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Pierre Omidyar

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Separation of Mosque and State

Posted: 10/26/10 09:43 PM ET

There is a growing tide of opinion in this country that religion and government should be intertwined. This view tends to be most widely held by evangelical Christians, who believe that society would benefit if Christianity played an official role in government.

A recent Honolulu Civil Beat poll found that 11 percent of likely voters in Hawaii believed Christianity should play an official role in government. Among evangelical
Christian voters, the number was 32 percent.

Those who hold this view have begun questioning the Constitutional principle of separation of church and state. Most recently, Colorado Republican Senate candidate Ken Buck said he "strongly" disagreed with the principle. Delaware Republican Senate candidate Christine O'Donnell wasn't sure exactly where to find the principle or what the First Amendment was actually about.

Despite its name, the separation of church and state applies equally to any religion, so it could also be called the "separation of temple and state," or the "separation of mosque and state."

This important principle derives from the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which reads, in its striking simplicity and brevity:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The United States Constitution and its Bill of Rights is in many ways an extraordinary document, and a reading of its First Amendment brings that to life.

The phrase "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is referred to as the Establishment Clause, and is the basis for the principle of separation of church/temple/mosque and state. Combined with the phrase "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," known as the Free Exercise Clause, this short sentence is what guarantees Americans of all faiths (or no faith) the freedom to worship (or not) as they like, and freedom from the oppression of a state-sponsored
religion.

Some argue that allowing Christianity to play an official role in government would make communities stronger by promoting morality and faith. Readers of Jim Wallis will certainly
appreciate the positive impact that faith can bring. But while faith plays an important role in encouraging morality, social cohesion and justice, government-sponsored or government-favored religion brings a whole host of problems.

Ask the Christians who live in the Islamic Republic of Iran. Iran is a theocracy -- a country whose government allows religion to play an official role, where God is considered the highest authority,
superseding civil authority. In this case, it's the God of Islam, and His authority is interpreted by human beings under His divine guidance. The rights of religious minorities like Christians are
guaranteed under the Iranian Constitution, but they are still subject to the higher divine authority of Islam.

Would a Christian living in Iran feel she had the right to the free exercise of her religion, despite those guarantees? Not likely. It's obvious that the free exercise of religion is impacted by
government-sponsored religion.

Back in the United States, even short of an official theocracy, any government official in a position of leadership needs to be mindful of the environment she creates by encouraging prayer under her particular faith. While her intentions would be positive, her sponsorship, constant presence and active encouragement of others to attend would undoubtedly make people of different (or no) faith feel that they might fall out of favor with an important official by not attending.

This has become an issue in the Hawaii gubernatorial race because the Republican candidate, Lt. Gov. James "Duke" Aiona, has stated he would continue to hold prayer sessions in his office after having dedicated Hawaii's public schools in prayer to God and Jesus Christ.

Is the pressure of official sponsorship akin to "prohibiting the free exercise" of one's religion? In the case of Iran, their government doesn't think so, because it doesn't "prohibit" the exercise of any religion, despite official sponsorship of Islam.

In the United States, however, it appears some people are still asking that question. What do you think?

 

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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
lyredragon
Obey My Dog!
07:20 PM on 11/07/2010
As a christian I am very disappointed with people that want to intertwine religion and politics. I agree with what Bahramerad said: state is a contract between men. Furthermore, from the Christian perspective, setting up a temporal state based upon Christian theology pulls apart of the eternal nature of the kingdom of god. wherever religion had intertwined with the state, corruption of the church has followed. that fact is responsible for pretty much all of the travesties of the last millenium and a half in Europe. It irks me that some people are surprised to find out that the separation of church and state is not just a secularist concept, it's a very christian concept. It's sad when the sepsration as a concept is being jeopradized by the ignorant. It's blatant anti-intellectualism. 32% of E-christians think there should be no separation are the same 32% that should be dragged out and given the choice between remedial history classes or community service in a country that has no freedom of religon
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Bahramerad
01:10 AM on 10/30/2010
@ uncc49er : Persia is considered by some to have been briefly officially Christian. Khosrau I married a Christian wife, and his son Nushizad was also a Christian. When the king was taken ill at Edessa a report reached Persia that he was dead, and at once Nushizad seized the crown and made the kingdom Christian. Very soon the rumour was prove false, but Nushizad was persuaded by persons who appear to have been in the pay of Justinian to endeavour to maintain his position. The action of his son was deeply distressing to Khosrau; it was necessary to take prompt measures, and the commander, Ram Berzin, was sent against the rebels. In the battle which followed Nushizad was mortally wounded and carried off the field. In his tent he was attended by a Christian bishop, probably Mar Aba I, and to this bishop he confessed his sincere repentance for having taken up arms against his father, an act which, he was convinced, could never win the approval of Heaven. Having professed himself a Christian he died, and the rebellion was quickly put down.
See Here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iran
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Bahramerad
01:09 AM on 10/30/2010
@ uncc49er: You keep juping from one subject to another ! FYI ...A number of Christian denominations are represented in Iran. Many members of the larger, older churches belong to ethnic groups with their own distinctive culture and language. The members of the newer, smaller churches are drawn both from the traditionally Christian ethnic minorities and to an increasingly larger degree converts from non-Christian background.
According to Acts 2:9 in the Acts of the Apostles there were Persians, Parthians and Medes among the very first new Christian converts at Pentecost. Since then there has been a continuous presence of Christians in Persia/Iran.
During the apostolic age, Christianity began to establish itself throughout the Mediterranean. However, a quite different Christian culture developed on the eastern borders of the Roman Empire and in Persia. Syriac Christianity owed much to preexistent Jewish communities and the Aramaic language. This language was most probably spoken by Jesus, and, in various modern forms is still spoken by some Christians in Iran today (see Assyrian Neo-Aramaic and Senaya language). From Persia, missionary activity established the Saint Thomas Christians of India and the Nestorian Stele and Daqin Pagoda in China.
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Bahramerad
01:29 AM on 10/29/2010
Rubbish ! - Christians - Armenians have always lived in Iran ! - They were IRANIAN when there was NO Armenia ! --- Large part of Ancient Iran was CHRISTIANS before the Arab / Islam Invasion of The Greater Iran .
12:47 PM on 10/28/2010
I love separation of church/state arguments because we have seen right-wing groups go NUTS when other religions want to hang things outside government buildings. They LOSE IT...HOW DARE THEY TRY AND IMPINGE THEIR BELIEFS ON AMERICA!

