Hooked on Hillary
I would like to put myself among the growing chorus of people demanding that Hillary Clinton withdraw from the election. I don't really think it's fair to ask her to withdraw, and I certainly don't believe she's going to; she'll hang in there till the last dog dies, or till she runs out of money, whichever comes first. I'm not asking her to withdraw because I prefer Obama, and I don't think she should withdraw "for the sake of party unity," or whatever current bromide is being flung at her to get her to pull out. I think she should withdraw because I'm losing my mind.
Don't get me wrong, this primary election has been swell. Like Michelle Obama, I feel proud of my country for the first time in a long time. I loved Dennis Kucinich, and I had a big sneaker for Chris Dodd. But now that we're down to two contenders, it's turned into an unending last episode of Survivor. They're eating rats and they're frying bugs, and they're frying rats and they're eating bugs; no one is ever going to get off the island and I can't take it any more.
I am particularly sensitive to this because I'm a woman of a certain age, and this means that part of the pie that passes for my brain contains a large slice called Hillary. I've been thinking about her in a fairly pathological way ever since 1992 and dreaming about her as well. She is me, and then again she's not. I used to love her and I no longer do, but unlike what usually happens when love dies, I still think about her far too much. When she tells a big lie, like her recent Bosnia episode, I can lose hours trying to figure out why. I mean, why? Was it one of those things that she'd said so often that she'd come to believe it? Was it a story that had worked in the past so she thought she'd gotten away with it? Did she honestly think that no one would rat her out? Does she not understand that if you're famous, there's almost nothing you do that someone doesn't have a picture of? I have no idea what the answer is to any of this because I'm not a liar and she is. (By the way, I don't think she was always a liar, the way some kids are born liars and never get over it. I think she was once a truthful person and her lying skills were forged in the early years of her marriage, forged in the crucible of Bill's infidelities and in her role as point person in dealing with them. This is what happens when you marry a narcissist: he spills the milk, you clean it up and your love grows. And then you end up a liar, just like him.)
But the point is that it doesn't matter why Hillary lied; what matters is that I'm hooked on Hillary and on the Rorschach process that defines my relationship with her: she does something, I spend far too much time thinking about it, I superimpose my life and my choices onto hers, I decide how I feel about what she's done, I bore friends witless with my theories, and then, instead of moving on, I'm confronted with yet another episode of her behavior and am forced to devote more hours to developing new theories about her behavior. I don't have time for this.
I understand that asking Hillary to withdraw from the race has more to do with me than it does with her, but that's my point.
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"I think she was once a truthful person and her lying skills were forged in the early years of her marriage, forged in the crucible of Bill's infidelities and in her role as point person in dealing with them."
Nora...wit
I wonder what the screenplay writer of the Scary Movies franchise thinks about the primaries?
Arianna, please get right on that.
Nora, I understand how you feel. I think about Obama, and what more can I do to help, and I've even started to dream about him. I dreamed we went for a ride in this box of a car, and I was wondering how he squeeed his 6'4" self in..... lol... Loved your story!
Obama is just under 6' 2" ... I know, it's not important, but facts are facts, right? He really does look taller on TV, but in person, he's quite thin and just above-average height. I'd say he's built like a runner, but I'd like to avoid being accused of divisively evoking his Kenyan roots, so I'll just say he's built like a swimmer. He's very strikingly handsome in person.
Oh, you two, you do go on about Obama. A crush perhaps?
Not a bad person to have a crush on.
How about "The Talented Ms. Clinton," as in the movie, "The Talented Mr. Ripley." ? For the pathological liar, born or made, the way out of the first lie is to tell a bigger lie, then an even larger one is required, and so on. Eventually, if we are lucky, the house of lies comes tumbling down, and the person is left shamed and must seek forgiveness from a roomful of religious leaders--one is not enough! Then the cycle begins again.
