20,000 American Guns Trafficked to Mexican Criminals

Rep. Eliot Engel of New York recently held a hearing in his House Foreign Affairs subcommittee about the Government Accountability Office report on American guns being trafficked to criminals across our southern border into Mexico.

That hearing included an exchange between Ranking Member Connie Mack, Jr. from Florida and Jess Ford of the GAO - the single witness called to present the report's findings.

I present that exchange at length below [available from Lexis and here] because I believe it reveals the shallowness of the opposition to requiring criminal background checks for nearly all gun sales and to restricting access to military-style assault weapons. These are measures that would slow the flow of illegal guns - not just to Mexico, but right here within the United States.

Rather than argue about percentages, let's focus on the fact that 20,000 trafficked guns from America have ended up at Mexican crime scenes.

With that kind of information, I hope our opposition will now acknowledge there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed:

...REP. MACK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And as I mentioned in my opening statement, I'm having a little bit of difficulty in -- or having any confidence, real confidence, in the [GAO] report.

It's not to say that I don't think some of the recommendations that you come up with might be good ones. But I don't know that the report itself is something that we should put a lot of value in.

I would -- most of the things that you have talked about, most of the numbers you've talked about has been based upon the number of guns that you were able to trace. And we know that a majority of those guns that are -- that you're able to trace are the ones that come from the U.S. But that leaves out a majority of the guns that are being seized.

So I'd ask, how many guns were you able to trace to Cuba or Venezuela or Bolivia or Ecuador or from other continents? That would be a question that I'd have for you.

Also, in -- you know, just I think two days ago we were at another hearing together where you had said that Radio or TV Marti -- that less than 1 percent of the people in -- or Cubans see it. And I suggested then that how could you do -- how would you even contemplate that someone -- a Cuban would answer the phone and say, "Yes, I watch TV Marti," when they're in Cuba living under a brutal dictatorship?

So these two things -- this report and that report -- I'm having a hard time having any kind of real confidence in the report itself.

So if you could comment on how many of the weapons do we know come from Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador? ....

MR. FORD: Okay, well, let me maybe respond first to the issue of the data that you indicate you believe the way we portrayed that information is flawed. I don't agree with that conclusion.

What we've got is a summary of information that came from ATF. It's ATF data. It's not GAO data. The ATF data is based on guns that were identified and traced from Mexico. As we clearly state in our report, that represents approximately a quarter of the guns that the Mexican government reported that they seized in 2008. So we clearly identify that in the report.

Secondly, the -- with regard to -- the data is the data. It's 20,000 guns. Those guns --

REP. MACK: Let me just say this: So it would be -- so you would also say that to say that 90 percent or 95 percent of the guns in Mexico are coming from the U.S. is false? That is not an accurate statement?

MR. FORD: That's right.

And we don't say that.

REP. MACK: Right. But other people are saying that.

MR. FORD: Well --

REP. MACK: I think it's important that -

MR. FORD: -- our report does not say that. Our report clearly states the facts.

The facts are it's 90 percent of the guns that were traced, that we were able -- that the Mexican government and ATF were able to send back here to be traced by ATF. It does not represent the 75 percent of the guns that we don't know where they came from because they were never submitted for trace. That's clearly stated in our report. So if someone's misreporting that, you know, that's not my problem. But our report is based on the facts.

The second thing that I think is more important in this is -- and the thing that I think that you all should be concerned about is, regardless of whether we know the -- 100 percent of all of the guns that have been seized in Mexico -- where they came from, I think we should be concerned by the fact that 20,000 of those guns we know for sure came from here....

But the data that we used in our report we believe is sound. And we do believe that further effort actually to expand tracing in Mexico will shed further light on this issue if in fact we can get the Mexican government to send more traces here....

As I said when the GAO released their report, it should be clear that America's weak gun laws pose not only a public safety crisis here at home, but also a foreign policy crisis across our southern border.

In fact, while I wish I could say I was surprised by the GAO's findings in their report, researchers at the Brady Center reached many of the same conclusions almost four months earlier in a report of their own, 'Exporting Gun Violence: How Our Weak Gun Laws Arm Criminals in Mexico and America.'

With 20,000 illegal guns from America recovered at crime scenes in Mexico over the last five years, there is no excuse for Congress and the President not to take steps now to close the gun show loophole in the Brady background check system and give America's law enforcement the tools it needs to protect public safety.

As the exchange in Rep. Engel's hearing demonstrates, there is no reason why the gun lobby and their defenders should further dictate gun policy in this country if they persist in refusing to acknowledge that there is even a gun trafficking problem.

(Note to readers: This entry, along with past entries, has been co-posted on bradycampaign.org/blog and the Huffington Post.)

