Marek Edelman: Great Pole, Great Jew, Dies in Warsaw
Marek Edelman died yesterday in Warsaw. Dr. Edelman was a great Polish and Jewish hero. The New York Times obituary describes a human being who makes you proud to be human, and humbled too.
He was one of the leaders of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, in which almost all of his friends were killed. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising was a hopeless enterprise, as Edelman and his friends knew, but they fought almost to make a statement about who they were and what the Nazis were. Edelman always said that he wasn't a hero and that going to one's death without fighting was heroic too. In his words: if you weren't there you wouldn't understand.
A year after the Jewish revolt he fought in the general Warsaw uprising which also turned into a slaughter as the Russians stood by enjoying the spectacle pf Germans killing Poles (the Soviet army was just across the Wisla river and the Poles thought they would help. Or, at least, hoped they would. The Poles never had any illusions about the Stalinists).
Of course, the Soviets, knowing they would soon "own" Poland, were all too happy to watch the Nazis slaughter the best and bravest young Poles. And Poland went from six years under the Nazis to 40 plus under the Stalinists.
Edelman never left Poland and was one of the leaders of Solidarity, which essentially began the unraveling of Stalinism both in Poland and ultimately throughout Europe. He lived 64 years after having lived a virtual lifetime during the war.
His family left Poland for France. But he never gave up on his country and lived to see it free and democratic. Tragically, however, the Jewish community of three million that the Germans eradicated is not coming back.
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I am hardly stating any requirement for membership in the Democratic Party, but I DO think that the positions advoacted by some are FAR outside the mainstream of todays Democratic Party. I realize that such views were the NORM back in the Cold War days, but most folks have outgrown such things as we now know better. FDR was not a traitor or a fool or a sellout to Stalin. The GOP still thinks so though, so such views might find more friendly a reception in that venue. I fail to see ANY idea of what else FDR could have done. Bartosz shrinks from the only real alternative which was war.
The fact is that yes the Red Army could indeed have fought alongside the Polish Army as they did with other forces.. It is only the parnoid refusal to consider a rational option that makes such a thing impossible. If the Germans had attacked the Poles and Red Army, it would not have done the Red Army or the Poles any good to fight each other. After a defeat of the Germans, the Poles would still have a large battle hardened army and government in being if the Soviets tried anything. The Soviets DID withdraw from many places that they had occupied after WWII.
I see that Bartosz is more concerned about the ideology of the Bolsheviks and that it required military action to surpress it. That is the idea of ALL dictators. The Bolsheviks thought as most Americans do, that people DO have the right to make a revolution,especially when they have no power at all to vote. I see that he does NOT like that idea at all, thus I cannot understand how he can call himself a liberal. I guess the idea of Poles revolting against the military and getting rid of their rulers, is a bad idea for him.
I guess I can figure out where he stands on what is going on in Honduras now! The damned peasants and people have NO right to decide what will happen in their country and revise the military imposed Constitution! Give me a break! I am a Democrat which means that I do support the rights of all political parties to contest elections, not only the ones which I approve of.
Ok, randyjet. I have no more to say to you. I'm sorry but you come off as an extremely narrow-minded dogmatic quack with absurdly naive misunderstanding of history. You seem to believe, as unfortunately many political conservatives do, that simply shouting louder and longer will somehow make your arguments valid. Well, that is not how mature historical and political discourse works.
I wish you the best and I regret having failed to help you but your needs are well beyond the scope of this forum.
Good luck and remember: Books are your friends!
Bartosz you are wasting your time people who have no compassion for the millions of Polish citizens murdered in Poland and Siberia concentration camps always have something bad to say about Poland
Some facts—
1.Poland signed its own non-aggression pact with Germany BEFORE Soviets.
This allowed Poland to grab some Czech lands at the same time. So much for noble self righteousness.
2.The alliance of European collective security proposed by Soviets was blocked by Chamberlain and Polish government BAD MOVE!
3. In 1945, Poland as compensation for loss of lands ( to which they had little claim), received East some German lands.
Ooops, inconvenient truths,
Again, no one claims Polish "noble self righteousness." Please stop misrespresenting my statements. It's just irresponsible. These are hardly inconvenient truths, as you put it. Even the rightist Polish President Kwaśniewski admitted to this "our sin" in his speech commemorating the outbreak of WW2. Since gaining independence in 1918, Poland was more concerned with the Soviet menace than the Nazi one. Even so, no one deluded himself with the permanence of the non-aggression treaty with Hitler. And no one in Poland justifies the taking of Teschen from the Czechs. It was inexcusable and wrong but it wouldn't have happened had the British and French not given Czechoslovakia to Hitler at Munich. Let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees here.
Please refer to my comment to randyjet regarding the "compensation" of German lands in exchange for the Soviet occupation of formerly eastern Poland and what that "compensation" entailed in terms of human cost.
I do find it interesting how your method of argument is to ignore points inconvenient to your views and simply grasp onto something else. Unfortunately, at some point you'll run out of Wikipedia entries.