The sad thing is the Clintons- both of them - is that they are ruthless, serial liars. They have created largely fictional identities and personas and have convinced too many of us that they are decent people. Nothing could be further from the truth. As the memory of just how dysfunctional the Clinton years were come back to haunt us, we realize, we have been screwed by these two before.
This is how we got George W. Bush in the first place. It is how we might also get John McCain, the fictional man of honor and decency who in fact is the irresponsible grandson and son of great men. John McCain is a man who barely made it out of the naval academy, was a cut up and fuck up from day one and probably caused himself and his men to get captured as prisoners of war by disobeying orders. He is in office because of the enormous wealth of his father-in-law and wife who funded his campaign and used large Arizona papers to create his fictional biography.
Barack Obama may not be the second coming, he may even be a little bit fictionalized himself, but at this point, it's him or another four or eight years of hell on Earth. America just cannot afford John "bomb, bomb bomb Iran" McCain or Hillary "trust me" Clinton.
That Hillary could tell that 'sniper fire' story so compellingly and yet be so completely wrong (ie it didn't happen) is fascinating. Despite being an Obama supporter I am not rabid in my opposition to Hillary. I think she 'mis-spoke' because the mind is a complex thing and memory is not what happened but what we *remember* happening. I really do believe that Hillary has probably told that story so many times (at dinner parties, etc) since Bosnia that everytime she told it she embellished it slightly to make the delivery of the anecdote more appealing. So by the time she told it on the stump she may well have believed what she was telling people. Oh the shame however when CBS ran their newsfile footage!
If people don't believe me about the memory thing I have a case in point: Demi Moore appeared on Letterman last week (same time as the 'sniper' mis-speak). It was the first time in a long time and she was wearing a red dress. She said: "do you remember what happened the last time I wore a red dress on your show?". Turned out 14 years earlier she wore a red dress and was pregnant but did cart-wheels on Letterman. So they dug out the tape and there she was, pregnant and doing cartwheels. But she wasn't wearing a red dress, it was B&W. "Oh" said Demi "I was sure it was a red dress..."
I am sorry, but getting the color of the dress you wore 14 years ago, and "remembering" sniper fire are just not the same thing. Can you honestly tell me you would "remember" being shot at if it never happened? Please.
hmmmm ... now that you frame it in such simple terms ....
...and every time she told it, at a dinner or party, she got away with it. No one fact-checked her; or if they did, they kept it to themselves, being in the inner-circle and all, they didn't want to upset her with the actual facts.
What happens to people when they get away with embellishments is that they start to forget about accountability, and the story grows. It's like war stories in the pub. If no one calls the old warhorse on his exploits in the Great War, he becomes convinced that no one knows better, that no one was watching, so he's safe whatever he says. She just got a dose of war-stories.
I don't think I have that same virus, but if I'm immune, I'm the only human who is.
All the same, do we want someone in office who believes her own legend? I'd rather have someone with a bit of native humility left.
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don't feed the tv.
Embellishments are stretching the truth, they really aren't lies......
Ggt your facts straight. APs and other media verified the sniper fire directed at helicoptors. David Shuster, no fan of hillary's ,the tv reporter who said hillary's daughter was pimping for her) said that he was in bosnia about two months earlier than her trip and they prepared for sniper fire by putting on helmets and flack jackets. Hillary said that she arrIved UNDER sniper fire. Should she have said precisely, "we arrived UNDER the THREAT of sniper fire and then would accept that she misspoke? Among reasons she came to bosnia was to visit with children. One child greeted her because of the perceived danger and ae cermony was cancelled and she was indeed wisked off the tarmac. Check the stories at that time. You crucify this woman for no just reason. Tv is edited, presented in clips that "put on a happy face." if no hard news evolves. Our government would not want to present our first lady in a dangerous situation .
The despicable part of this and other attacks is that once misrepresented, a portion of the story is out there and the intracacies are never recounted. if you were in a helicopter and the military (or whovever) told you "we mght encounter sniper fire" and then your mission was scuttled because it appeared to be a dangerous situation, just how in the hell would you record the event.....