Comments

[Ohio9]

"An F.B.I. agent in El Paso has been arrested and charged with dealing guns, some of which ended up being used in gunfights between the authorities and drug dealers in Mexico, law enforcement officials said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/us/10brfs-AGENTARRESTE_BRF.html?_r=2&scp=25&sq=gun&st=nyt

It apparently hasn't occured to Paul that many of these illegal guns in Mexico are coming from corrupt sources in the military and police agencies of both governments.

Using Paul's logic, we should pass new laws to prevent the FBI from getting guns.

[thedewd]

This is too 1984-esque to take. It was Paul and the BC who repeated and repeated the 90% figure anywhere and everywhere they could! Now he / they have the audacity to say let's not get confused by the facts!

My hope is that at least some of the BC supporters will actually read this and recognize the blatant LYING Paul and the BC has done. I know that not all of them will, but surely someone will recognize that the people who are mentioned in the exchange he posted as using the 90% figure erroneously are in fact the BRADY CAMPAIGN! They are lying to your face.

Check out some of the posts BY THE BRADY CENTER that use the exact 90% figure that is clearly a horribly misleading number. Please learn to think for yourself and see the disingenuous way that the BC manipulates data for their own benefit. Facts be damned! 90%! 90%! Oh, wait, that's not true...20,000! 20,000! Sheesh, could the BC have less integrity?

[GoldenBoy22]

Oh God, I love the irony!
See the related news link attached to this article,

Mexico Drug War: Reporter Forced To Flee From Army, "The Biggest Cartel Of All"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/07/mexico-drug-war-reporter_n_226956.html

So if the Mexican Army which purchases military arms from US manufacturers is considered the "Biggest Cartel" I wonder about the claims of cross border gunshop and gunshow supplied smuggling?

[djkrlsn]

I have a suspicion that the Mexican government "lost' many of the weapons we sold to it is why the Mexican government did not give us all US manufactured guns (kind of hard to argue a problem with U S gun stores when the Mexican government and sources from Central America and beyond were the source of the milspec weaponry captured from the cartels)

[kaveman4]

Whenever Helmke says that he just wants to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous individuals, he means us.

http://www.bradynetwork.org/site/MessageViewer/&printer_friendly=1?em_id=37001.0

[Jadegold]

BTW, Mexico is not the only country--Jamaica has a serious problem with US guns illegally being shipped to that country.

[mike102]

Since you went to all the trouble of 'coming out', you could have at least brought a source with you.

[djkrlsn]

Madam Cabot actually provide a legit source-=-heaven forbid that happen

[kaveman4]

How can that be???

Jamaica has very strict gun control laws.

[benEzra]

One problem with the "Mexican guns from the USA" claims that has not been adequately addressed is the fact that many of those U.S.-made guns are NOT LEGAL FOR CIVILIAN SALE IN THE UNITED STATES. Sales are restricted by Federal law to U.S. and foreign military and police.

The Zetas are largely defectors from the Mexican military and police forces. Guess where the Mexican police and military purchase their M16's and M4's? Yes, mostly U.S. manufacturers. But those guns are not available to U.S. civilians; they are supplied directly to the Mexican government and illegally diverted from there.

I have no doubt that there is some traffic in U.S. pistols flowing north to south, and probably a few non-automatic U.S.-legal civilian rifles. But the M16's, the 14.5" barreled select-fire M4's, the M203 grenade launchers, and the U.S.-made fragmentation grenades you see in a lot of those U.S.-guns-captured-in-Mexico photos are NOT coming from the U.S. civilian market; they are coming from the military/law enforcement supply chain. Nor are the automatic AK-47's and the RPG's coming from the USA, as those are neither manufactured here nor imported for sale.

[djkrlsn]

Helmke, SUgarman, Henigan and company are never going to admit that the milspec weaponry DID NOT come from the American civilian market--it would get in the way of their long supported agenda of complete civilian disarmament

[Jadegold]

Alas, this is not true.

I wonder why ben ezra would continue to advance myths, misrepresentations and falsehoods about the situation in Mexico.

The Mexican ambassador to the US says the guns are coming from US gun shops, as does the ATF. Yet, benEzra would have us believe he, alone, has the truth.

[djkrlsn]

Mistress Cabot--with your history--there is no way in Hades I will take your word on the weather outside my window with you sitting next to me much less any lies you choose to spread about gun control, firearms or anything else

[MonsieurLinoge]

Jade--

You absolutely correct.

