Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din

Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din

Posted: September 24, 2009 09:33 PM

Part I: Dear America, Letter from a Muslim-American

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I write to you, America, as a Muslim-American who is frustrated at seeing both sides of my identity spreading myths about each other. In part one of this two part article, I address America from a Muslim perspective. In part two, which will follow in the coming weeks, I shall write to the Muslim community, from an American perspective.

Dear America,

Our world today is assaulted with myriad headlines describing rising extremism and terrorism, and political instability in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Middle East. Despite the plethora of bad news, most recently we have seen a day of hope marked by the end of Ramadan, where Muslims from all nations, social classes, and sects openly united in the spirit of humility, brotherhood, thankfulness, and peace. As human beings, you and me have a tendency to let the negative marginalize the good and the true. But in this Ramadan the unity and the message of peace and humility that nearly a billion Muslims have exhibited should not go unnoticed, nor should it be underestimated. America, even though you are part of us (Muslims) and we are a part of you, you often fear and misunderstand the one thing that unites the billion of us around the world in peace, love, and spiritual strength. You fear our religion, Islam. I write the following to not accuse anyone or apologize on behalf of any group. In part one of this article, I speak to you America, as one Muslim who is part of the majority of Muslims standing against the Ahmedinijads, Bin Ladens, and Taliban and Al Qaeda. These men have stolen my voice...our voice. The actions of a violent minority have for too long trumped the selfless and righteous actions of the moderate majority who do good in the name of Islam.

Firstly, Muslims are not a violent people and Islam is not a violent religion. I fear you overlook the fact that the faith of Muslims has been monopolized by the corrupt despots of Muslim countries and Muslim extremists. And it is the extremists whose power is bolstered by a media that has paralyzed the voice of the Muslim majority, who in fact abhor violence and terrorism. It can be confusing even to me because on one side we only see Muslim extremists on the TV preaching hate in the name of Islam and we barely hear the majority. As I will touch on in part two of this article, Muslims have even marginalized themselves. But America, Muslims are a community of over a billion people, most of whom live in poverty within developing countries governed by oppressive, abusive, authoritarian regimes. These very regimes remain bunkered against an alienated group of extremists who are taking to the gun instead of a potentially rigged ballot. It is our mothers and daughters and sons who are being killed on a daily basis by either violent extremists or botched missile attacks by NATO. We are against violence and terrorism America, be it from Muslim extremists or NATO bombs. We are against violence because it is we who are the primary target of most terrorist attacks today. And while we may disagree with your military actions and policies, we look up to the principles that make up America...I speak of the freedom to be critical of yourself as a society and government; the opportunities awarded by the most comprehensive education system in the world; and your effortless ability to adapt in an ever transforming world.

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(Girl in Kashmir/photo by Mohsin Mohi-Ud-Din)

Secondly, we Muslims, especially the Muslim youth, are not limited to the identifications that many parts of you believe us Muslims to be. Many see us to be ignorant, introverted, backwards, fundamentalist people. This is far from the truth. We are artists, painters, poets, doctors, lawyers, musicians, intellectuals, gay, straight, punk or conservative, man and woman, and yes we too are American.

Thirdly, Muslims abroad and Muslims in America are often confused by your (America) political and military actions, which sometimes contradict the pro-freedom, pro-democratic pro-human rights rhetoric. Yes, the fault is ours (the Muslims) in numerous respects, but America, historical facts show that failed foreign policies have contributed to the political and economic landscape in which many Muslim led authoritarian regimes currently thrive. As an American myself, I know it is not the American agenda to kill civilians. The brave men and women in the armed forces are fighting for international peace and security. I truly believe this. So, why do many other Muslims in my community distrust American policies and actions?

