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Nathaniel Frank

Nathaniel Frank

Posted: November 25, 2009 11:16 AM

Christian Leaders Scapegoat Gays on Marriage

What's Your Reaction?

The most significant thing about the new, anti-gay "Manhattan Declaration" is not that scores of Christians are against gay rights. It's that, recognizing they're on the wrong side of history, they tie themselves in knots insisting they're not anti-gay. And in doing so, they reveal the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of their obsessive persecution of gay people.

The Declaration, released last week and signed by over 150 Christian leaders and social conservatives, identifies abortion, gay marriage, and religious liberty as the three most important issues facing modern Christians, and pleads with both believers and non-believers to stand up against the first two and in defense of the third.

Christians, says the Declaration's preamble, were the ones who rescued abandoned babies in trash heaps in ancient Rome, tended to the sick during the plagues, ended slavery in the West, uplifted the poor, created the conditions for democracy, and ushered in women's suffrage. Their bizarre self-righteousness in claiming the mantle of all the great things that have happened in history makes you wonder if these modern moral crusaders have a pathological need to feel that they are good people, which is usually the first sign that they have reason to worry they are not. (Sure enough, one of the three drafters of the document is Nixon's former special counsel, Chuck Colson, convicted of obstructing justice surrounding the Watergate scandal.)

Claiming the rather quaint authority not only of Holy Scripture but of "natural human reason" and "the very nature of the human person," the signatories proclaim themselves vigilantes called to protect "marriage as a conjugal union of man and woman, ordained by God from the creation, and historically understood by believers and non-believers alike, to be the most basic institution in society."

The drafters seem to go out of their way to present themselves not as garden-variety right-wing hate-mongers but as highly educated Christian rationalists who have mastered the art of hating the sin and loving the sinner. They seem braced for the smarter folks they sometimes encounter in their daily lives to say, "WTF are you talking about -- why are you spending your energy rationalizing your homophobia instead of putting that behind you so you can focus on resolving the far more legitimate concerns you may have about the moral state of modern society?" They insist preemptively that "it is out of love (not 'animus') and prudent concern for the common good (not 'prejudice'), that we pledge to labor ceaselessly to preserve the legal definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman." And they claim they have no choice: "How could we, as Christians, do otherwise? The Bible teaches us that marriage is a central part of God's creation covenant." Funny -- the Bible also teaches that divorce is absolutely prohibited, but there is no movement to take the right to divorce away (just to make it a tad harder). And where's the battle to pass a law requiring that adulterers get stoned to death?

Support for gay marriage, say the signatories, "reflects a loss of understanding of the meaning of marriage," which apparently only Christian conservatives truly know. It would "lock into place the false and destructive belief that marriage is all about romance and other adult satisfactions, and not, in any intrinsic way, about procreation and the unique character and value of acts and relationships whose meaning is shaped by their aptness for the generation, promotion and protection of life."

For decades now, religious moralizers have cast marital heterosexual intercourse as the zenith of virtuous self-sacrifice because it sometimes results in the nifty creation of another human life. I admit this is pretty cool, and I sometimes wish I could do it too. But sexual intercourse is also the epitome of self-indulgence, the embrace of one of the most intense experiences of carnal pleasure of which humans are capable. This pleasure, and the fraught relation we have to it in the Western world, is of course the very reason we've created a purifying religious narrative of redemption -- to tell ourselves that the act that many find dirty, messy, and guilt-inducing is really the highest, noblest, most selfless act there is -- so long as something greater than the sum of its parts comes out of it, something to balance out its highly selfish component. While homosexuals and their allegedly exotic acts of sexual pleasure are cast as the epitome of narcissism, what could be more narcissistic than reproducing yourself -- the only kind of sex that conservative Christians endorse?