[benEzra]

Spare me the ad hominems. Here's a photo of some weapons seized from Mexican drug cartels:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04pZcWBfun9ax/610x.jpg

I see a whole bunch of M203 grenade launchers and M203 rounds; M4's with military/police restricted uppers (Title 1 civilian barrels must be 16" minimum, those are probably 10.5"); and grenades. Those are NOT U.S.-available civilian guns. Most of the stuff in that photo is police/military restricted hardware, U.S. made but NOT available on the U.S. civilian market because it is subject to Title 2 of the National Firearms Act.

It IS available to the Mexican military, and guess where most of the Zetas come from.

More police/military restricted weapons, U.S. made but NOT available to U.S. civilians:

http://www.contempomag.com/seized-Mexican-weapons.jpg

Likewise, the RPG's the drug cartels have been using are NOT available on the U.S. civilian market and never have been. They *are* widely available in Central America, thanks to decades of Cold War superpower proxy skirmishes, as are actual military AK-47's and RPK's that are tightly controlled in the USA.

The Zetas have access to the Mexican military supply chain, and to the huge arms caches in Central America created by decades of Cold War proxy wars. Certainly there are some non-automatic civilian guns flowing south from the USA (mostly handguns), but the serious military hardware is not coming from U.S. gun stores.

[Dimensio]

Please provide evidence in support ofy our assertions.

[kaveman4]

How can anyone take the BC seriously when they have a link to this nonsense on their homepage?

''This is Washington's problem,'' said Mr. Timoney, referring to the federal ban on the sale of assault weapons, such as the AK-47, that Congress let lapse in 2007."

"That's all well and good, but Mr. Obama would better serve Americans by heeding the just cause of Chief Timoney and other law-enforcement leaders. They see firsthand the terrible toll automatic weapons take on our streets."

That's odd, I thought the AWB sunsetted in 2004.

The tired old canard that the AWB was about full-autos.

The Brady Campaign isn't even trying anymore.

[Thirdpower]

The claim that "90% of the guns used by Mexican drug cartels come from the United States" has been thoroughly debunked (I talked about it here, for example). I have also discussed, here and here, various sources of drug cartel weapons that the forcible citizen disarmament lobby would prefer not to talk about.

The "90%" claim has, in fact, been so thoroughly discredited that even those who tried to make political hay of it have been forced to back away from it. Here's Brady Campaign president Paul Helmke:

Rather than argue about percentages, let's focus on the fact that 20,000 trafficked guns from America have ended up at Mexican crime scenes.

He certainly seemed interested in arguing about them back in April:

As the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) reports, 90 percent of firearms recovered at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to gun sellers right here in the United States.

[Thirdpower]

3rd try:

The above is from the St. Louis Gun Rights Examiner.

[djkrlsn]

It should tell you something when the BATFE made critical comments about Sec State CLinton when she claimed that 90% of the guns confiscated from the cartels came from the US. Also-it makes no sense for the cartels to buy civilian ARs from US gunstores when they can get milspec M16s, SAWS, RPGs, milspec AKs etc from other source for much less than what a semiauto only AR costs in the U S

[Allaboutlinoge]

BTW, how about the Steve McNair tragedy?

Seems Kellermann is proven right---again.

The fact is a gunowner is far more likely to shoot or be shot by a family member or intimate acquaintance than to use a gun against the "unknown assailant."

It's also clear McNair's killer had no problem getting a gun, despite a DUI and some mental problems.

So, let's say you're a gunowner--a proud NRA member. You''ve got a birthday coming up in a couple of days. But you're in your late-30s, you haven't had a job this year. Do you really think it's a good idea to live in an arsenal?

[twogunmojo]

proof that she had mental problems....any diagnosis from any doctor will suffice....this one instance doesn't prove kellerman was right...anymore than one instance of defensive gun use proves the rkba crowd right...and in tn. she was of age to buy a gun from a private seller....got any other things you want me to smack down.....

[MajorTom125]

"Seems Kellermann is proven right---again."

Hasn't Kelermann been bebunked enough for you yet, Jade? Kellermann couldn't even prove Kellermann right to Kellermann.

"The fact is a gunowner is far more likely to shoot or be shot by a family member or intimate acquaintance than to use a gun against the "unknown assailant."

Even the FBI's too conservative estimate of 80,000 successful defensive uses of a firearm anually shoots a rather big hole in that statement, Jade. In over 90% of these cases, it isn't even necessary to fire the gun.

Like the BC, Jade believes that the only successful defensive use of a firearm is when the criminal is shot and killed. Then they can whine about the criminal being a victim of "gun violence".

"The fact is", you're wearing this baloney out.

[Ohio9]

Right, so if I got a gun, it would force me to shoot myself with it. I suppose it would start talking to me and saying things like "Come on man, you know you want to end it all. I can make it so easy for you."