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(View From Inside Mecca/ photo by Mohsin Mohi-Ud-Din)

Every civilian death in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan leaves a cut in the collective Muslim conscious...be it for a Muslim in Iowa or a Muslim in Morocco. It is felt in every corner of the Muslim world. And the lasting effects of failed foreign polices cut just as deep. Take the example of Afghanistan, where the C.I.A armed, trained, and funded freedom fighters during the Cold War. These fighters later shed blood and defeated the Soviets. But after the smoke cleared, when Afghanis needed development and aid upon their victory for the West, the people were abandoned. Perhaps former U.S. Representative Charlie Wilson said it best, "These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we [America] f*&ked up the endgame." The Muslim fighters trained by America, later regrouped as the Taliban whom we see resurfacing today.

In 1953, President Mossadeq, the once popular, pro-democratic leader of Iran, was driven out of office in a coup d'etat funded and supported by the CIA. He was replaced by a dictator whose ineptness spawned the Islamic Revolution that transformed a once democratic, secular society into a theocracy led by brutes such as Ahmedinijad. In the area of women's rights and political transparency, America is an outspoken leader for reform, and yet, America is also an uncritical ally of Saudi Arabia, a country where women's empowerment or political pluralism has remained stagnant for hundreds of years. You speak of human rights, and yet you are a staunch ally to India who commits mass atrocities in Kashmir, where 70,000 have been killed since 1989. But the main conflict on every Muslim's psyche is Palestine and it is here where your rhetoric and your actions on human rights has most frustrated both Muslims and Arabs. I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself and I support Palestine's right to exist and defend itself. International law has been violated on both sides, but one side operates with impunity while the other remains in rubble. This affects the Muslim's collective-psyche as it promotes the sentiment that the world sees Muslims as sub-human and that laws related to human rights don't apply to Muslims. Yes, that is untrue, I know, but the ridiculousness of such a myth is not so obvious to the millions of Muslims who live in war-torn and oppressive countries lacking justice and accountability.

Despite all of these examples, if you simply talk to Muslim youth, you will still find that the overwhelming majority of young Muslims make a distinction between American politics and American innovation and culture. Listen to how many Muslim youth pray for greater democracy in Iran, for example. See how many Muslim youth watch MTV and Gossip Girl in Morocco, or, eat KFC in Saudi. See how many Kashmiris would beg to walk in one of your universities. Just look at the hundreds of millions of Muslims in Africa and Asia who watched the 2008 elections as if it were their own. Witness the joy that was felt when popular democracy prevailed with Obama's victory. America, you are not just a country. You are an idea that is looked up to by the world.

The final myth I would like to challenge is the concept of Islam being THE threat. This sentiment is becoming far too entrenched in America and as a Muslim- American this deeply concerns me. For example, when President Obama was pictured wearing Kenyan garb, the press were in uproar over him dressing as a 'Muslim'. Indeed, there are warlords, despots, and extremists who have hijacked my religion, and lead the world on. But to allow Islamophobia to be the status quo in you, America, is no different from the Muslim world allowing its own to think that America is THE evil.

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(Inside the Dome of the Rock, mosque in Jerusalem/photo by Mohsin Mohi-Ud-Din)

Islam and the Quran are not the threat America. Instead, Islam is the source of inspiration for many to be better human beings. What inspiration has Islam given to the West? Under the Islamic Golden Age, for example, Islam inspired scientists, poets, activists, and philosophers. Many of their innovations have come to be adopted into the very fabric of Europe and America. Even most Muslims forget that as far back as the 8th Century, it was Islamic and Jewish philosophers who promoted freedom of speech, religious freedom, secularism, and peace. In the realm of agriculture it was Muslim farmers who introduced crop rotation. Doctors developed the world's first public hospitals. Muslim academics opened the world's first universities awarding diplomas in a diverse array of subjects. Arab musicians introduced the bass drum, the violin, and the guitar to Europe. Averroes, an Andalusian Muslim polymath and Islamic philosopher, developed and explored the concept of secularism and he is described as the father of secularism for Western Europe. (for an outline of Islam's contributions to modern Western society visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age) If Islam is such a threat then how could such positive advancements, made hundreds upon hundreds of years ago, be inspired by Islam?