Polish invasion of Soviet lands was wrong. Just as wrong as subsequent Soviet invasion of Poland.
The loss of Ukraine has always been a sore point with Polish jingoists. The revanchist movement periodically resurfaces in Poland. Especially in view of the precipitous decline of Poland position suffered from the 30s on.
Now that Poland yet again won ( or has been given ) independence, the same unseemly sentiments is resurfacing.
Eastern Europe is better off when Poland is relatively weak.
Poland has been peddling their noble self righteousness for close to two centuries now. Much of it with little basis in truth. Much of it self-inflicted.
The bete noir is always different but the chaos and disastrous political decisions remain uniquely Polish.
From Khmel'nitski on.
There is only ONE standard to judge the legitimacy of any regime as far as being a free country. That is are there fair, free elections with univeral franchise and freedom to campaign? Anything else is a dictatorship. It is NOT a free country in any way shape or form. In Bartosz universe, you can only be a true dictator unless you are a Hitler. The FACT is that dictatorships come in all varieties, shapes and colors. Mussolini was a dictator, yet he was deposed by a vote. I guess that means that Italy was not a dictatorship then. This parsing of small differences is absurd. I suggest you lose your prejudices for Poland and look at reality and judge them with unbiased eyes.
It has led you to things like, it is OK to start a war without cause. I guess using your logic you supported the US invasion of Iraq. Then it is OK to not have free elections, as long as it is not a dictatorship! Then FDR was bad in not starting WWIII to attack the Soviet Union to restore the dictatorial pre-war Polish government. I think that your home is on the extreme right wing with those.
To "randyjet": please read:
http://www.ucis.pitt.edu/eehistory/H200Readings/Topic4-R3.html
Thanks for posting the reading, Jb6. I'm afraid "randyjet" requires more instructional help than I, as a teacher, can deliver. I only hope his prejudices will not stand in the way.
Bartosz posted " Piłsudski in 1919 took advantage of the Civil War in Russia to RECLAIM historical Polish lands that were TAKEN by Russia in the 18th century."
LOL
Perfectly natural reason for starting a war and occupying Belarus and Ukraine---- to a Pole, anyway. Enforcing borders from 300 years ago!!!!
Speaking of the lipstick and proverbial barn animal.
Good union man, sorry to hear of his passing.
Just for the record, leaders of the Ghetto uprising were not killed by Germans; they committed suicide when the collapse of the uprising was obvious. Mr. Edelman did not join them.
While I am in awe of Dr. Edelman's accomplishments, I find it a rather sour note to blast only the Soviets for inaction, while letting off the Poles who likewise stood on the sidelines during the Jewish uprising. The Poles were at least right in the city, had arms, and means to aid the Jewish resisters more than they did. The Soviets on the other hand had a river crossing to face, which as any military person knows is one of the most hazardous kinds of ops that you can do. It also overlooks the attempts made to make such a crossing by the Soviets.
This writer aslo overlooks the instructions and plans that were being debated by the London Poles as to what the Home Army should do as the Red Army came into Poland. The overwhelming sentiment was to not only fight the Germans, but to fight the Soviets as well. This was coming from the same idiots who thought it was a great idea to have spurned an alliance with the Soviet Union against the Germans. So instead of having the Red Army on their side against the Germans, they got to fight the Germans all by themselves.
It is a gross distortion of history to lay ALL of the blame on outside forces.. The Poles of the pre-war dictatorship were the ones who were primarily responsible for the catastrophe that they helped promote both before the war and after.
You are the one distorting history Poland did not invade
7 mil Polish citizens were slaughtered. Show were you are coming from
Blame the victims.
You cannot be this naive. Poland had fought a bitter war with the Soviet Union in 1919-1921 turning away the Bolsheviks at the gates of Warsaw in 1920. This, in turn, came just as the country emerged from over a century of partition as well as political and cultural repression at the hands of Russians, Germans, and Austrians. To think that Polish leaders had a serious and viable option of forming a beneficial alliance with the Soviets (or the Nazis) in the inter-war period is to egregiously ignore the context of the times and particularly Poland's international position vis-a-vis its totalitarian neighbors both of whose political ideologies were predicated on territorial aggrandizement and domination. Even a cursory look at inter-war politics would reveal the impossibility of Poland's choices. What is telling, however, if you choose to crack open a book ever now and again, is that Poland in the early 1930s has approached the French and the British with a proposition for a preemptive strike against Germany. This, unfortunately as it turned out, fell on deaf ears. In any case, to seriously expect ANY Polish leadership to ally itself with the Stalin is to grossly misunderstand the relations between the two countries. Such an alliance would be a death warrant to Poland. You can only look to the murder of 20,000 Polish officers at Katyn and elsewhere as well as the post-war takeover (courtesy of the oh so trusting FDR) for further evidence.
You forget the FACT that Poland started the war with the new Soviet Union, so it should be the Soviets who have hurt feelings not the Poles. Pilsudski had FAR more territorial ambitions than the Soviets had at the time, and the Polish government was not a democracy or free expression of the Polish people. If the Soviet Union and Germany could have an alliance, then it certainly would have been possible for two neighbors who both had a real interest in keeping Germany out to have one.
