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Nathaniel Frank

Nathaniel Frank

Posted: October 20, 2009 03:40 PM

Refuting the Latest Arguments Against Gay Troops

What's Your Reaction?

In a recent Weekly Standard article, James Bowman argues that the U.S. should not lift the ban on openly gay service in the military because it would undercut notions of masculine honor that ensure combat motivation and cohesion. Bowman is a scholar at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, whose mission is "to clarify and reinforce the bond between the Judeo-Christian moral tradition and the public debate over domestic and foreign policy issues." While defenses of the military's gay ban have long been rooted in the moral belief that homosexuality is wrong, many of its champions have recognized that morality alone may be an insufficient tool to persuade the nation to maintain an anti-gay policy. As a result, they have cast their defense of the policy in terms of the famous "unit cohesion" rationale, which says that, whatever you or I might think of homosexuality, our troops will not be able to serve with known gays or lesbians, who must therefore be excluded to preserve unit cohesion.

Below is a point-by-point refutation of Bowman's article, which is marred by errors and assumptions that do not serve to forward the debate over service by open gays and lesbians. You can also listen to a debate between me and Bowman on NPR. To summarize my critique: Bowman's argument is a theory, not based on any evidence, that relies on several assumptions: that what motivates 18-year-olds in 21st-century America to fight wars is a particular conception of honor; that that honor is defined by having an exclusively male, heterosexual identity; and by the further belief that a straight man's honor relies on not having gay peers. This is a conception of honor which harks back to the pre-WWI era and which even Bowman acknowledges was rejected by American culture following that era and has not been revived since, despite the best efforts of social and military conservatives. Yet when you turn to actual research on combat motivation, you find that the most important factor motivating combat in the modern age is not honor, but peers: you do it for your buddy. And saying to a peer, "I'm going to be sharing a foxhole with you, I need to trust you, so lie to me about who you really are," is not a recipe for honor or cohesion. Honor and masculinity may play a role in military bonding, but neither one, in the year 2009, is tethered to heterosexuality or homophobia as they may have been in days gone by. Above all, Bowman's theory is belied by reality on the ground: the existence of straights and known gays fighting effectively together throughout not only twenty-five foreign militaries but our own U.S. armed forces, where two thirds of troops know or suspect gays in their units. And by the way: there is plenty of honor among women in the military, who have been motivated enough to go into harm's way since 2001 like no time in our history, and have racked up hundreds of casualties as badges of their honor.


POINT-BY-POINT REBUTTAL:

BOWMAN: "Actually, there is no 'don't ask, don't tell' law."

RESPONSE: A recent talking point from opponents of openly gay service has it that the statute passed by Congress never endorsed "don't ask, don't tell." Instead, conservatives claim, the law says homosexuals are "ineligible" to serve, whether open or not. This is false. The law (10 U.SC. § 654) recommends that the military cease asking recruits if they are gay, hence "don't ask." And as Bowman himself writes, the law says that "the presence in the armed forces of persons who demonstrate a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts" (emphasis added) creates an unacceptable risk to the military. This is the "don't tell" prong; it doesn't say that any homosexual creates that risk, only those who "demonstrate" their homosexuality, i.e. tell. And the law clearly stipulates dismissal only if one's homosexual acts or orientation becomes known.


BOWMAN: "'Don't ask, don't tell' is of course the name given to the executive order by Bill Clinton which was designed at once to implement and to circumvent this law."

RESPONSE: There was no executive order. President Clinton promised to sign one but never did. Instead the Pentagon developed, in a compromise with the political leadership, a policy that Defense Secretary Les Aspin called "don't ask, don't tell" that said sexual orientation was a private matter and would not be a bar to military service. However, the policy was announced in July 1993, before the law was passed that November, so it couldn't have been designed to, as Bowman charges, "circumvent this law."


BOWMAN: "An executive order from [the President] allowing homosexuals equal status in the military would be in defiance of the law as written by Congress."

RESPONSE: This is false. In passing a 1983 law that is still in effect, 10 U.S.C. § 12305 ("Authority of the President to Suspend Certain Laws Relating to Promotion, Retirement, and Separation"), Congress granted the president authority to halt military separations, "notwithstanding any other provision of law," which includes the section of U.S. statute governing gays in the military. It reads: "The President may suspend any provision of law relating to promotion, retirement, or separation applicable to any member of the armed forces who the President determines is essential to the national security of the United States."