I look at the Muslim world today and I see a community in disarray, affected by poverty, war, political oppression, extremism. (I speak to this in part two, following this article). But in this past month of fasting, (Ramadan), I felt my community coming closer to its core. During Ramadan I witnessed families together, praying for peace, fasting in solidarity with non-Muslims and Muslims. On Eid this past Sunday, hundreds of millions of Muslim families from Africa, America, Europe, Asia, were not standing against the world, but were spreading the message of charity, peace, and patience. Men, women and children were hugging the stranger sitting next to them. For the first time in my spiritual life, I heard the leader of Friday prayers at a mosque in Maryland ask us to be more active in social service and community development. In fact, the cleric promoted the American value of "citizenship." I see these things and I do not see Islam as a threat. I see a solution...I see hope. I write this to you America, not to accuse you of the rift that exists today with the Muslim world, because America is not solely responsible. Muslims carry the prime responsibility of political-economic problems affecting them. I write this letter to you America so that you may in some way be more aware of the Muslim majority and have hope in it as well.

You will find contradictions in us, America, and Muslims will find contradictions in you. Like all values and great ideals, it is we humans who taint them and pervert them. Islam is not an exception. In fact, it is time for us in the Muslim community to look in the mirror and reform, as I will talk about in more detail in part two. Muslims and external players continue to taint the ideal of Islam. But America, the longer you hold on to the status-quo of Islam as the threat, the larger the rift will grow between you and the Muslim world; thus leaving a world divided. Muslims and non-Muslims in the West and in the East: faith must triumph over fear.

Follow Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mohsindin

 
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This is a very interesting article that I will no doubt read several more times. I appreciate your posting it and I will look for Part 2 as well. I would feel much better about the whole topic if the advent of Muslim communities in Western societies did not always seem to lead to a desire to impose Islamic practices on the whole community. A silly, but relevant, example was the issue of Muslim taxicab drivers not wanting to pick up fares that were carrying alcohol. Well, they were welcome to their beliefs, but if they want to live under that restriction in a society that supports it, then move to that society. Do not seek to change mine.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:11 AM on 10/29/2009
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"To be a Muslim nowadays is to live perpetually on the edge, to be constantly bruised and bloodied from the harsh existence at the margins, to be exhausted by the screams of pain and agony that no one seems to hear. We, the Muslims, live in a world that is not of our own making, that has systematically marginalised our physical, intellectual and psychological space, that has occupied our minds and our bodies by brute force – even though sometimes this force comes in the guise of scholarship and literary fiction. We walk around with a 400-year historical baggage of decline and colonisation; we think with terms, and talk about institutions, that have been fossilised in history; we walk around with split personalities hiding our real Self from the world outside and pretending to be scientists, technologists or social scientists, wearing the symbols of modernity on our chest; we speak a philosophical and ethical language that the dominant ideology does not understand. We have been developed to death, modernised to extinction, Leninised into oblivion, and now we are being written out of history by postmodernism. Criticism and self-criticism is the only tool we have to fight back; and excellence in thought and action our only guarantee of success."

- Ziauddin Sardar, from "Islam, Postmodernism and Other Futures: A Ziauddin Sardar Reader (pp.17-18)

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:58 AM on 10/18/2009
- Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din 19 fans permalink

Thats a great quote my friend and it those very themes that I will touch on in part of this article where I address the Muslim community.

thanks so much,
M

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:14 PM on 10/18/2009

Blaming all your troubles on others is no self-critique. Always looking back in nostalgia leads to stagnation and depression. The main problem in Islam is the subjugation of women. 70% of Arab women are illiterate. Ignorant mothers raise ignorant children.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:05 PM on 11/11/2009
- alexa07 I'm a Fan of alexa07 50 fans permalink

Thank you for a wonderful article, Mohsin! You will have your detractors who don't want to consider any ideas that might run counter to their entrenched stereotypes, but as I see it, the strength of the Islamic religion & culture is its inclusiveness. Its strength is that is does NOT exclude; its huge number of adherents(& growing no. of converts) illustrates that it works as a way of life for people who are very diverse, living in nearly every region of the world. Its inclusiveness is the quality that Islam shares with the best of ideals in American society. I am looking forward to your next article.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:06 PM on 10/17/2009


When I did anthropology relating to Morocco, a big part of discussion was the negotiation of reality in discourse. But the O Reilly SHow does not count and neither do many blogs-- because no one is really listening.