Exactly patsynow.
The response from Obama supporters about the clips taken out of context about Wright was certainly outraged and rightfully so... however hypocrisy runs rampant when the media spin is turned on Hillary. All of a sudden the media are golden.
When I started noting the lack of criticism about the media on the blogs I knew I was onto something about how unfair they were being.
the lack of fairness in the responses by O supporters, and some C as well is very unfortunate. It gives credence to the Republican talking points about eating our own. They do not mean the candidates they mean the supporters who voraciously feed on anything they dislike or don't approve of in a candidate.
In this case it is even more tragic since they essentially do the neocon's work for them by repeating the same old garbage that the NC's began well over a decade ago.
I guess it is wise to consider the source. When people are as rabid with hate as the neo-cons are and the people who unwittingly repeat their trash talk there is no hope for objectivity and fairness. It won't happen. The self righteousness is palpable, you can almost taste the collective lack of reason.
It sounds like sour grapes from David Schuster, who was forced to read an apology to the Clintons and had a two week suspension for saying "it looks like the Clintons are pimping Chelsea."
I've noticed since he has returned from his suspension, he gives it to the Clintons every chance he gets. He has become just another Clinton bash-er, joining the ranks of Matthews and Olbermann.
He was a pretty good analysis in the beginning when he covered the Scooter/Plame trial and other political events, but then he associated with Chris Matthers.
Forgetting the color of something, the date, who all was there, these are all things you would mix up when recalling someting.
To ADD something so ludicrus as sniper fire, ducking and running for cover is not mixing something up. It s making something up to make oneself appear more than what they are.
A fisherman embellishes the size of the fish he caught.
If the fisherman were to add to his story that he was out in the middle of the ocean and he was caught in the "perfect storm" and all the while the boat was being tossed about in fierce waves, he was struggling to reel in the big(ger than actual size) fish would be a lie.
See the difference?
Nora - there are a lot of middle-aged women out here feeling much the same way as you. Honestly, I just want to come away from this Primary without losing total respect for The Clintons. It seems to be dwindling daily, though. I'll still vote for her in the General, if for some strange reason she is the nominee, but I won't be happy about it.
Dear Nora: You haven't lost your essay touch since Esquire, and it's always a pleasure to catch you wherever. Hillary is not that tough to understand nor is she worth that much time trying to figure out. She caugh Bill's Liar Virus and now she's infected. She should be quarantined. So let's do it. Gobama!
How about a great Obama essay with all the Nora shtick?
Why are so many ready to believe she was telling a lie about Bosnia. Am I the only person who has ever had their memory play tricks on them. Why do reporters take notes? Why do police officers refer to notes on the witness stand and use them to remember details that are not even in the notes? Memories are often triggered by events. The memory may be correct or may be filled in by the brain. Another event may even trigger a different memory of the same event.
I have always had a reputation for having an incredibly accurate memory. My wife and I remember the birth of our daughter differently. We were both there and both under stress. Should I file for divorce because my wife is lying about my daughter's birth? How could she misremember such an important event in our lives together, especially considering how stressful it was?
If the party elders were so worried about party unity, why did they not pull Obama aside and suggest he wait a few more years? Hillary would have been the clear winner and the party largely united. Being also of that certain age but a man, I have seen a lot of sexism in my time. Is this just another case of sexism? I wonder why, only now, is party unity so important?
Not being mean, but she should've watched the video first.....
So before she deviates from a speech or shows any spontaneity she should go check the videos? Then some one would probably accuse her of always evaluating the political impact of her comments and bemoaning the fact that she used to be so spontaneous and has now become so calculating. Shouldn't Obama have checked the videos of his pastor? I'll answer that myself; no he should not have. He is getting a bum rap on that. Unlike many, I have actually read the text of some of the sermons. The guy is brilliant and quite a scholar but he does make me cringe at times. Obama should have explained and stuck by his pastor. All I am suggesting is let's give people who have a significant history of service to their communities and country (like Obama and Clinton) some benefit of the doubt and not be so quick to judge.