I suppose I could respond with something like "But gun, I think life is still worth living." But of course my gun's incredible powers of persuation would be too hard to resist.

Seriously, McNair's mistress didn't buy her gun for self defense or target shooting. She bought it specifically to commit murder suicide. The gun didn't broadcast thoughts of homicide or suicide into her brain. It was her responsibility alone for what she did with it.

[OdinsEye]

"Seems Kellermann is proven right"

Completely wrong.

Kellermanns study indicated a firearm bought for legal defensive purposes is more likely to be misused than be used in defense.

In the McNair case, the firearm appears to have been bought specifically for an illegal purpose, therefore Kellerman would not apply.

Further, no one has said that firearms owned for legal purposes are not sometimes misused. Kellerman asserted that they are more likely to be misused than used for defense. Therefore, one anecdote fails to prove his assertion.

[Allaboutlinoge]

Oh no!

We have another Kellermann illiterate.

In truth, Kellermann had two different studies. One found keeping a gun in the home carries a murder risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one. No motives are attributed or implied.

In the McNair case--a gun was in the home, there was a murder.

The second study found people are 21 times more likely to be killed by someone they know than a stranger breaking into the house. Half of the murders were over arguments or romantic triangles. The study also found that the increased murder rate in gun-owning households was entirely due to an increase in gun homicides only, not any other murder method. It further found that gun-owning households saw an increased murder risk by family or intimate acquaintances, not by strangers or non-intimate acquaintances.

Again, the McNair case facts hold.

[djkrlsn]

Maitress Cabot--it is well established that "acquaitance shootings" take place within an abusive home, between drug seller and drug buyer, gangbanger shooting gangbanger, robber shooting fence, passenger shooting taxi driver, local resident shooting stop and rob clerk--that kind of thing--others have posted that in Chicago over 75% of the shooters and victims have criminal records

[Allaboutlinoge]

According to our NRA friends, numbers and statistics cannot be trusted.

After all, they're fact-based and not based on fantasies.

Let's look at some of innumeracy:

"20,000 over the last 5 years out of 200,000,000+ "

This person is laughable. That's akin to claiming cancer is pretty irrelevant because there were only 500K deaths from cancer in 2006 out of a population of nearly 300M. It's almost like these folks have never taken basic math or logic.

Or this winner:

"20,000 divided by 5(years) and then divided by 265(days) yields an answer of 11 guns per day. A far cry from 20,000, wouldn't you agree?"

This is clearly from someone who should not be allowed near numbers or figures because he'll find a way to hurt himself. The GAO refers to guns that were seized at crime scenes. The ATF estimates that 2000 guns illegally make their way into Mexico daily. Most 10 year olds would not have the difficulty this poster did.

[kaveman4]

I caught my fat finger mistake of 265 vs 365. Yes, I admit I missed an additional mistake of 20,000 vs 2000.

The math still states that it works out to 11 guns per day, a far cry from 2000.

20,000 over a five year period is 4000 per year average. 4000 gun divided by 365 days is 10.96 guns per day. In my opinion, 11 is a far cry from 2000.

[twogunmojo]

you didn't answer the question of when these guns arrived in mexico....and shouldn't you be happy that 10 guns a day are taken off of american streets...lets try to stay positive....

[MajorTom125]

"This is clearly from someone who should not be allowed near numbers or figures because he'll find a way to hurt himself. "

You mean like whenever you try to fudge the population of Chicago by 6 million or so?

Please.

[djkrlsn]

It would be more accurate to state that "stats" from the BC/VPC/Ceasefire/(faux)GunGuys/Fraudlinoge are not to be trusted

[molonlabe]

"Rather than argue about percentages, let's focus on the fact that 20,000 trafficked guns from America have ended up at Mexican crime scenes."- PH

Yeah, rather than argue about the actual facts which tend to refute these wild claims of the US being a firearm pipeline to Mexico, while giving their corrupt police force a pass, lets stick with the ones we've cherry picked in order to support our gun ban agenda.

Sad.

[djkrlsn]

It would be nice if Paul would actually come up with something new instead of rehashing all the same old discredited fertilizer that he has spread already in unison with SUgarman, Hennigan and Bradley

[molonlabe]

It would be nice, but it wouldn't serve to further the "the cause."

[twogunmojo]

20,000 over the last 5 years out of 200,000,000+ is not really a stinging rebuke of current gun policy.....

[twogunmojo]

it seems that the libs are too upset over michael jackson to care much about your ideas paul....

[djkrlsn]

Since less than 20% of guns confiscated were traced to the US--it would be nice if Paul told the truth instead of whatever he thinks will support his desired end result--a complete ban on civilian ownership of guns

[kaveman4]

That should have been 365 days below, fat fingered that one.