One comment more-- you write: See how many Muslim youth watch MTV and Gossip Girl in Morocco, or, eat KFC in Saudi. See how many Kashmiris would beg to walk in one of your universities.

While you may not be equating a university education with eating KFC, or putting MIT and MTV on the same level, let please be careful not to promote global capitalism as if it is the same as democracy. You will get a push back there.


Good for you making it to Morocco-- spent much time there and would be interested in your studies
peace,
adem

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:15 PM on 10/03/2009
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"While you may not be equating a university education with eating KFC, or putting MIT and MTV on the same level, let please be careful not to promote global capitalism as if it is the same as democracy. You will get a push back there."

I was going to make the same comment!

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:42 AM on 10/18/2009
- Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din 19 fans permalink

Kids like fried chicken and many enjoy passing time by watching Beyonce on MTV. thats not promoting global capitalism. Its stating a trend one observes amongst youth in Muslim-Arab countries like Saudi, Morocco, India, etc. If that small sentence concerns you then you missing the point of the whole article. The point of that sentence is to show that a majority of Muslim youth, in particular the Arab Muslims I have been living with, are not the anti-American, extremist, fundamentalists that media makes us out to be. We have diverse tastes, dreams, grievances, needs, beliefs, which should not be marginalized by the limited identity of islamic extremism. Muslims are beyond that.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:12 PM on 10/18/2009

AA Kiddo. Lebes alik. . OK regarding your passionnate message--there is fault on all sides and you take a good middle way approach-- most Muslims all know what you have said and agree already.

This essay is good for those who think Muslims are not saying this--again & again----the disconnect has been on all sides. Seems like we Muslims have to say it again and again even though it can feel like we are being made to grovel sometimes. However I also think we (perhaps especially on internet) have created a received wisdom, a common pool of opinion and perspective created by the media and it would help us all if we questioned some of the assumptions here.

Also there are some very different ideas in Morocco, whether traditionally rooted in the spirit world of Jinn or in a somewhat paranoid post colonial world of perceived marginalization & resentment. I am sure that if you get around you will find this and be disturbed. It is no more bizarre than the ideas many fellow americans have about the world or about Islam, however. Critical and self- questioning appraoch --an honest one-- will serve and might yet save both Muslims and Americans.

So I ask us all to go deeper. And question our selves. Whatever that is-- our social roles, our identitues, our opinions. Insight can only appear when the conditions are ready, when we relax the hold of received wisdom.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:14 PM on 10/03/2009
- anitaj I'm a Fan of anitaj 8 fans permalink

Thank you for this thoughtful and thought-provoking post, Moshin.

I have long believed that most people are basically decent folks who do their best regardless of the circumstances. Every population has a small percentage of (expletive goes here) who are more concerned with having power over other people than in the welfare of their neighbors. These people often seize on religious precepts to justify their greed, malice, and cruelty.

Many faiths have been hijacked in this way. Al Qaeda no more represents Islam than the folks at Westboro Baptist Church represent Christianity (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/28/westboro-baptist-church-p_0_n_302211.html?page).

Communicating across cultures and religious traditions is a tricky business. I salute your efforts to help us see each other more clearly and remind us that most people are not (expletive goes here).

I look forward to your next post.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:44 PM on 09/30/2009
- Areyoume2 I'm a Fan of Areyoume2 16 fans permalink

There are those in America who live to marginalize others: it's likely the Muslim community is just the latest flavor of the month. America has harbored dark sentiments towards many of its own. In fact, it's very often those who are discriminated against who are the next ones to discriminate. (I thought it was amusing in Staten Island NYC that one of the bat wielding crazy-boys who went beserk through the neighborhood (beating up black youths) after Obama's win was: Hispanic!! He was running with a group of Italo-boys. It's like he didn't even realize that they'd just as likely turn their bats on him.