BOWMAN: "The left has nothing better to offer than riding roughshod over the opinions of the majority of servicemen--58 percent in the latest Military Times poll--and repealing the law. The same poll found that 10 percent of respondents would leave the service if gays were allowed openly to serve and another 14 percent would consider leaving. We have at least to take seriously the possibility that this would be the price of treating military service as a human right."

RESPONSE: There are two problems with the use of polling to defend military policy. First, the military simply does not poll its enlisted personnel to set policy. There was no poll asking 18-year-old enlisted men whether they felt like invading Iraq. This doesn't mean the sentiments of those who fight our wars don't matter; they do. But activists tend to cite such polls only when they seem to support their pre-existing position. And if America had based the decision to end racial segregation in the military on polls, we would just now be getting around to ending that scourge on our nation's history.

Second, these polls are both unscientific and off-topic. They were not based on a representative sampling but on subscribers to a military journal. More important, much larger percentages of respondents also swore they would leave the military in Britain and Canada when they were polled prior to lifting their bans, but when the bans were ended anyway, almost no one left. This is because polls measure attitudes, but don't predict behavior, especially when there are institutional pressures to respond to such a poll in a way that toes a party line. For all these reasons, it would be disingenuous for a serious policy analyst to take this poll "seriously" as a likely indicator of a mass exodus from the military.


BOWMAN: "There are all kinds of people -- the very young and the very old, the sick or disabled, violent criminals or, in combat roles, women -- whom we regard as unfit to be soldiers. The fact that open homosexuals are also excluded cannot by itself be considered an injustice."

RESPONSE: Of course we have standards in the military, and those who are unfit are excluded. What's at issue is whether homosexuals are unfit, just by virtue of being gay or lesbian. Even the military's own studies have found no evidence ever impugning the suitability of homosexuals for military service. And the "unit cohesion" rationale, which states that gays can be good soldiers but the negative attitudes of their peers requires that open homosexuality be banned, has also never been rooted in empirical evidence. Without a compelling rationale for exclusion, such exclusion is considered by most to be unjust.

In addition, the military routinely waives exclusions even if it means lowering its standards. Violent criminals are excluded from the military, except when they're not: As the Iraq War wore on and recruitment slots became harder to fill, the number of felony waivers granted by the Army more than doubled in three years, reaching to more than 900 in 2006, according to the Pentagon. These included aggravated assault, burglary, robbery and vehicular homicide, and in at least one case, "making terrorist threats." Between 2003 and 2006, over 100,000 criminals were allowed to serve in uniform, over 4,000 of them felons.


BOWMAN: "If reason were to be readmitted to the debate, we might find something in the history of military honor to justify the principle now enshrined in the law decreeing that 'homosexuality is incompatible with military service.' We know that soldiering... is inextricably bound up with ideas of masculinity... 'Being a man' typically does mean for soldiers both being brave, stoic, etc.--and being heterosexual.... [and] includes the honor of being known for heterosexuality."

RESPONSE: First, the law nowhere says that "homosexuality is incompatible with military service." This was an error repeated by the late Charles Moskos, who is credited as an architect of "don't ask, don't tell" (perhaps referring to rhetoric from Congressional hearings) but the phrase does not appear in the law.

Secondly, there is enormous research on what motivates soldiers to fight and the single most important factor is one's peers. Traditional concepts of honor and understandings of masculinity can figure into these motivations, but there is simply no research showing that soldiers must believe that their ranks are free from homosexuals in order to maintain the motivation to fight. In addition to the twenty-five foreign militaries that now allow gays to serve openly, the best evidence that openly gay service works comes from the U.S. military, where two thirds of service members know or suspect gays in their units, and three quarters say they are "personally comfortable" around gays. In addition, there have been hundreds of female casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, where women fight on the front lines of these guerilla wars, where combat and "non-combat" are increasingly blurred, as gunners, drivers, and truck commanders, performing bomb disposal, counterintelligence and more. Masculine honor cannot explain the combat motivations of women, yet they fight and die for their country.


BOWMAN: "This is not, of course, to say that homosexuals are weak or cowardly -- only that the reputation of manliness, which we know to be an important component of military honor, is in practice incompatible with the imputation either of homosexuality or of weakness and cowardice."