But if they want to do the same for their religion? That is allowed...ALLOWED !
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Bahramerad
02:21 AM on 10/28/2010
Religion is a state of mind . State is a contract between men. Two different concepts.
03:55 PM on 10/27/2010
You got all worked up over 11 percent of the population? who's fooling who.
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03:42 PM on 10/27/2010
To say that religion OR government should have a role in promoting or legislating morality is ridiculous. People operated on a code of moral ethics long before any religion or government co-opted that code to control people.
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bbbbjr
freedom from religion
03:37 PM on 10/27/2010
If we are to believe in the idea of American Exceptionalism, to which most Americans subscribe at some level, we really need to understand that which makes us exceptional or unique. It is not our "freedom". There have been "free countries" before the US. It is not our "democracy". There have been democracies and republics before.

What makes us truly exceptional is the idea that our republic is guided by ideals which are totally independant of religious doctrine but rather guided by the rights of the individual.

We are not and never were a Chrsitian nation. We are a nation largely founded by people who were, to varying degrees, Christian. two toally different statements.

If we ascribe any level of governing power to a particular faith, how are we ANY different from the multitude of state/church combinations which have come and gone over the ages?

Answer: we aren't...we would be just another dime-a-dozen theocracy...unexceptional.
de-meme-ing
Buying USA Feeds USA, Supports/Preserves USA
12:38 PM on 10/28/2010
I faved that. But we are a nation that keeps sh*tting where we eat. Where we once may have been a predominantly Christian nation that is not now the case. Therefore the problems of America are not exclusive to Christians if the cause of the problem is that we keep sh*tting where we eat; I think that there is sufficient evidence that we are doing just that.

Our nations has recently fallen below 20 in the scale of corruption. Chile, a country that hardly has our wealth and power has more integrety then we do.

OUr educational system has fallen to 25 amongst it's peers and fallen to 40 in maternal/infant death rates.

It begs the question why? Is it politics? Where are the good, patriotic men and women? The loyalists? They are sh*tting where they eat all over America. Oh, that's right, patriotism and loyality are evil.

And the air this election is quite foul.
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TexasDem0
USMC Vietnam combat vet
12:13 PM on 10/27/2010
My government does not interfere with your religion.
Please keep your religion out of my government.
de-meme-ing
Buying USA Feeds USA, Supports/Preserves USA
12:25 PM on 10/28/2010
"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" Matthew 15:11

Someone should tell the fundamentals, especially those who adhere to every word that comes out of Jesus mouth the following; he doesn't support their desire to dissolve separation of shurch and state.

What goes in his mouth goes out where?

My mother put it like this; “don’t sh*t where you eatâ€. If I am an astute pupil of my mother, and my secular education has fulfilled it’s obligation toward my instruction, I understand that “equally†I should not sh*t where others eat; especially if I don’t want them sh*tting where I eat. Now that is separation of church and state in a nut shell. Don’t sh*t where you eat, and don’t sh*it where others eat.
billstewart
Not a micro-biologist
09:51 PM on 10/30/2010
My religion says killing people is wrong, and stealing people's stuff is wrong. I hope you don't mind me telling your government that, and I hope your government will do something about those things.

