmccanne See Profile I'm a Fan of dmccanne permalink
Moderator's Pick

HuffPost's Pick

What is tragic about all of this is that the organizers of HCAN have divided the progressive community by insisting that it was more important to support the politically-driven rhetorical framing of "keeping the insurance you have" (jettisoning single payer supporters) than to emphasize policies that would ensure equitable, affordable, comprehensive health care for all. Just when we were about to disarm the infamous circular firing squad of the progressives, everyone picked up their weapons and started blasting away again.

We all agree that the private insurance industry would require radical transformation into a social insurance model if it were to continue to provide coverage for a major portion of us. The dialogue should be over whether we can totally rebuild the private insurance industry, or if we should replace it with a more efficient single payer national health program. We can work together on that (I'll take single payer, thank you). But the HCAN coalition, including MoveOn, must abandon its insistence that we begin with the current perverse private insurance plans that have no resemblance to social insurance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:07 PM on 08/17/2008
- mmogu77 See Profile I'm a Fan of mmogu77 permalink

This is the most tragic mistake of HCAN and MoveOn--dividing the progressive movement at the moment universal health care may be in sight. They could have formed a broad coalition of progressive organizations and unions for government intervention to create universal health care that included both single payer suporters and supporters of radically remaking of the private insurance industry into a social insurance model. Instead they decided to split the progressive movement and exclude the very single payer supporters that have been the heart and soul of the movement, in order to try to pre-negotiate a compromise that they mistakenly hope will be accepable to the insurance and big pharma industries. You're right--they've re-formed the circular firing squad which has progressive shooting at each other and all that will do make it less likely that any significant reform will take place.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:16 AM on 08/18/2008
- 676orbust See Profile I'm a Fan of 676orbust permalink

Right on, Miles! I was shocked to learn what MoveOn is doing. Given that the majority of Americans favor a single payer universal health care system, their poll seems flawed at best. Moveon should redo it in a fair and scientific manner.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:05 PM on 08/17/2008
- ShelaghC See Profile I'm a Fan of ShelaghC permalink

I'm confused. The poll I found (through a google search, but not from an emailed link) says the following:
http://pol.moveon.org/listening/healthcare4.html
=============================================================
There's massive public support for universal health care, and Barack Obama has promised to make it a top priority if he's president.

Here are two different approaches advocated by progressives. Which do you prefer?

Single payer: Under a single payer health care system, there would be one big national health care plan, like Medicare but for all Americans. Patient would choose their doctors, and insurance companies would no longer have a role.

Medicare for everyone who wants: Under this type of system, there would be a national public health care plan, like Medicare, but joining would be optional. So there'd be universal health care coverage"but people could keep their existing insurance plan if they want to.
=============================================================

This is rather different from what you state in your blog.

Can you provide a link to the MoveOn poll that you're referring to?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:03 PM on 08/17/2008
- mmogu77 See Profile I'm a Fan of mmogu77 permalink

Your're right that this is confusing. MoveOn seems to have sent out several slightly different versions of it poll to its "random" sample. My source is http://pol.moveon.org/healthcare/members.html
I never saw the version you cite, but this version is slanted, too. The "Medicare for everyone who wants" alternative promises "universal health care coverage" but doesn't mention that uninsured middle class people wanting the optional Medicare-like plan would have to pay for it out of their own pockets at $8,000-$10,000/yr plus $5,000 in co-pays for a family, unless they are poor enough to qualify for government subsidies. Contrary to the question's wording, this would not provide "universal health care coverage" unless there were a government mandate forcing the uninsured to buy insurance, which would be unaffordable to many middle class families.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:20 PM on 08/17/2008
- texanna See Profile I'm a Fan of texanna permalink

Thank you for this response to the post by Pariser. I was very surprised by Pariser's post because as an active MoveOn member I was never offered an opportunity to answer any questionnaire regarding health insurance. I don't know who they actually sampled or how they selected that sample, but I would most certainly like to find out. MoveOn has been a good outlet for progressive activism since it's inception, but they have their faults -- the Petraeus ad, the early endorsement of Obama and now this position on national health care. When they do these things, it makes it harder for us on the local level to get people involved in the MoveOn events designed to get people out in the streets and visible instead of just pounding away on their keyboards.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:25 PM on 08/17/2008
- RobStone See Profile I'm a Fan of RobStone permalink
Moderator's Pick

HuffPost's Pick

The public wants universal health care and is very open to single payer as the best mechanism to achieve it, but politicians have always been wary because they fear the power of the insurance industry lobby. Now it seems MoveOn's leadership has decided to act more like politicians than progressive people.

MoveOn needs to address the real concerns raised here that they cooked the results of this "survey" in order to support a decision that they had already made on political grounds, and not very smart political grounds at that.