RESPONSE: Research suggests that many people believe that others are more homophobic than they are. The debate over gay service has often been characterized by the "imaginary friend" trick where opponents of gay service claim they have no problem with gay people, but everyone else will. While military honor is an important part of military culture, concepts of honor are not stagnant, and the presence of known gays in our current military, where straight peers report high morale and cohesion, is testament to the changing conceptualization of honor in 21st-century America.


BOWMAN: "What if [proponents of lifting the ban] are wrong? Is there any way to find out without taking a real risk with national security? Are the advocates of gays in the military prepared to say, fiat justitia, ruat caelum ['Let justice be done, though the sky may fall']? And if so, do the rest of us, the majority of gays and straights alike who would prefer not to take such a risk with our lives, property, and freedom, have any say in the matter?"

RESPONSE: It is incorrect to suggest that the majority of Americans prefer not to risk the consequences of repeal, when polls consistently show that 70-80% of Americans favor repeal. As for the question of whether Americans who are concerned about their lives, property and freedom have a "say" in the question of whether to let open gays serve, the numerous polls routinely asking respondents about their opinion on this issue show that they do have a say.

More to the point, this argument is made despite the fact that no evidence has ever shown that gay service creates a greater risk in the military than straight service. Even if it was a substantial risk, the military takes risks every day. Indeed, war fighting is all about risk assessment and management. Only when it comes to gays and lesbians, is a line drawn in the sand, with a declaration that no risks are allowed. Yet, a 2008 report by a bi-partisan panel of retired flag and general officers concluded that the "Evidence shows that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly is unlikely to pose any significant risk to morale, good order, discipline, or cohesion." The panel further found that the "unacceptable risk" phrase in the current law was put in without consulting research and that if that risk did exist 16 years ago, there is reason to believe it no longer does: "In 1993, the finding of 'unacceptable risk' was based on the views of currently serving service members and military leaders, and on the experiences of foreign militaries. However, the group was not able to find any evidence to suggest that the finding of unacceptable risk remains valid."


BOWMAN: "[Gays in the military] are unwilling to make the presumably lesser sacrifice of being publicly reticent about their sexual behavior -- or the sacrifice of not being in the military."

RESPONSE: Hundreds of American troops have been discharged under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy despite their reticence about their private lives, based on third parties, monitored emails, tapped phone calls, sexual harassment, etc. In addition, the policy does not simply require reticence about "sexual behavior" but about identity -- defined as having a "propensity or intent" to engage in homosexual acts. In addition, the "presumably lesser sacrifice" of reticence or of staying out of uniform has high costs both to individuals and national security: troops who can't speak openly to chaplains, psychologists, and doctors because of forced "reticence" cannot access the support services that straights rely on for mental and physical health, readiness, and morale; and the thousands of Americans who are fired or barred from service due to the policy have contributed to grave shortfalls in Arabic linguists, military police, and scores of other badly-needed specialists to fight our wars.


BOWMAN: "In fact, we do not know and we cannot know what our armed forces would be like under such conditions."

RESPONSE: "Such conditions," which refer to openly gay service, already exist in the U.S. military (as mentioned above, two thirds of troops know or suspect gays in their units), and so we absolutely know what happens under such conditions: nothing. It is naĂŻve to interpret current military policy and U.S. law barring known homosexuals to mean that there actually are not known gays in uniform. The evidence of known gays being sent to war is enormous and comes from numerous unconnected sources ranging from the Wall Street Journal to the Congressional Research Service.


BOWMAN: "The advocates of allowing open homosexuals to serve often cite the example of Israel or Britain, both of which have integrated homosexuals into their military services apparently without incident. But they have done so in circumstances which do not allow for any objective assessment of the success or failure of the experiment... In Britain, the change came about in response to an order from the European Court of Human Rights, whose decrees have the force of law. For this reason, it would not be in the interest of any officer who valued his career prospects to remark upon any problems that the presence of gay soldiers, sailors, or airmen might be causing in their armed forces. Nor has the performance of the British Army in Iraq or the Royal Navy in the Persian Gulf been such as to render all suspicion of damage to morale, good order, and discipline ridiculous."