So social conservatives hang the privileging of heterosexuality on the assertion that an act which might produce a life can't be all that bad, no matter how fun it might be; and a really fun act which can't produce a life must be either outright bad (gay sex) or merely tolerated (infertile heterosexual sex). Bracing for the retort that any reasoning that allows marriage for infertile straights must also allow marriage for gay couples, the signers of the Declaration are ready with prose that is more horrendous and meaningless than the worst translation of Hegelian philosophy. It deserves to be quoted in its entirety:

Marriage is made possible by the sexual complementarity of man and woman, and the comprehensive, multi-level sharing of life that marriage is includes bodily unity of the sort that unites husband and wife biologically as a reproductive unit. This is because the body is no mere extrinsic instrument of the human person, but truly part of the personal reality of the human being. Human beings are not merely centers of consciousness or emotion, or minds, or spirits, inhabiting non-personal bodies. The human person is a dynamic unity of body, mind, and spirit. Marriage is what one man and one woman establish when, forsaking all others and pledging lifelong commitment, they found a sharing of life at every level of being - the biological, the emotional, the dispositional, the rational, the spiritual - on a commitment that is sealed, completed and actualized by loving sexual intercourse in which the spouses become one flesh, not in some merely metaphorical sense, but by fulfilling together the behavioral conditions of procreation. That is why in the Christian tradition, and historically in Western law, consummated marriages are not dissoluble or annullable on the ground of infertility, even though the nature of the marital relationship is shaped and structured by its intrinsic orientation to the great good of procreation.

The first thing to say about this blather is that it doesn't make any sense. I don't mean it's something that secular rationalists simply don't have the capacity to understand; it's actual nonsense. It doesn't take a pomo-studies major from Brown to point out that the exclusive "complementarity of man and woman" is not an empirical fact but a subjective predilection of those who find satisfaction in male-female intimacy. The fact that the bond can form a procreative unit doesn't make it any more sexually complementary than a same-sex pairing, a fact which society already recognizes by granting marital rights to infertile, post-menopausal, and willingly childless couples. And while we're at it: spouses don't actually become one flesh in intercourse--they can get pretty damned close, but they don't literally meld together. And the idea that straights deserve special rights because they alone fulfill the "behavioral conditions of procreation" is nothing more than a failed attempt to justify heterosexual privilege. It says that, so long as a couple's behavior mimics that which sometimes leads to procreation, i.e. so long as they are straight, they can join the club, even if their actual union is utterly devoid of the procreative result that supposedly justifies any marriage in the first place.

The second thing to say is that what the signers are most likely trying to say here -- that marriage is society's way of honoring and encouraging comprehensive, life-sharing unions that involve spiritual, emotional, sexual, and yes biological complementarity (two lives whose pairing makes life better) -- applies to gay unions too. Indeed, the signatories have utterly failed to explain to rational thinkers why gay marriage should be blocked.

So they slip from holy rhetoric to the purely pragmatic. "Vast human experience," they write, "confirms that marriage is the original and most important institution for sustaining the health, education, and welfare of all persons in a society." Huh? If marriage were the "original and most important" institution for sustaining human beings, we wouldn't be here (what did we do before marriage?). Christianity didn't even declare marriage a sacrament until 1215, largely ignoring it for its first millennium of existence. The Western, nuclear family structure simply is not the only arrangement that ever succeeded at nurturing prosperous human societies, as the rampant polygamy in the bible and throughout much of the world today reminds us.

Finally, there's the circular reasoning of the signers' lame attempt to show "genuine social harm" that allegedly results from any alternatives to straight-only marriage. Alternatives to traditional marriage harm religious freedom by upsetting those whose religion, well, opposes alternatives to traditional marriage; they "abuse the rights of parents" because they lead to teaching things that some parents don't want taught; and they undercut civil society by allowing the law's "pedagogical function" to become a tool for eroding the traditional understanding of marriage on which civil society rests. They could just as well have said that female suffrage -- which the signers boasted of supporting a century ago -- is bad for society because it will lead to teaching that female suffrage is good for society; or racial integration is bad because it will prompt people to say it is good. If this is the best you've got, you'd be wise to stick to "the Bible tells me so."

The bankruptcy of the anti-gay marriage crowd's arguments is best revealed by their use of the old slippery slope chimera, echoed this week by Mike Huckabee: Once you change the meaning of marriage to include gays, why not groups, siblings, children, and maybe sheep? Any alternative to heterosexual marriage, says the Declaration, "could be asserted with equal validity for polyamorous partnerships, polygamous households, even adult brothers, sisters, or brothers and sisters living in incestuous relationships. Should these, as a matter of equality or civil rights, be recognized as lawful marriages?"