I've worked in the "safety net" as an ER doctor for the past 25 years. I see every day how our system is collapsing. The for-profit insurance giants are the problem. We don't need to coddle up to them and beg them to play nicer next time (the HCAN/Obama/MoveOn proposal). We need to face them and build the political will to oppose them, so we can save ourselves before the "system" collapses completely.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:03 PM on 08/17/2008
- PatA See Profile I'm a Fan of PatA permalink

For those who are talking about "withdrawing" support for MoveOn, John Hooker sang "think twice before you go" because MoveOn has been the single driving force behind the Democrats for at least 5/6 years.
Find out what you need to about the health insurance poll but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 AM on 08/17/2008
- jdacal See Profile I'm a Fan of jdacal permalink

Being a frequent donor to MoveOn this does come as a surprise to me. I have always participated under the assumption that universal health care was one of the major goals MoveOn was actively pursuing.

Hopefully they will clarify their position after Miles' post. I'll happily participate in another vote, and have always felt goodwill towards MoveOn because of the frequent votes they do send to their members.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:08 AM on 08/17/2008
- moskie23 See Profile I'm a Fan of moskie23 permalink

I was really surprised when I had read this story. I had always thought of Move On.org as a progressive organization that would have supported something like a single-payer system. Finding out that they had then responded with a "survey" of their memebers using such suspect methodology surprised me even more. If anyone could explain their motive in doing this, and why they seem so attached to a policy continuing private-owned health insurance, i would appreciate it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:47 AM on 08/17/2008
- iphelgix See Profile I'm a Fan of iphelgix permalink

Hi Miles, thanks for the awesome post. I have experienced directly TWO single-payer systems...Universal access to a basic human right is truly the way to go, and the single-payer system delivers that in spades.

As for MoveOn...I am withdrawing my support for them, and I encourage others to respond in kind. Railroading it's members into this was dishonest and counter to one of it's core principles. When an organization built on principles starts to abandon them, it's time to find or found another one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:21 PM on 08/16/2008
- texanna See Profile I'm a Fan of texanna permalink

yeah, well, it wouldn't be the first time they've railroaded their members into something with a skewed poll. how do you think they endorsed Obama so early?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:47 PM on 08/18/2008
- tedbear See Profile I'm a Fan of tedbear permalink

Single payer is what needs to happen AND the single payer needs to be the federal government.
I worked for the Social Security Administration in the 1960's when Medicare began, and Medicare is still working. That is because IT IS NOT IN THE HANDS OF PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES!!!!!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 AM on 08/17/2008
- mmogu77 See Profile I'm a Fan of mmogu77 permalink
Moderator's Pick

HuffPost's Pick

From Miles: Although I'm disappointed with my friends at MoveOn's mistaken and undemocratic approach to health care, I encourage you not to withdraw all of your support from MoveOn. MoveOn is a vital part of the progressive movement and does lots of great work in opposing the Iraq War, supporting progressive candidates, and a host of other important issues.
Because we disagree with MoveOn's approach to this one important issue, does not mean we should abandon MoveOn in all their other good work that we do agree with.
On the other hand, MoveOn should treat comments like yours with concern. By taking a divisive and undemocratic approach to health care and trying to exclude single payer supporters from their health care activities, MoveOn risks alienating a large part of its base and losing the support of important parts of its constituency, which may only harm MoveOn and the progressive movement. I hope MoveOn takes this as cautionary tale and reconsiders.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:33 PM on 08/16/2008
- HR676fan See Profile I'm a Fan of HR676fan permalink

I join those who want MoveOn.org to tell its membership exactly how the HCAN endorsement and donation came about. In politics, the truth always comes out eventually, so there's no use equivocating. The polling story doesn't quite hold together. The timeline is suspect, and the purported poll was sloppily worded. Miles has noted the bizarre response pattern-- very different from the results of other national polls.
Members expect transparency from MoveOn.
The insurers are taking 20 to 30 cents of every health care dollar. For what? CEO salaries, shareholder profits, paperwork, and heartache. Why would we want to include them in any new plan?
I urge Huff Post readers and bloggers to call your Congressperson, and candidates for office, and say: "II'm a single payer voter--Enact HR 676. "

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 PM on 08/16/2008
- iphelgix See Profile I'm a Fan of iphelgix permalink

https://forms.house.gov/wyr/welcome.shtml
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

I also recommend emailing w/ the subject line of "Enact HR 676" if at all possible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:07 PM on 08/16/2008
- nursenpo See Profile I'm a Fan of nursenpo permalink

Thanks, Miles, for the polling information.

My friend, Harriette, and I just did a sort of poll of our own this morning. We stood at the farmers' market on Bardstown Road in Louisville and asked the shoppers to sign our petition to congress for HR 676, national single payer health care.

The response was amazing! At least 8 out of 10 signed, and many stopped to tell us of the health care crises in their own lives.

MoveOn should have an open discussion of the issues and then do an unbiased poll of the members. Those who assert that people are not ready to support single payer are not really listening to what people are saying!

I'm a member of MoveOn, and I was never asked about this issue.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 PM on 08/16/2008
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