RESPONSE: Numerous objective assessments have been performed of many of the twenty-five nations that now let gay troops serve openly. In several cases, the British government assessed the transitions in evaluations that were not meant for public consumption but were requested by the Ministry of Defence for its own operational needs, hence ensuring an honest assessment rather than a public relations stunt. Only when leaked to the press were the conclusions--that openly gay service was an unbridled success -- made public. The idea that no military officer can honestly evaluate standing law or policy is absurd, and is belied by the recent publication in Joint Force Quarterly of a report by an active duty Air Force colonel calling for repeal of "don't ask, don't tell." The above reasoning that raises suspicion about the results of openly gay service in Britain must raise the same suspicion about America's current gay ban: If the imperfect performance of the British military in Iraq and the Persian Gulf casts doubt on the merit of openly gay service, then the failure of the U.S. to prevail in Afghanistan casts the same doubt on our current policy of banning open gays.


BOWMAN: "The robust heterosexual... knows, or believes, what it seems the homosexual cannot know or believe, or doesn't want to know or believe, namely that the two sorts of love [brotherly and erotic] are different in kind and not just in degree. The resistance from military men to the idea of gays in the military seems to be due to this perception... Eros is so strong that it corrupts and destroys the other kinds of love."

RESPONSE: Putting aside the question of what makes a heterosexual "robust," the idea that all gay people refuse to distinguish between brotherly and erotic love is simply bizarre. More to the point, the idea that open gays must be banned from the military because erotic love destroys military friendships is belied by the millions of healthy bonds in both the U.S. and foreign militaries that have open gays throughout their ranks.


BOWMAN: "The more than 1,100 flag and general officers who recently declared their support for the existing law were motivated, as they claim, by genuine concern for national security and not by bigotry."

RESPONSE: It is impossible to know the motives of those 1100 officers, but a few facts are known about this group: first, according to a PBS inquiry, not all of those who appear on the list gave their permission to be used as signatories, and several are dead; second, the majority of the officers have not served in the military this century and never served under the current "don't ask, don't tell" policy; third the list was compiled by a political organization that was found in a leaked email to be searching for "gay horror stories" in the military to help make its case against gays in uniform, even though its president acknowledged such stories would be "very difficult to find."

It is not news that there are thousands of Americans with prior military service who oppose homosexuality in the military; but the above petition is not based on evaluating any new research or information, whereas over 100 flag officers, including two former Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, have now called for repeal based on assessing extensive evidence showing that openly gay service works.

 
 
 
 
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02:05 AM on 10/22/2009
So, basically, Bowman's article is a lot of inflated verbiage pretending authority to justify retaining a law that makes him feel comfortable.

Why am I not surprised?
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03:43 PM on 10/21/2009
Where are the men condemning Brown for the obscene notion that male honor consists of anti-gay bigotry?

Anyone of any gender who regards honor as consisting in whole or in part of oppression of a minority has no honor.
01:59 PM on 10/21/2009
I don't understand why anti-repeal people keep claiming that our military is so unprofessional, and incapable of being decent human beings, that lifting the ban would lead to a mass exodus of troops and unprecedented gay bashing. I highly doubt many enlisted men and women give two $h!t$ about the orientation of any of their peers. There are many bigots in the military for sure, but the majority of the military is made up of bigots? This "unit cohesion" talk is so baseless. The military is to follow orders, not dictate policy. That's why we're a democracy (where civilians are in charge), not a junta (where military brass is in charge). I'm sick of people saying we should leave it up to the military to decide. The military is employed by the American people, not the other way around. The national law applies to the military as well. Yes, the federal government trumps the UCMJ.
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DannyEV
10:14 AM on 10/25/2009
fact is that the generation of kids currently serving, for the most part, have left homophobic attitudes on the dustbin of history. They really don't care---and, btw, they also really don't understand what the problem with gay marriage is either.