Here's what's going on here: Religious opponents of gay marriage don't have a good understanding of why a modern state should recognize civil marriage in the first place; they view marriage primarily as a religious tradition that has made their lives satisfying and secure and so they are most comfortable justifying it in terms of what's been -- this is one of the roles of a religious narrative. If they thought honestly and rigorously about the civil, rather than just religious, reasons why the state recognizes marriage today, they'd see that gay unions fit into those reasons in the modern world. But, vaguely to ardently anti-gay, they can only view gay rights as a symbol of "anything goes" hedonism. Some purposely deploy the "slippery slope" tactic to try to win the argument. But many others are simply not willing or able to think that maybe there are actual reasons why gay marriage makes rational sense while group and incestuous marriages don't. So to paraphrase a recent presidential candidate, they cling to gays and God to defend a way of life that's familiar.

Only if you don't have a good reason for defending the existence of marriage would you be this insecure about sharing it. When your only defense of the status quo is to suggest it's always been this way and any change will ruin it, you know you're out of reasons to defend the status quo.

So let me give the defense-of-marriage crowd a few good reasons to defend marriage that don't rely on sectarianism: it can provide a stable place to raise kids, if you have them; it channels the boisterous, undirected energy of young singles into unthreatening domestic bonds; it encourages individuals to take care of each other so the state won't have to; and it helps society recognize and enforce the caretaking commitments people have made to one another. All these functions gay couples can share in.

Says the Declaration: "Just as Christ was willing, out of love, to give Himself up for the church in a complete sacrifice, we are willing, lovingly, to make whatever sacrifices are required of us for the sake of the inestimable treasure that is marriage." This is great news. If you're really interested in sacrificing for marriage, stop opposing the righteous tide of history, speak out for the honest reasons that marriage matters for all of us, and quit leaning on the superficial gratification of heterosexual privilege to make yourself feel more Godly.

 
 
 
 
 
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06:28 PM on 01/04/2010
I am so tired of the Christian right and their 'declarations" on gay marriage. Whatever happened to separation of state and church? Why are they so afraid? And why do they think everyone wants a "christian marriage?" I'm proud to be the mother of a young, brilliant gay son who wants to marry someday. For him, and us, we want a civil marriage. A marriage that is conducted and enforced by the state NOT the church. Right-wing religious fanatics, in whatever cover or disguise, are afraid of a changing world that is moving towards accepting civil gay marriages. Do I need to name all the cities and countries that support gay marriages? Beginning with Mexico City, the bastion of catholicism. Why can't they think out of their small box of homophobia and prejudice and let gay, lesbian, and transgender individuals enjoy the right to civil marriage and family? A right that the rest of us take for granted.
03:33 PM on 12/06/2009
I never thought of procreation as being narcissistic, but in reality, it really is. Especially, if you think there is a threat of overpopulation. Excellent argument.

I think that the best argument is the one he makes toward the end to the effect of saying that Christians and others who oppose gay marriage on religious grounds are implacably hostile to the state. Most commonly, they omit any mention of the state's role in sanctifying marriage contracts (drafting contracts, etc.). The same people also seem to think that free exercise is the only relevant part of the 1st amendment as evidenced in their hostility to efforts to remove the ten commandments from courthouses and other public centers. Apparently, freedom of religion is only a one-way street to these people. News flash, the state has a role in ensuring that shifting beliefs on morality do not infect the body politic because one of the first and most important components of any legal system is a form of stability that allows people to live their lives in accordance with the law.
11:50 AM on 12/06/2009
"Christians, says the Declaration's preamble, were the ones who rescued abandoned babies in trash heaps in ancient Rome, tended to the sick during the plagues, ended slavery in the West, uplifted the poor, created the conditions for democracy, and ushered in women's suffrage." I am amazed by large groups of Christians who believe they have a monopoly on goodness. Same with any organized religion, I guess. Scary.