As for any pre-emptive strike against Hitler, that overlooks the FACT that both Britian and France were rather approving of Hitler at the time and thought of him as a good bulwark against the Soviet Union. To even suggest that they would attack Germany after the horror of WWI is beyond absurd and shows such ignorance of history and society that it is delusional. it reeks of Polish hubris that they were totally blameless in what happened, and anything a Pole does is good, and anything somebody else does is bad. I have no idea of why right wing nuts are on this blog, and it shows in your hatred of FDR.
To address your other arguments, the Polish Home Army was in no condition to assist the Ghetto Uprising in 1943. For that matter, it was hardly ready to fight in 1944. Your claim that it "had arms and means" to assist the Jewish fighters in 1943 is laughable. Even in August 1944, the Home Army fighters went up against German tanks and planes with enough weapons to only arm half their number. The arms that they did have were mostly handguns and quite a number of them were homemade and unreliable. Similarly, they had ammunition only for a few days fighting and had to hope to capture German stocks. They chose to rise up, however, essentially because of the gamble that the German garrison would not stand and fight in the face of the approaching Red Army. In turn, the fear of the Red Army "liberating" Warsaw by itself spurned the Home Army leadership and the London Government-In-Exile to attempt taking Warsaw first and presenting the Soviets with a fait-accompli. Finally, your statement that the Soviets did attempt a crossing of the Vistula to assist the Home Army is patently false. The units that attempted to cross (AGAINST Soviet orders) were actually units of the 1st Polish Army made up of Polish soldiers of whom my grandfather was one.
In the end, far from being "idiots" as you so eloquently put it, the London Poles clearly understood the danger of the Red Army on Polish soil. Even in 1920, the Bolsheviks entered Polish territory with with political commissars in tow. 1944 was no different. In fact, the decision was not as simple as you claim. Home Army units were instructed to cooperate with communist partisans to fight the Germans but to resist any communist efforts to undermine their political authority. The fighting that took place was in response to the Soviets capturing and murdering Home Army leaders - a systematic effort that continued well after the war ended.
Please, PLEASE know something about this before you make ridiculously naive and ignorant statements. Your assertion that the Polish leadership before the war is somehow responsible to what happened to Poland at the hands of the Nazis (who thought of Poles as subhuman and wanted to reduce the society to mere serfs) and the Soviets (who wanted - and largely succeeded - to eliminate the Polish intelligentsia) is not only naive and ignorant but insulting to Poles and anyone who has studied this era. Finally, it is offensive to the memory of a great man like Marek Edelman and all that he stood for and fought for.
I find the statement that the Home Army had some political authority a little funny.They had NO political authority to compromise since there was NO government at all. They were most certainly not freely elected since the pre-war government was a dictatorship. So just how would they have to compromise any political authority? This is simply unreal and deals in fantasy rather than reality, which of course, is why the Polish government made the colossal blunders that got it thrown out.
To all the liberals on this site, you have to realize that the folks who argue for the purity and decency of the London Poles would have gladly shot, imprisoned all who are like us. They are like the Cuban exiles in Miami whose democratic pretentions are non existent and who would if returned to power would simply install the old dictatorships.
It appears that randyjet has some Polish biases.
The uprising in Ghetto was possible only thanks to the help form the Polish underground opposition. It had no chances for any success. It was just the voice of despair. It was about dying with dignity. Before expressing strong opinions about what happened in the Ghetto, one should read "Notes from the Warsaw Ghetto" by Emanuel Ringelblum. They were never translated into English as they contradict many opinions cherished by American Jews. The original was written in Yiddish.
The Home Army, especially its leaders in the occupied Poland cooperated with front units of the Red Army, and realized that in the future Poland they would need to deal with the Soviet influence. However, Soviets did not care about it, they already created the Polish People's Army, and wanted the Home Army completely out of the picture in Poland after the war.
I have NO anti-Polish bias at all, just a bias against rightwing slanders,and dictators which all of those who have written against what I have said seem to rather like. I see that there is NO mention of the kind of government Poland had at the time of the beginning of WWII,and all of the writers seem to LOVE that government and have the SAME approach as that of W Bush. If you are NOT supporting the dictatorship, you are anti-Polish. Sorry folks, those of us who DO know history are more committed to the truth than you.
The time for crude anti-communism is over and it does NOT excuse the failures of the Polish government of the time nor its crimes.
Let me correct myself, "Notes from the Warsaw Ghetto" are available in English now,
http://www.amazon.com/Notes-Warsaw-Ghetto-Emmanuel-Ringelblum/dp/1596873310
A few years ago, I was looking for this book in English, and could not find it. I did not check it again before writing my comment. My thanks to one of the readers, Janie A., for finding this book for me.
We in the United States have debased the word hero by constantly misapplying it to the merely competent and diligent. The so called "everyday heroes" we like to flatter ourselves to be. The extraordinary Marek Edelman was the very rare real thing. A lifetime of heroic action. Only old age could cut him down.
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