Bowman's speaking for kids whose psyche he totally does not comprehend.
12:40 PM on 10/21/2009
The Weekly Standard?!! Otherwise known as Chickenhawk Monthly? There may be a few people at that publication that had the stones to serve in the military, but not many. Hasn't stopped them from opining regulary about what the military wants though, has it? Who cares about what these ridiculous people, (who are wrong about EVERYTHING in the reality based world, anyway...) think about anything at all?
11:29 AM on 10/21/2009
Dear Nathaniel, Sorry, but bloggers who have not served in combat should leave the discussion of unit cohesion to others. Unit cohesion sounds so military-speak, but all it means is willingness to charge a machine gun nest to save the men next to you. Let those who have served under such conditions run the show on this debate.
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paisleyface
if we're not gonna have sex, get off my back
11:50 AM on 10/21/2009
How about we let their bosses, the American citizen, run the debate, eh?
02:02 PM on 10/21/2009
People with his attitude don't understand the type of government we have. Civilians run this country, and they can't stand it.
12:42 PM on 10/21/2009
Well, if only people who have served in the military get the privilege of having an opinion on the subject, then that leaves out almost everyone at the Weekly Standard, doesn't it?
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09:40 AM on 10/21/2009
Typical Obama, all talk no action. Even on an issue he could act upon today, nothing. He talks, he blames, he makes excuses. But, no action. One act of leadership and he can remove the barriers. Why has he not moved?
02:09 AM on 10/22/2009
Probably because he has, from the start of his campaign, opposed ending DADT with an executive order because one exec order can be voided by another. There IS a bill in Congress to repeal DADT. If it passes, he has said he will sign it.

What are you doing to see that it passes?
12:24 PM on 10/25/2009
He's looking for politcal cover with a congressional vote and public hearings on this discriminatory policy. Once it is clear that these are patriotic brave PEOPLE, not issues, that are losing their jobs over nothing, overturning the policy will be more palatable.
Dastius-Krazitauc
I wouldn't tech them peas o' hern.
09:31 AM on 10/21/2009
"The same poll found that 10 percent of respondents would leave the service if gays were allowed openly to serve and another 14 percent would consider leaving."