The longer an agency is around (read: organized religion), the longer the natural tendency for both good and bad stuff to manifest. Especially when that agency has hundreds of thousands, even millions (over time) of members. Christianity is no different. Christian abolitionists were fighting against slavery at the very same time Christian slave-owners were using the bible to justify their stance. The problem with organized religions is this: "Well, he's not a real Christian. Jesus wouldn't condone the ownsership of slaves." The ability to dismiss the opinions or behavior of your own church members as "unChrist-like" does not absolve the entire organization of what a few or many of it's professors are doing. Stand up, you who call yourselves "true Christians" and save your own organization.

go here: www.faithinamerica.com
Help fight the harm caused by religious bigotry.
09:12 AM on 12/02/2009
Geesseee!!! I'm stuck at "Christian Rationalist". Seems like a oxymoron to me.

1. the principle or habit of accepting reason as the supreme authority in matters of opinion, belief, or conduct.
2. Philosophy.
a. the doctrine that reason alone is a source of knowledge and is independent of experience.
b. (in the philosophies of Descartes, Spinoza, etc.) the doctrine that all knowledge is expressible in self-evident propositions or their consequences.
3. Theology. the doctrine that human reason, unaided by divine revelation, is an adequate or the sole guide to all attainable religious truth.

I read about this the other day and I also read an article about Focus on the Family's website fighting retailers who don't "endorse Christmas". http://standforchristmas.com/

I am so done with "Christianity" and it's hypocracy. We are in America. A country filled with folks from all around the world. I thought we had something called freedom of religion. These people want everyone to conform to what THEY BELIEVE. They want us ALL TO BELIEVE what they understand to be truth. Gay marriage is fine with me. Happy Holidays is fine too. I am so sick of people, many hypocrits, talking this big talk but when youu look closer, they certainly don't walk the walk. I've watched it all my life. People are who they are. People believe what they believe. STOP TRYING TO CONTROL because you will never ever succeed.

God's in control, right?
09:07 PM on 12/01/2009
"The most significant thing about the new, anti-gay "Manhattan Declaration" is not that scores of Christians are against gay rights. It's that, recognizing they're on the wrong side of history, they tie themselves in knots insisting they're not anti-gay. And in doing so, they reveal the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of their obsessive persecution of gay people."

Oh please. If Blacks were calling for them to pay less taxes than whites, and said it was a civil right, would the people who oppose it be against black rights? NO. Quit being silly. They don't want the definition of marriage changed. PERIOD.
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DMSmith
12:57 AM on 12/05/2009
And why would THAT be? (try to answer without using religion).
NOTE: The statement, often made, that marriage has ALWAYS been between one man and one woman is a lie. Flat out a lie.
Read history - including the period of time (close to a thousand years) when two men or two women could be joined by the church and IN the church, but mixed sex unions were only allowed outside the church since they were unions of two families for the combining of wealth - and not for love.
In addition, we have separation of church and state meaning that religious reasons for civill laws are not adequate. Note that you cannot get married in a church without FIRST showing a marriage certificate issued by the local government. Marriage is not a religious matter. It's civil. Period.
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ninthraphael
i have my god! He/she doesn't look like yours!
01:14 PM on 12/01/2009
procreation as the essence of marriage? why do they punish incest and rape if procreation is the center of humaness? why do infertile people need to stay married? do these zealots never enjoyed sex that they don't want other people not to enjoy it too?
09:30 PM on 12/01/2009
Even if that was a legitimate bit of hypocrisy, it still does nothing to promote the claim of gay marriage. Implicitly saying that you want to game the system in the same way other couples do isn't very persuasive.
11:07 AM on 12/03/2009
Yes it does. Having children is not required of married couples. If marriage was about children the everyone who is married for two yrs without getting pregnant should automatically get divorced. And those incapable of having babies would not be allowed to get married in the first place.
Marriage is about LOVE, not babies.
It is about equality.
Heterosexuals can marry the person they love, why deny that to homosexuals??
04:40 PM on 11/30/2009
Divorce is not "absolutely prohibited" in the bible. Provision was made for divorce from early on, the NT objection is not that divorce was prohibited, it was not God's original intent and has consequences.
09:07 PM on 12/01/2009
Exactly.
11:57 AM on 11/30/2009
How many of you know that charging interest by financial institutions is banned by Islam? (Mohammed found money lenders charging exhorbitant amounts to starving families and deemed interest "usary". Funny - he may have been right! What do we call increasing interest rates to 30% for those out of work and least able to pay in our America of today? But I digress). So how does Islamic banking work? Answer: Find another word for interest!