This is not a situation where she forgot about details of a specific event. If you can't tell the difference, then I guess nothing anyone says is going to change your mind. And she didn't misspeak, as she had said, either. She told a story that never happened. Her telling wasn't even close to the facts. It is clear she was trying to embellish her record as a way of making the case that she is more battle-tested. And she got caught red-handed.
And I am sure neither you nor your wife remember having to dodge sniper fire in the delivery room.
The brain is very good at filling in details that never happened. Eye witnesses often provide different details of events and are notoriously unreliable. I did not say my wife and I had forgotten different details, we both remember details the other says did not happen.
When I was in college we were assigned to view a movie at the local theater. One would have thought we all saw different movies. Again not forgetting details but remembering very clearly things that others saw differently. I and several others remembered the main character being killed at the end, others remembered him being let out of jail at the end (and other variations). It was a rather shocking experience for the class (the professor thought it was hilarious)
I unfortunately can not tell if Hillary is telling the truth. I am not sure she did misspeak as she said, she may have just decided to admit to that rather than say she remembered something that never happened (can you imagine the press had she said "my memory is very clear and differs from what is on the tape"?)
My point is not to proclaim she is telling the truth (because I don't know that), only to question why so many are so quick to say she is lying when every reporter, police officer, lawyer, judge etc. knows that the brain is so unreliable when it come to accurately remembering the past.
I'd take my wife's word on that whole birth thing since she played a more active role. Hillary Clinton lied, period. Making excuses for her is just plain wrong.
It would be one thing to forget details. It is another thing to remember something that never happened. Just tell me this. If you were attacked by sniper fire would you forget? Or better yet, if you were never attacked and shot at by sniper fire ever would you just suddenly remember, "Oh remember one time in band camp in Bosnia, I was under sniper fire?"
Has anyone considered Hillary may have experienced the circumstances she mentioned but just not in Bosnia? Anyone who travels to a war zone is risking their life. How many First Ladies have gone to a war zone at all? How many First Ladies have even tried to take on such a mammoth project as universal health care? How many have her background and accomplishments in helping women and children or anyone?
How many of our candidates have a spouse with the qualifications to run the country, also, and who did a great job in leaving a huge surplus which this Republican administration has squandered and is leaving us with a monstrous debt our grandchildren will still be paying?
Why would anyone ask the best candidate to turn this country around to drop out of the race? Anyone who has the pure stamina, courage and intestinal fortitude to endure the constant battering only the woman candidate is being subjected to can most assuredly meet any challenge she'd face as president.
"...to endure the constant battering only the woman candidate is being subjected to..."
Yeah, that's why they completely ignored Edwards and Kucinich when they weren't making mountains out of haircut and UFO molehills. That's why they ran endless loops of Obama's pastor for at least a week.
I don't mind that people want Hillary to remain in the race, but I rarely read a support comment which doesn't include something so ridiculous as to render the argument absurd.
ummmm, excuse me, a non partisan, non biased report was just published that reports that on the major evening news organizations Barack Obama has been reported on positively 83% of the time. Hillary Clinton 53%.
that is the "math", a 30% difference.
I'm sure you will find a way to spin it.
People without intellectual honesty and objectivity will push their agenda as if true no matter what the facts.
Also, it wasn't a week of Rev. Wright. I was actually surprised after the first 2 days at how moderate they were. That isn't to say they weren't dealing with it stupidly, they have been dealing with the whole campaign stupidly and unfairly. The worst campaign coverage I have ever witnessed.
Sickening.
Being objective is being able to put your candidate into the position of the opposition and try to discern how you would react to whatever is coming at or from him or her compared to how you react to the same information about the opposition. Also would you be as favorable to an issue that comes from the opposite candidate as you are to it because your candidate is for it.