I hope the Muslim/Middle Eastern time at bat will be short-lived. America, unfortunately, has a mighty big rep for being openminded and tolerant, but OFTEN fails to meet its own standards.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:49 AM on 09/28/2009
- Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din 19 fans permalink

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to say the response to article has been amazing and I wanted to thank all of you for reading and posting your comments. Yes, I dont agree with most of you, but thats ok, bc the point is to hear one another out and listen and debate on a respectful, civil platform. MY ONLY REQUEST IS THAT YOU KEEP THE COMMENTS RESPECTFUL AND CIVIL. If not, ill remove your posts.

Keep the comments coming and let us continue to debate and think together.

Salam, Paz, Shalom, Peace
Mohsin (auhtor)

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:45 AM on 09/28/2009

This open letter has generated a number of comments. That's good, especially when the usual riffraff don't respond. However, let me ask a series of fundamental questions concerning the nature of "dialogue".

1) Are we to talk about values that bind us or divide us? As far as I understand the Koran, there are many points of similarity, logical since Islam falls within the Judeo-Christian tradition. However, that said, there are two areas where we in the West have struggled to secure a space that nowhere exists in any real Muslim society. That is, ever since the Reformation, intellectuals and scientistis have sought to secure a firm basis for the right to dissent, to express views contrary to established religion, etc. That the university - and to some extent the media - are the pillars of this "free space". This process was not easy. Gallileo was forced to renounce what he knew to be true.

Yes, learning was preserved and revived in the Islamic naissance. This was because discoveries made in the context of learning were seen as revealing God's truth. What happens when universities begin challenging God's truth? In the US, we have people who deny the long geologic record. We have people who challenge evolution. Islam stagnated precisely when extending and deepening knowledge was no longer perceived to serve Allah. Western religious and state entities, which established universities to compete with and catch up to Islamic learning, lost their ability to control learning and dictate truth.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:54 PM on 09/27/2009
- joeyfoto I'm a Fan of joeyfoto 50 fans permalink
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VANDERGRAAFK: That's a very good post. It is right on point; Islam has stagnated precisely because it has not passed through a Reformation, which precludes the development of an Enlightenment. This is similarly true of America's Christian Fundamentalists who have shot backwards 300 years in thinking and basically stopped doing it.

There are far fewer new books published in Arabic (186,000,000 native speakers), than there are in Dutch (22,000,000 native speakers). There are few societies on earth where it is more incumbent upon those who doubt or even question the prevailing belief system to leave.

Islamic acceptance of mindless certainty is asphixiating the creative consciousness of the Muslim world, and those who dream and think and debate are in great danger often physical danger from expressing heretical views. That is a perscription for permanent failure. That is why this thoughtful piece by Mohsin Mohi-Ud Din is so welcome.

I just read a great quote from Eli Weisel, who wrote:
"The opposite of Faith is not heresy; it is apathy."

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:53 AM on 09/28/2009
- tyruler I'm a Fan of tyruler 10 fans permalink

I kindly and respectfully disagree.

It is precisely when Muslims were following their faith most closely and piously that they had their greatest accomplishments. Unlike the Christian Europeans who gained when they left the dogmas of the Catholic Church and ushered in Enlightenment, via the Arabs' Golden Age.

All the great thinkers and scientists of the Islamic world affirmed, not shied away, from their Islamic identity.

When the Muslim nation left their Islamic virtues of honesty, unity, brotherhood, and self-sacrifice for self-serving nationalism, corruption, monarch-worship, ...Muslims believe God left them.

What defines and differentiates this community after all is solely the belief in the oneness of God and Muhammad being the final messenger. You don't have to be born in a particular tribe or confined within a nation's border to be a citizen of Islam. You could be an American, Iranian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Pakistani, Russian, Georgian, Israeli, Palestinian yet still be united in your identity, your passport of Islam.