In the same way the solution to this mess is obvious. I think the bible bashers should find another word for their kind of marriage. Call it Godarriage or something! That way there is a strictly religious form of marriage for those who want it and another form for all the rest of us. Only the most holy and devout can be Godarriged while the rest of us sinners are left with simple marriage which is thus relieved of its need to be for procreation only and can include same sex..
04:34 AM on 11/30/2009
Mr. Frank,

The debate is over.

Americans are not interested in approving "Gay Marriage".
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aftershock
10:03 AM on 11/30/2009
"Americans are not interested in approving "Gay Marriage"."

Nor were they in approving interracial marriage, but it was still made legal. Sorry, this is NOT something you will have a final say in.
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Aimleft
02:48 PM on 11/30/2009
And thank goodness for that. SonofLiberty my left foot. Your attitude is the absolute antithesis of anything remotely resembling liberty.
09:10 PM on 12/01/2009
Yeah, but see, there was no massive social movement to approve of interracial marriage. It was denied based on criminal statutes, and in most places was legal waaay before the SCOTUS overturned anti-miscegenation laws in 1967. There really is no comparison.

It was still marriage the way we've always understood it. Marriage being racially pure was the belief of some, not most, and not all.
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StevenKeirstead
Photographer and Biologist who happens to be gay.
06:30 PM on 12/01/2009
The debate’s barely begun, and it’ll not be over until we are all treated equally under the law. Every day more and more young people err realizing Nathaniel Frank is right and that there are no rational reasons to oppose same sex marriage, none that survive honest, logical scrutiny. Every day the older folks who have no real commission for gay folks die off. Demographics are on the side of equal rights for equal loves.

My love for my husband is not wrong, and shame be upon those who think evil of it!
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plainslady
03:45 PM on 11/29/2009
I see your points, but must they even be made? These people aren't discussing whether homosexuality is a sin. They are claiming it is one of the THREE worst threats in the world. One of the 3 worst things that can happen! The Top THREE! My God, if only it WERE in the top 3, and replaced one of the truly terrible problems of humanity. Think how much less suffering there would be! Don't worry about the poor, as Jesus did; The gays will always be with us!
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StevenKeirstead
Photographer and Biologist who happens to be gay.
06:53 PM on 12/01/2009
I know, what about poverty, terroristic religious fanaticism, poor education? Are these not astronomically bigger problems than gay love (which is only a problem of their warped perception)? Really!

One of the biggest problems is their contempt for science when it challenges fundamentalists’ beliefs. They won’t accept peer reviewed scientific studies that indicate homosexuality is a natural variation of human sexuality, that gays can be happy, that lesbians can be good parents. Many of them can’t accept the overwhelming biological, paleontological and geological evidence the earth is 3.4 billion years old and that modern life evolved from different forms of life that existed before us and was mostly very different from life on the planet now. Heck, Carbon dating shows the earth is far older than the Bible says it is, as it can be used to date organic specimens in the 50,000 year old range before the measuring systems we have can no longer detect Carbon 14’s radiation. I’m surprised they attack “Darwinism” in the declaration.

Yes it is OK for them to scoff at inconvenient science, but fundamentalists are happy to rely on science when they get sick, drive to work or type on a computer. Most don’t even realize one of the fathers of the digital computer was Alan Turing, a gay man who was persecuted by the British court system (after he made the mistake of telling a police officer he had had homosexual relations with a young man who had subsequently burgled Turing’s house).
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StevenKeirstead
Photographer and Biologist who happens to be gay.
07:29 PM on 12/01/2009
Oops, I meant to write "I’m surprised they DIDN’T attack “Darwinism” in the declaration."
04:55 AM on 12/05/2009
Oh, I love that idea. Tell fundamentalists they can't use medicine or computers anymore, and the like. Especially medicine. Besides, demons are what really make us sick, and if you spit on someone there is a chance if you are faithful enough they shall be cured.