In fact why must you hate Hillary and attack so viciously anyway, what possible justification can you have?
That's a lot of questions:
"Has anyone considered Hillary may have experienced the circumstances she mentioned but just not in Bosnia?"
No. You don't forget whether you've been shot at or where.
Re: other First Lady questions -
I agree; she made a great 1st Lady; but she's running for President. HUGE difference.
"How many of our candidates have a spouse with the qualifications to run the country...
None, obviously. But remember: he lost us a Democratic Congress we had held for 40 years, that Monica crippled his second term and cost Gore his Presidency, that he passed NAFTA AND relaxed the FCC regulations that enabled media consolidat
"Why would anyone ask the best candidate to turn this country around to drop out of the race?"
Because
1) She can't win the most delegates and the superdelegates won't take the lead away from Obama and give it to Hillary.
2) She isn't the best candidate in most people's minds; she failed the most important test of her time in the Senate. She KNEW better and still voted for the Iraq War for personal political reasons...
"Anyone who has the pure stamina, courage and intestinal fortitude to endure the constant battering only the woman candidate is being subjected to..."
She's fighting for her political survival in a way she never fought for anything else. Had she fought against the Iraq War this way, she'd have my vote.
Yes you can forget being shot at, you can also remember being shot at when it didn't happen. The brain is designed to enable survival, not be a perfect recorder of past events. Remembering things accurately may not be best for your survival, hard as that may be to believe.
The other reason to ask her or even force her to drop out of the race is because her and Bill's blatant support of the OTHER PARTY'S candidate as the default choice should not be tolerated. She is competing to be chosen as the candidate of the Party not vice versa, and the Clintons' threats to punish the party for not choosing her cannot be allowed to set a precedent for candidate-bullying of the party. . The party also must be concerned with congressional elections, and the Clinton's narcissistic and traitorous behavior in endorsing McCain is or ought to be more than enough for the party to send them packing.
Actually I did think of that BettyW.
I have been wondering if something like thaqt will turn up.
The other thing I considered was how much stress the moments before landing would be with the warnings, worrying about your daughter, being told how to get off the plane and get to safety.
I think it would be easy to conflate the few minutes before with the few minutes after.
Again, I don't know one way or another and I support both candidates at this point though I admit if I spend too much time reading HuffPo and the like I wind up feeling more pro Hillary. I have always felt the need to protect those who are being unfairly treated.
I do know a few other people who have switched camps completely because of it.
I was completely pro Obama but the stress of trying to remain balanced in the face of such ugliness made me step back and claim an objective supportive protective defense of both candidates if there is something ugly and unfair coming at them.
Perhaps you missed out on the Pilot's recollection of that flight and landing!!!!
"Colonel William "Goose" Changose, the pilot who flew Hillary Clinton into Bosnia, Rusty Humphries' question: "She said she was told to sit on her flak jacket."
"I remember that in Apocalypse Now they sat on their flak jacket. Nobody under my watch has ever directed somebody to sit on their flak jacket. No evasive maneuver. The commander of Air Base Eagle, he had that place -- and not only weren't there bullets flying around, there was no bumblebee flying around. It was really impressive. He had -- he had tanks pointing all the way around the perimeter, he had ground troops everyplace. He had helicopters in the air, making sure that nobody -- you know, for any ground movement. You know, if there had been sniper fire going on, first of all, we wouldn't have landed. Number two, we wouldn't have let her outside the plane."
Now, do you think that the Pilot of that airplane is a liar? And you think the Bosnia girl is a liar? And you think the video has been tampered with and edited out all the "dangerous" portions?
If you do, please tell me what you are taking, cause I would like to partake of same.
Why do you continue to make excuses for Hillary? She is a big girl. She needs to account for her actions herself.
