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Patt Morrison

Patt Morrison

Posted: September 12, 2009 11:03 AM

Someone told me that one line of defense trotted out for South Carolina Republican congressman Joe Wilson's ill-bred, uncouth and untrue shout of ''You lie!'' at President Obama is that that sort of thing is done all the time in Britain's House of Commons.

Would Rep. Wilson, the small-y yahoo (the original meaning, from Jonathan Swift's ''Gulliver's Travels''), indeed have fit right in in that ''Mother of Parliaments,'' where the cut and thrust of debate extends to a lot of raised voices?

Yes and no. Shouting and catcalls are part of the culture in the Commons, and an entertaining sight it can be, too. But rules that go back more than a century-and-a-half enjoin members from making accusations about lying or being drunk. Winston Churchill, a tippler of note and an orator of the first water who may never have been called out under the ban on the latter, himself tiptoed around the former by referring to an opponent's ''terminological inexactitude.''

Rep. Wilson's rudeness was not only perhaps a disappointment to his mother and a violation of Section 370 of House rules, but saying that President Obama was lying about illegal immigrants and health care was factually insupportable, as many political fact-checking and news organizations scrambled to find out before the gasps in the House chamber had subsided. (Not that those people who make it a point of honor of being hostile to fact will ever let that deter them.)

So, would it be fine to behave like the British when it comes to an outburst in Congress, but not when it comes to British health care programs? Heck, give me a public option, and I'd let Congress holler its collective heads off.

Thousands are assembling in Washington, D.C. as tax-protesting Tea Partiers (I sure hope they didn't drive on any of those socialist/communist/fascist taxpayer-funded roads to get there). Rep. Wilson has positioned himself to become the popular choice for standard bearer of a recrudescence of an old American political movement. Let's call it for what it is: the Neo-Know Nothings.

 

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Someone told me that one line of defense trotted out for South Carolina Republican congressman Joe Wilson's ill-bred, uncouth and untrue shout of ''You lie!'' at President Obama is that that sort of t...
Someone told me that one line of defense trotted out for South Carolina Republican congressman Joe Wilson's ill-bred, uncouth and untrue shout of ''You lie!'' at President Obama is that that sort of t...
 
 
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11:31 PM on 09/16/2009
Wake up America!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Wendy Johnson
10:23 AM on 09/13/2009
The ones I've heard using the House of Commons to justify Joe Wilson's execrable behaviour have mostly been liberals, who would have liked to hear someone, anyone, call out George Bush once or twice (maybe when he used that disproved thing about Saddam buying yellowcake in Africa). There was evidence out there to prove Bush lied, again and again, and who in Congress said a word?

As defenses go though, it's always been weak sauce. Who seriously thinks Joe Wilson, or any of his tea-party buddies, really cares how they do it in the UK? Hell, that's where they have that goddam socialized medicine, ain't it?
05:48 AM on 09/13/2009
The greatest thing is this:

"you lie" = 2 words, raised voice

sound rebuttal with factual data and historical context, maybe some rhetoric regarding any subject you so desire = 500 words - (italics) infinity (/italics)

So based on the above, he won by that alone. There is always a regretfully large swath of the population who will support the short, ribald, response over the long, intellectual and factually based on anytime. Because the, let's be honest, simpleton believes that if he put you in a dither with 2 words, you should refute him in no less than 4.
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Wendy Johnson
10:13 AM on 09/13/2009
Excellently phrased, and very true as well.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
ginamarie101
"To thine own self be true"
07:26 PM on 09/12/2009
It's heartbreaking to me to see how ugly this collective group of fruitcakes has become, and how much the media glorifies their every move. The most historical election that this country has had in it's history, and a fine decent man in the office of the presidency, and his beautiful wife and family, his unprecedented efforts at reaching across the aisle, and these people don't even recognize how ugly they have become in contrast. If anything is truly a shame and a reason for crying out about our country being hijacked, it is what these people have inflicted upon the rest of the nation.
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justjoe48
sorry, did I say that out loud ?
07:22 PM on 09/12/2009
it doesn't specifically exclude aliens from another planet, such as Repuburanus so wilson was right....just sayin'...
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Tommygun264
2Q2BSTR8
07:21 PM on 09/12/2009
Considering the fact that Joe Wilson is a member of "Sons of Confederate Veterans", a group which has harbored white supremacists wanted by the law, I'd say that he is the perfect leader of the birther/deather/tenther/teabagger movement. After all, the overwhelming majority of the people attending these hatefests never cared about deficit spending and the expansion of government until we got a black President. In fact, whenever anyone would criticize Bush for squandering a record budget surplus and tripling our national debt, these are the people who would chant "freedom isn't free". The racists have simply latched on to a more socially acceptable cause to rally around.
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Freesia2
I'm nicer than I appear in print. :-)
06:38 PM on 09/12/2009
Neo Know Nothings indeed. Also the Neo No! Nothing! 's

Joe Wilson is just the new nothing of the week. Some become part of the regular menu (the eejit Palin) and some phase out quickly ( the equally eejit Joe the Plumber). I don't know how long his shelf life is. He may be a leader. It depends on how successful his eejitness is.
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06:31 PM on 09/12/2009
But he lied that the president lied.