However, I know this will never happen, fundamentalists are avid cherry pickers.
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StevenKeirstead
Photographer and Biologist who happens to be gay.
06:53 PM on 12/01/2009
I wish people would realize the power of doubt, which has actually done a lot of good. Doubt is the foundation of science and of our justice system. Faith can sometimes be very dangerous and lead to things like the Crusades, the 100 Years War, the 9/11 attacks, as well as the oppression of homosexuals which is only now beginning to abate in Western Civilization. Thank goodness they are not burning us at the stake or hanging us from the yardarm now, but that alone hardly constitutes equality!
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12:37 AM on 11/29/2009
It's obvious just from this one blog that religion was created because humans hate more than they love. Why else would we have created a god and religion that champions love. And obviously the human race still has a long way to go.
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12:42 AM on 11/29/2009
have you ever considered life outside of the United States?
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02:00 AM on 11/29/2009
Thank you, you just proved my point.
09:57 PM on 11/28/2009
So many Christians have never gotten the command of Jesus to "Hate the sin, but LOVE THE SINNER. philzepp
01:25 AM on 11/30/2009
He said that right after he endorsed capitalism, right?
10:54 AM on 12/01/2009
"Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own?"

- from Jesus parable in Matthew 20, in which he uses a landowner's rights over his own property as an illustration of God's sovereignty.
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JohnBisceglia
09:42 PM on 11/28/2009
Maybe Saint Peter wouldn't have been stoned to death if he wasn't trying to FORCE his religion down other people's throats. Hmmm?
08:05 AM on 11/29/2009
Too many Sopranos marathons? Luckily, our founders didn't share your macho issues.
01:26 AM on 11/30/2009
Thomas Jefferson HATED Christianity.

Skipped History a lot, did you?
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aftershock
10:04 AM on 11/30/2009
Lol, you'd scream blasphemy if you read half what our founders wrote. They found organized religion to be a hindrance to freedom.
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plainslady
04:51 PM on 11/28/2009
Really?! Gay marriage takes precedence over hunger, death penalty, prostitution, torture, war profiteering, spousal and child abuse, rape, secret lawless U.S. prisons in Afganistan, poor or no healthcare, polluted or lack of drinking water, no access to education? My God, the list goes on and on! REALLY?! Just so the rest of you don't get the wrong idea, these people DO NOT represent all or even a majority of Christians. They get press due to the strangeness of their conclusions. I am a devout catholic and it would never even occur to me to be at mass to protect the world from gay marriage. How lucky we'd be if that was one of the three "worst" problems of the world! If that "problem" could be traded for one of the real tragedies listed above, we'd have a much safer world. Protect the dignity of Christ, and the dignity of human life-across the board. Use the sense God gave you, for heaven's sake. It is an insult to all suffering people and to Christ to put obessions about gay people over the real needs of Christ and humanity. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I hope I'm never in trouble and have to rely on one of these people. They may be so mired in their compulsive reactions to gay people that they can see need when it knocks on their door. Shame!
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brt929
07:21 PM on 11/29/2009
Except I think they are suggesting that child abuse, rape, secret lawless U.S. prisons in Afghanistan, poor or no healthcare, polluted or lack of drinking water, no access to education are ALL attributable to a) abortions b) gay marriage and c) lack of religious liberty.

Do away with those three things, and all those other things will take care of themselves as the "real" Christians, the Reformation Third Wave, pillage the middle class in this country.
05:01 AM on 12/05/2009
Yes, I think gay banditos secretly pollute are waters and train criminals, and also possess advanced mind control technology the likes of which only the secret police (which we control) has seen.