Hilarious and pointed - really enjoyed your self/Hilla
Nora... as a Republican I can tell you those of us on the other side learned long ago what you're finally discovering about Hillary. What did Bill Safire say about her back in the mid-90's? Something about being a pathological liar? Neither she nor Bill would recognize the truth if it sat on their laps. All politicians, Republicans and Democrats, fudge the truth when it's in their interests. We Republicans have our share of liars. Texas Governor Rick Perry fits that description perfectly. There are plenty of others on both sides of the aisle. The Clintons..
"Houston54":
I get that you're a Republican and that defines who you give credence to, but why in the world would you possibly think that Nora Efron, or any of the vast majority of readers of a Progressive site, who are presumably mostly progressive themselves, give a rat's ass about what William Safire ever had to say? Why don't you just include a quote from Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity while you're at it? What gets me about this whole hulabaloo concerning the Tuzla story is that no one, apparently even Nora Efron, has given any thought whatsoever to to the actual substance of Hillary's trip to Bosnia. She did several things there infinitely more important than just land in her plane at the airport, whether or not there was sniper fire. I don't care whether she got the details correct or even embellished the circumstances of her arrival. I've been on several commercial flights where the tubulence or landing was so severe that I was sure the plane was gonna crash. Who cares? The other details of my trips are much more interesting. All politicians embellish stories to make themselves look a little more courageous, virtuous, whatever--even Obama. I've read articles that enumerate his tall tales and exaggerations. Some are pointless, some are a bit more important. Unlike the "Great Communicator," I haven't heard Democrats falsely claiming that they helped liberate Nazi death camps while they were safe in Hollywood making army training films.
It will all depend upon the happenstance that the Republicans swing state votes are counted (for the third consecutive election) by someone who has sworn that they will win. I hope the Dems have closed this door. But I bet they haven't.
I would never leave Hillary for either Obama are McCain... Because she is the best person for the job... It's a shame the News is against her... Instead of giving her the same chance they are giving Obama & McCain!!!
Its great that Hillary is so great with her foreign experience and 35 years of experience and all.
I am not one to call someone a liar, so I will just give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are missspeaking, ok?
Hi Norah
I have been following the USA politics with interest. We have our own crazy brand here in South Africa... Is our possible next President going to be put in jail before he gets to our version of the White House???
I understand what you mean about Hilary Clinton lying. I know someone who is prominent in my profession who told me and my husband all sorts of things; one of which was that a good friend of ours never wants to work with me again.
Of course I asked the good friend, who said he never said anything of the sort, and up till now has never given me any reason to believe he feels that way about me.
Strange... I've been puzzling over why Mr Sleazy would tell me something like that in the first place. Did he not think I would simply go to my friend and ask him? How did he possibly think he would get away with it?
The thought occupied me for months and months, trying to puzzle through how his mind works and I used to drive my husband crazy discussing it.
Fortunately we moved office and now only see him rarely, so I am only thinking about that every few weeks instead of all the time. I hope you achieve the same sort of peace and that the best man or woman wins your elections.
Really enjoyed "You got Mail." Thanks for a great director's commentary.
In early May 1993, Vince Foster gave the commencement address at the University of Arkansas Law School - his alma mater, and said:
"The reputation you develop for intellectual and ethical integrity will be your greatest asset or your worst enemy. You will be judged by your judgment..
RIP Vince Foster, perhaps you _are_ speaking from your grave.
Once again the neo-cons enter into the conversati
Wait? did I say conversation? I meant the continuing hit job.
Either there are many trolls here or many dupes who are entertaining the neo-cons with their divisive and ugly attacks on Senator Clinton.
I would say this is a new low... but it gets worse.
Still, close, very close. You must be so proud.
Accountability,
You forget that Hill &bill support a neo con ( MCcain) over Obama. Whose being divisive? Hill will motivate dead republicans to come vote against her if she gets the nomination. When Bush-lite beats her in November, we truly need to pray for this country. Another sad and painful 4 years.
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