My religion also says worshipping the wrong gods is wrong. I hope you don't mind me telling your government that, and I hope your government doesn't make me worship the wrong gods or not worship mine, and I'm just fine if your government also doesn't make other people worship the right gods.

And surprisingly, there are issues that are more complex than those two, and times Caesar should mind his own business even when the issue isn't directly religious.
11:41 AM on 10/27/2010
if religion played as important a role in our individual lives as we're led to believe by demons dressed in angels wings it plays in government and in politics, there would be no need for questions like these.

and btw, i say keep your state out of my religion. the whole movement towards separating religion from leadership is as old as the separation of the waters above from the waters below, and originated with the first desire to follow the Whims of Man and abandon obedience to the Laws of God which were given to us to prevent precisely the kind of pain, suffering and wanton destruction of ourselves and our world that we're witnessing today as a result of embracing Man as God.
ThatsTheTheWayItIs
religion, ideology, partisanship are delusional
10:48 AM on 10/27/2010
Great article! Christine O'Donnell should have read it :-)
09:59 AM on 10/27/2010
America is a country that’s not defined by membership in a single ethnic group or religion. It’s somewhat unusual in the world that way. The reason this works is because we define America based on a shared set of principles as defined in the Constitution. One of those is the freedom of religion: to be an American means to value the ability to practice any religion or none at all. What this works out to in practice is that we must justify our policies and our laws based on principles that people of all faiths, or none, can agree on. Without that basic agreement on principle, America would no longer be America.
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Bahramerad
01:35 AM on 10/29/2010
America is NOT one country ! - Last I counted there was at least 52 /54 different countries joined together to form the USA .... not to mention the many vertual Americas !
09:58 AM on 10/27/2010
Separation of church and state is right and good, however, most Americans dislike having the Ten Commandments removed from public places, having phrases like 'under God' dropped from the Pledge of Allegiance, having prayer proscribed and then allowing special exceptions to be made for Muslim students so they can wear hijabs, wash their feet and pray five times a day. The difference is that in America, Islam sets Muslims apart in a very overt way, by Muslim's dress and actions. Christianity, on the other hand, is practically invisible and has been forced to become almost underground. Christians don't have to make a big show of praying, by washing their feet and prostrating themselves on the ground, taking up everyone else's time. It's time to stop changing American traditions that are based in Christianity. If someone is an atheist, how can they be offended by my praying before a school event?
ThatsTheTheWayItIs
religion, ideology, partisanship are delusional
10:53 AM on 10/27/2010
The First Amendment is often offensive. We atheists apologize if we offend by insisting it be followed, but note many are offended when you say that only believers in Christ are saved, that others are damned. That offends 3/4ths of the world's people, the ones that aren't Christian.

And many atheists have read the Bible, know what's in there, and we're scared of true believers. If you believe in the Bible, you must believe Deuteronomy. See what it says you must do to us non-believers, it's grotesque.
10:57 AM on 10/27/2010
Atheists have no problem with you praying on your own before a school event - but when a teacher leads a class in prayer, its breaking the establishment clause. Praying, fine. State sponsored prayer, not fine.

If it does offend an atheist (as I can't speak for every atheist) tough - its your right to pray. If you're disrupting the class with a prayer, then theres a problem with disrupting a class.
09:41 AM on 10/27/2010
I don't understand the purpose of this article. I don't see any great increase in calls for a christian theocracy, and your own statistics prove the point: only 11% of all voters and less than a third of evangelicals agree with the statement that christianity should have influence on the government. Hardly a groundswell of support.

As far as "separation of church and state" goes you have it all wrong, and (amazingly) Christine O'Donnell had it right. This phrase does not appear anywhere in the Constitution. It comes from a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. It is not a constitutional principle.
11:01 AM on 10/27/2010
I agree the author's contention that there is a growing groundswell of support for theocratic government is overstated. I'd be willing to bet that the number of voters who'd like to see Christianity play an official role in government was higher 50 or a hundred years ago. In any event, 11 percent of anything isn't all that much--unless it can proven that it's 11 percent "with a bullet," rising rapidly. The author offers no such proof.

But certainly the Establishment Clause separates the power of the state from the practice of religion, regardless of whether the exact phrase "separation of church and state" can be located in our founding documents. For the vast majority of jurists, politicians, and constitutional scholars, "separation of church and state" has simply been a shorthand way of saying "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
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DJTommyK
11:13 AM on 10/27/2010
Yes, it's fairly obvious that you don't understand this article. Read it again. The concept of "separation of church and state" stems from the establishment clause, which is of course part of the Constitution by way of the First Amendment.
01:37 PM on 10/27/2010
The two ideas are similar, but different. The contitution is about preventing the federal government from establishing a state supported religion, or even favoring one religion over another.

The "wall of separation" idea is much broader than the establishment clause. It does not "stem" from the establishment clause. Read Jefferson's letter.