It is these soldiers who would seem unfit to serve. An unwillingness to cooperate is antithetical to good soldiering.
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wernerholm
pushing buttons
09:25 AM on 10/21/2009
Even if DADT is repealed the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps will find creative (and probably fatal) ways to resist including gays, or ways to actively discourage homosexuals from joining. During basic live for gays will me made a living hell, and "friendly fire" will become the new prefered way do dismiss gays from active duty with extreme prejudice. These are frat boys with guns. They might have the "backs" of women who they grudgingly let in, but there is no way they will ever have the backs of homosexual men. There are a whole host of homophobic Christians in place like "Force Ministries" who will make sure their Christian Soldiers are trained to deal with gays and get away with it.
DADT will stay firmly in place, no matter what the President says. Only a fool (like Kennedy) would cross the military. And the military won't budge on this one one only need visit Colorado Springs to see which way the wind is blowing.
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paisleyface
if we're not gonna have sex, get off my back
10:28 AM on 10/21/2009
Christian soldiers. Interesting. They must be the jumbo shrimp of army intelligence.
02:03 PM on 10/21/2009
Your opinion of our troops is very low, don't you think? I'm sure our military is capable of being professional when the ban is lifted.
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paisleyface
if we're not gonna have sex, get off my back
09:23 AM on 10/21/2009
War is a sacred rite between opposite countries. Gays not allowed. :rolleyes
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DonJM
The narrower the mind, the broader the statement.
09:16 AM on 10/21/2009
Nathaniel, as usual, you make excellent, logical, and rational points.
08:59 AM on 10/21/2009
Scholars like Mr. Bowman once argued that black people should not serve in the military, or if they did should be kept together in one unit. Can you imagine the uproar if that arguement was taking place today? The American Military needs to grow up. Other nationalities defence forces where gays serve alongside non gays have reported noloss of morale or defence effectiveness. It is not, as Mr. Bowman states 'an experiment' but a simple fact of life. No wonder some foreign Defence Chiefs shake their heads in bewildered amusement as America struggles to come to terms with the thought their darling boys and girls might in some way be tainted by having to serve alongside someone of a different sexual persuasion in the twenty first century!
11:51 AM on 10/21/2009
I think sexual orientation is totally different than not being able to serve, because of the color of your skin! Sexual Orientation is a private issue, while the color of one's skin can't be helped. While harming anyone is wrong, I could see where one's sexual orientation would be an issue. There are still a lot of americans who are uncomfortable about gay and lesbian issues. I am one of those people! Why does the world have to know that someone in the military is serving their country, openly as a gay or lesbian person? Why can't they just serve their country?
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gaydm
Into the great wide open.
12:23 PM on 10/21/2009
Maybe if you straight people would keep your lifestyle choice private, we would as well. I have no desire to hear about your sexual activities either.
02:00 PM on 10/21/2009
Then please never talk about your family, take any and all photos of them home and never discuss them.
07:19 AM on 10/21/2009
I think I finally realized how they sold religion. I swear it has eluded me all my life and now I know why. Are you ready? They sold religion as a way for pareants not to have to teach their kids anything. They would not have to think for themselves. And becasue we would make it the majority by force we would always be in the numerically superior. In other words they could never be wrong about anything. This is what was important to you people. Being right or worng? This is what you want to take to your grave with you. That you were right. Do you realize how colossally pathetic that makes you? I can screw an animal. I can screw a man. I can screw a pice of liver. I can screw the earth. You can;t stop me. Get it.
02:14 AM on 10/22/2009
Actually, there are laws against screwing animals and the earth, and I am all in favor of them. Consenting adults, friend.
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DannyEV
10:27 AM on 10/25/2009
he didn't say children, friend.
07:03 AM on 10/21/2009
I have one request of all authorities across the world, the civil authorities, law enforcement, political, military authorities and all forms of media. GET OUT OF MY BEDROOM AND STAY OUT!!!
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CarolinaDem
they DID take the last train for the coast!
08:29 AM on 10/21/2009
We really need a law affording civil and criminal penalties for trespass across boundaries of personal and family privacy. It's nobody's business and anyone who makes it their business is a criminal.
11:54 AM on 10/21/2009
Gays and lesbians make that impossible! They want the world to know that they are gay or a lesbian, so now, we're being forced to deal with this issue.
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gaydm
Into the great wide open.
12:45 PM on 10/21/2009
Gays and Lesbians make what impossible? Why do I need to be quiet about who I am when you don't. It's not like you straight people aren't a dime a 24 pack, nothing special about you either.
02:10 PM on 10/21/2009
What an idiot thing to say. We aren't going to act like we don't exist for the benefit of bigots who want to have their own reality. We exist. Deal with it.
06:53 AM on 10/21/2009
If it wasn't for the consequences for the people involved, this would almost be hilarious. I have not seen one argument for the exclusion of openly homosexual military members, that was not used when Truman integrated, racial, the military over 50 years ago. They are ALL the same arguments!
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03:01 AM on 10/21/2009
I agree that gays have all amendment right which must be enforced
but there comes a time when the perception is gay right is superceding
heavy, heavy fundamental change BANKING REFORM, dare I say HEALTHCARE,
and God knows miltary expense. What we are seeing now is the big mouths shooting
their venom hoping to become the next Harvey Milk. This is to be expected in today's
superbowl of ratings and relavancy.
The country I see today, wounded and polarized, has little stomach for
the distractions set up by billionaire funded RighWing propaganda. We must
push forward healthcare refrom in a subsatntial way. Failing that we have to
set the bar high. I fearWall Street already has bought the Black President
voted in office by the country!!!! He need NOT be black/ They would buy him too!!!
MONEY is he problemmMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!j
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wernerholm
pushing buttons
09:31 AM on 10/21/2009
That is what you say every time, not now the economy is bad. Not now, there' a ______ war. Not now, we need to build new roads....... not now, the president is getting oral sex from an intern...... not now the Russians are coming...... not now they are doing too much coke in Miami...... not now we have Communists to fight......... not now we have to build a McDonalds in Red Square............. not now we have to look into a second rate burglery........ not now not now not now not now................

WHEN???????????
12:00 PM on 10/21/2009
When the President can take a breath! I know he made promises and I believe he will make good on those promises, but I don't think it is necessary to do it at this juncture. If folks would stop threatening the President with voting him out of office, all of the things that he promised would come to fruition. It's going to take more than one term to put this sick puppy (U.S.) back on its feet. You know that a republican president won't give a damn about gays and lesbians and another democratic president will have to try and finish what this President started. I think some of you are being so childish! You knew when this man was elected, that there was so much to do, but once again, americans are acting like spoiled children; can't have their way, so let's threaten the president!!!!
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Romeover
Civilization is for weaklings.
06:18 PM on 10/25/2009
Oldtimer, that was amazing. Incoherent, but amazing.