Islam as Malcolm X and Pew poll have concluded, is the most diverse religion in America and in the face of this world.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:33 PM on 09/28/2009
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Thank you for your thoughtful letter.

"faith must triumph over fear."

Faith is nothing more than wishful thinking and is often used as a weapon to promote fear. Reason and compassion must triumph over fear.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:50 PM on 09/27/2009
- Ken114 I'm a Fan of Ken114 5 fans permalink

I agree fully with this I wish others would truly understand that Christianity and Islam are arguably 95% the same with only 5% major difference. I truly hope for the day when all God's children will come together in the same circle in peace.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:04 PM on 09/27/2009
- ElkoJohn I'm a Fan of ElkoJohn 13 fans permalink
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''Thirdly, Muslims abroad and Muslims in America are often confused by your (America) political and military actions, which sometimes contradict the pro-freedom, pro-democratic pro-human rights rhetoric.''

The short answer:
The US only supports foreign governments who support our national interests.
Pro-freedom, pro-democratic pro-human rights rhetoric takes a back seat to
maintaining the American Empire and fighting our ''enemies.''
We didn't learn much from the Vietnam experience.
Will military power carry the day in the Af-Pak war ??
in the Kashmir war ??
in the Israeli-Palestinian war ??
Will those in power every give up their faith in killing their way to a solution ??
Time will tell.

P.S. Civilian casualties are considered ''collateral damage'' by the military.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:32 PM on 09/27/2009
- CVN65 I'm a Fan of CVN65 25 fans permalink

While they are considered a "direct hit" by the terrorists being fought by the military.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:50 PM on 09/28/2009

Reading this was a welcome change and very much appreciated. I look forward to reading part two of your letter!

Thank you!

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:00 PM on 09/27/2009



Brother Moshin, your article was deeply moving. I am still processing the content on different levels and will respond at a later time. I also look forward to reading Part II. From the responses here, it is clear I am not alone in feeling you bring a much needed and valued perspective to us. Thank you for the gift.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:58 PM on 09/27/2009

Dear Squeezer55, there are 4 denominations of the Islam, Sufi, Shi'a, Sunni and Kharijite. Ismaili is a sect of the Shi'as and Wahhabi is a sect of the Sunnis. I suggest you get log off the internet and walk to your closest Public Library, probably a socialist institution. Great american education system you have.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 PM on 09/27/2009
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Kind of straining at gnats, aren't you? Exactly what separates a cult, a sect, and a denomination is debatable at best and irrelevant at worst. American Mormons are possibly the best example, having been labeled as all three in their short, turbulent history.

Kharijites, for example, comprise a splinter group which broke with the Shia around 657. By any rational definition, they are a sect. If you, for whatever reason, choose to designate them a denomination, more power to you. The Sufi comprise the mystical branch of Islam which attracts adherents from virtually all subdivisions of the Muslim world, closely akin to Judaism's Kaballah. Again, most scholars identify them as a sect (though references to "cult" are not unusual).

The real point here, however, is your rude, unnecessary, and counterproductive ad hominem attack on both Squeezer personally and American educators in general. I am both a product of the American education system and a teacher within that system. I will match that education against any in the world. Certainly it has its problems and failures, but if it is indeed as poor as you maintain, why does the world line up to attend our colleges and universities?

I have no idea where you are from, but if you are representative of your nation's academics or manners, I'd suggest you "get log ON" the internet and Google Emily Post.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:29 PM on 09/27/2009

Sorry for what mr. Lytton writes to you, Muslim brother, I am an Apostata from catholic church in Argentina. I have some muslim friends here and in Istambul, I feel just like you, and together with them, we only want to work and PEACE. We are activists for Peace. Sorry, i beieve americans, not all, thanks whoever, are so arrogant and they believe they are educated!!! They are part of brain washing practices, long before being practised. (Tavistock institute, London, designed programs inthe 30s.) Bye!!!

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:45 PM on 09/27/2009
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