Personally, I feel like stopping abortion would increase a lot of those things wouldn't it? At least child abuse...
01:21 PM on 11/28/2009
I believe the writer is correct in asserting that the tide of history is on the side of gay marriage. It will probably happen within ten or twenty years. However he, like many liberals, confuse the teachings of the old and new testaments. Even if homosexuality were never mentioned in the old testament, there are plenty of injunctions against it in the new testament. Mr Frank and those who share his beliefs are, of course, under no obligation to adhere to religious beliefs that they openly reject. The time is coming when America will go the way of Europe in permitting gay marriage. And it will probably follow Europe's example in moving chrisitan faith further and further from the center of national life. Mr Frank and his allies will no doubt celebrate such a drift, but some of us aren't so sure about it.
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01:48 PM on 11/28/2009
Plenty of injunctions against it in the New Testament? Not quite. Paul in one letter goes into a frothing rant (doth he protest too much?) against what seem to be homosexuals (scholars disagree about the sense of many of the vulgar terms he uses) describing them in such a lurid and hate-filled way that it would make any modern gay-hater blanch. How "saintly" of him. Far more importantly, though, Jesus never bothered to utter a single sentence in condemnation of same-sex love and attraction. Did He, the very Word of God in the Christian view, just forget to utter a word about what so many of his modern day followers have come to regard as the sin of all sins? Did the Son of God mess up? Or maybe, just maybe, He didn't regard it as terribly important.
07:38 PM on 11/28/2009
Peter and other apostles did not share your snide characterization of Paul, but viewed him as an apostle of Christ.

As for Jesus not mentioning same-sex practices -- it is entirely misguided to attach such great "importance" to this. Jesus didn't specifically condemn incest or bestiality, which are condemned literally right alongside homosexual practices in Leviticus, but this hardly means that He would not have regarded these things as serious sins. The most reasonable explanation for him not mentioning such things was the absence of any significant campaign among the people to whom He was ministering to approve of them.
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plainslady
12:44 AM on 11/29/2009
I see your points, but must they even be made? These people aren't discussing whether homosexuality is a sin. They are claiming it is one of the THREE worst threats in the world. One of the 3 worst things that can happen! The Top THREE! My God, if only it were in the top 3, and replaced one of the truly terrible problems of humanity. Think how much less suffering there would be! Don't worry about the poor, as Jesus did; The gays will always be with us!
11:57 AM on 11/29/2009
Your selective capitalization is fascinating. Some proper nouns, you capitalize. Others (all relating to Christianity), you don't. Gosh, do I detect a pattern?

To second what JohnJames wrote, no, there aren't plenty of injunctions against h. in the New Testament. And Christ's gospel was one of inclusive love. Those of us who follow Christ (as a Christian--capital C--is supposed to) subscribe to no gospel of hate. Those who do have grossly misunderstood Christ's central command to us.

Re the crack about moving "christian faith" further from the center of national life, it's in no such place. Not even remotely. Otherwise, name our state church. Name the dominant branch and/or denomination. Religion rules nothing. After eight years of alleged pandering to conservative C. by President Cheney, abortion is still legal, the First Amendment remains in place, prayer is still not allowed in public school, and secularists do their annual carrying on about any official acknowledgment of our culture's central holiday. If religion ever were to occupy the "center of national life" in our country, you'd have no idea where you were. Frankly, I don't know which brand of hysteria is less logical--the standard secular swipes at faith (in a democracy designed to nurture religion, no less) or the conservative gripes about Christ being kept out of Dec. 25 and such.

The rest of us understand that our democracy has room for both the sacred and the secular. I guess we paid attention in school.
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brt929
07:37 PM on 11/29/2009
".....standard secular swipes at faith (in a democracy designed to nurture religion, no less)..."

Nurture religion? Hardly.

The point was to remain neutral- so not one religion dominated. To imply that the intent was to "nurture" is completely specious.
11:49 AM on 11/30/2009
I lived for several years in a Middle East country nominally under Sharia law. Except that it was no more based on Islamic faith than we have our laws based on Christian faith. Sure there are some laws that stem completely from Islam (such as nobody is allowed to eat or drink in public during Ramadan) but it is a far cry from enfocing everything a devout Muslim would want.

It is not a crime to "dress inappropriately", even if to do so in public would cause no end of social problems.
It is not a crime to refuse to pray 5 times a day, even though that is required of devout Muslims.
It is not a crime to eat or drink privately in your own house during Ramadan, even though that is against the teachings of Islam.

So yes, there are many things (including drinking of alcohol of course) that are outlawed due to religion but even in an extreme, intolerant, religious country the laws of the land are far from totally religion controlled.

In no way is any Western country even close to being dominated by Christianity - and a good thing too!