Health Care Bill To Cover Undocumented Immigrants? False.
12,961 Comments
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femalevet1977
11:43 AM on 09/14/2009
or you could check out the Congressional Research Services analysis on this....they assert that it does leave several doors open for illegals to get coverage. But of course, that a nonpartisan Congressional committee. I'm sure you only believe what's on the White House Fact Check site.
06:16 PM on 09/12/2009
What is up with South Carolina? I'm sure there's lots of good people who live there, but man, your elected officials are sub-human!
06:52 PM on 09/12/2009
more like not human
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justjoe48
sorry, did I say that out loud ?
07:31 PM on 09/12/2009
i just bought a vacation home there.....what was i thinking, that said its hard to believe that since most of the people are hard working, simple folk (and i mean that in the kindest of terms) why do they chose the republicans to represent them, talk about conflicting interest
hellinahandcart
Your silence will not protect you.
01:10 PM on 09/13/2009
So. Carolina will soon turn blue-- watch.
03:36 PM on 09/12/2009
we fought a war and gained Independence from Great Britian more than 235 years ago, in part to get away from the mores of the British so what may be considered appropriate decorum for the Brithsh House of Commons is rather moot --- however the republicans are political hypocrites and will justify all of their wacked out immature behavior on whatever excuse they can come up with, just like a bunch of six year olds will do when caught doing bad deeds
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CarolinaYankee
03:35 PM on 09/12/2009
Oh Goody, now Joe Wilson is the new Joe the Plumber. Geez between Sanford, DeMint, Graham and now Wilson, it is getting harder and harder to drive out of state with these S.C. plates. Will have to smear mud on them first I guess.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Czoe
02:35 PM on 09/12/2009
These are the people who are hiding their money in off-shore banks, not paying their fair share of taxes, expecting the middle class to carry their load, got rich on the backs of American workers and are shipping American Jobs overseas and who don't give a flying F@ck about anything but getting more for themselves.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Devilslakewoman
Flaming Liberal
11:00 PM on 09/12/2009
Five Star post.
02:26 PM on 09/12/2009
I too think debate at this level should be more robust. All the manners are a little much. The house of commons has a fine tradition of insult and a good dose of derision. Democratic political debate is above all about the resolution of conflicts withing a prescribed arena that allows for an ultimately peaceful resolution; where the winner should take all, there is no reason that it should not be heated, and occasionally insulting. At the end of the day though, your argument better be right. I don't think Mr. Wilson has a leg to stand on.

In the UK, those same figures insulting each other on the floor of the house are often to be found later knocking back a few wets in the bar.

I was informed by a scholar of American politics there was a time people turned up to debates with firearms. It may have been that you had to enact some strict codes of behavior to stop that famous American method of settling a dispute, a shoot out!?
12:01 PM on 09/12/2009
Civility towards other points of view begins with the president. This President just used the (previously) rare joint address of congress to call the loyal opposition any number of names.
George Bush was a bad President, but he did have class compared to the Chicago style.
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Aerows
01:02 PM on 09/12/2009
You are free to scream at the President, but you aren't free to disgrace yourself doing it on Capitol Hill while the President is addressing Congress and the nation.

Decorum, in case you forgot in your rush to criticize the President of the United States, is a family value.
02:19 PM on 09/12/2009
Sorry, but the usual republican "it's a wash" strategy doesn't work on this one; no president in my lifetime has been disrespected in this way -not even Nixon, and whose going to defend him?

President Obama called out the purveyors of the the lies and myths about healthcare reform for what they are. I heard a conservative blowhard assert that illegals would be covered under healthcare reform even has the that specifically stated that illegal aliens would receive healthcare coverage was read to him. The GOP is the party of willfull ignorance.
11:16 AM on 09/12/2009
I know there are many out there who are really upset with the tone of our political discussions these days. But I am not one of them. Frankly, after my experiences during the late 1960s and early 1970s when, for me, there appeared to be no such thing as civil political discussion, I had begun to worry over the disappearance of such traits. I can now take a deep breath and offer a sigh of relief. Incivility is back in form, and don't you just love it?
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Freesia2
I'm nicer than I appear in print. :-)
06:39 PM on 09/12/2009
No. They're armed.
03:01 PM on 09/13/2009
They're armed, irrational, saved and ignorant. That's a volatile cocktail.
11:56 PM on 09/13/2009
Well, so am I. Although I agree that debate shouldn't degenerate into shootout.