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Rev. Dr. Cindi Love

Rev. Dr. Cindi Love

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The Lutheran Church Embraces the LGBTQ Community!

Posted: 04/19/10 02:23 PM ET

George Bernard Shaw once said, "Certainly all great truths begin as blasphemies." On April 11, 2010, those who identify as people of faith and as "non-heterosexual" were given particular cause to celebrate Shaw's wisdom: a most unlikely church has given a most unlikely people a gift of love and truth, and I cannot stop smiling.

After twenty-five years of deliberation, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) Church Council has abolished its anti-gay policies, effective immediately. Following from discussions at the ELCA Churchwide Assembly last summer, the ELCA will now allow people in same-sex relationships to serve as rostered leaders. Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) human beings are no longer considered abominations but blessed church members with full standing. Same-sex partners and families can now fully participate in the ELCA Pension Plan.

Best of all, the ELCA is reinstating people who were removed from ministry positions because they were truthful and came out of the closet, as well as those who conducted holy unions for non-heterosexual couples. The ELCA has practiced restorative justice.

The Lutherans -- breaking from Garrison Keillor stereotypes as shy, retiring, or stoic -- said, "Just do it!" All votes passed overwhelmingly, with no votes against and no drawn-out hassles about how to implement the policies.

I'm particularly grateful to the ELCA for adding restoration to its reforms. My colleague, Rev. Paul W. Egerston, faithfully pastored and served as Bishop in the Lutheran church for 31 years. He resigned one month before the end of his term in 2001. Why? He ordained a lesbian as a Pastor and took a public stand for justice in opposition to the official anti-gay policy of the ELCA. Now, Paul and his wife, Shirley, and their six children, 12 grandchildren and two great-grandchildren can take a day off. I believe that through the ELCA's restoration, God has sent them a message, "Well done, my good and faithful servants."

In the midst of this week of celebration, I have been asked, "What about the rest of the churches? How can we get them to change their minds about gay people and our rights as human beings?"

Let me suggest a simple formula: praise, publicize, and participate. It is important that we actively support the ELCA leaders and the early adopters with our public affirmation and praise. Write a letter of commendation of the ELCA to the editor in your local paper and send a copy to the denominational headquarters. Carbon copy your letter to the leadership of non-affirming denominations. Financially support the organizations who "push the envelope" of denominational resistance to change. Anti-gay fundamentalists outspend pro-gays by a ratio of four to one. Participate in community-based engagement efforts. These have proven highly effective in shifting attitudes of fundamentalists towards gays.

The good news is that science is on our side. Consumer adoption theory tells us that the rate at which people accept change or innovation accelerates once early adopters embrace the idea and people hear about the change. This makes sense when you think about the way in which people buy new technology. There are always people who buy the first release. They tell their friends and families. They weather the challenges of operating systems that are less than perfect.

The ELCA has served as the beta test site for a process through which a very traditional faith community can reverse its thinking and policies. They will continue to push the envelope and all of us will learn from their experiences. Other denominational leaders and congregants will be glad that they tested the waters first.

And, soon, as we've seen with microwaves, cell phones, the Internet, and even the Model-T, the rest of us will wade into the water as well.

The Lutherans have made a crack in the dam of religious bigotry that is now set to break wide open for the rest of the fundamentalist world -- we are at a tipping point.

The ELCA has conducted itself with grace and dignity, and many of us are longing for some of that type of public civility. Their example is going to make people within other embattled denominations long for a better process within their own communities. The ELCA members didn't wage war in public with one another. There was no public outcry that diminished everyone while they worked their way through a quarter century of discussion.

The ELCA press release about the decision reads:

These actions are important because they are a major milestone along the journey of full inclusion. We have a policy that recognizes the gifts of its members [...] and that will allow the return of those who have been removed or alienated [...]. [There will] be new life in the church through new leaders. [...] [W]e have lifted up crucial questions for the church: What is the relationship of sexuality to salvation in Christ? What is the diversity in God's wondrous creation? What is sinful? [...] Who continues to face barriers to ministry and mission? How do we journey together faithfully, in spite of so many differences? What some people have dismissed as a narrow issue has both opened up and profoundly deepened our moral and theological life.

Amazing. It sounds like the Lutherans think LGBTQ people have helped them get closer to God. A great truth has been realized today that Jesus Christ demonstrated throughout His ministry 2000 years ago. It is not blasphemous to include and embrace the prayers and relationships and service of those outside society's gate. In fact, it's a blessing.

 
 
 

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George Bernard Shaw once said, "Certainly all great truths begin as blasphemies." On April 11, 2010, those who identify as people of faith and as "non-heterosexual" were given particular cause to cele...
George Bernard Shaw once said, "Certainly all great truths begin as blasphemies." On April 11, 2010, those who identify as people of faith and as "non-heterosexual" were given particular cause to cele...
 
 
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05:21 PM on 05/03/2010
Rev. Dr. Cindi, please don't forget intersex people. Please don't exclude us.
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ez duz it
οὐκ ἔστιν θεός
12:10 PM on 05/02/2010
Christian dogmatists maintain that the NT Mss are the inerrant, unassailable revelation of God. They claim the extant NT Mss infallibly communicate the words of the earliest Mss and appeal to patristic witnesses of the NT Mss to substantiate their argument.

The dogmatists are reluctant to publicly concede that the original NT and patristic witnesses are lost to the ages - yet insist that the extant copies of these documents faithfully convey the “original” texts.

With such divine authority seemingly bulwarking them, the doctrines upon which the dogmatists build their teachings are lent a cachet of co-Biblical, co-Divine clout. Christians aren’t suggesting that Gay people shouldn’t be granted equal civil status as their heterosexual counterparts (vis-à-vis: the civil right to marry the person one loves, regardless of gender or to serve openly in the military), but God’s inerrant Biblical demand.

But, of the surviving 5,000 Greek NT Ms, not one agrees with another (Metzger and Ehrman, 2005)! There is only a seventy-three percent concordance between the extant Mss (Aland and Aland, 1995). Dogmatists know that as soon as the corruption of the NT Mss – and their attestation in similarly corrupted patristic witnesses –is widely acknowledged, their claims of Biblical infallibility crumbles.

The extant NT Mss are corrupt; the doctrines built on them are also corrupt.

Dogmatists and religious magisteria who’ve long enjoyed unquestioned power by invoking “inerrant,” “infallible” Scripture – to oppress Gays and other groups of people – must be very worried…and rightly so.
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bsmithslo
08:45 PM on 05/03/2010
Go to your local bookstore and browse through the dozens of translation of scripture. What is the percentage of agreement between them? Do they really say a bunch of different things? Is it hard to support any single fundamental doctrine from any of them? The same is true from the the surving Greek Ms. It's fun to go through and pick out the differences but they really don't amount to much other than honest errors and scribal clarifications where the original intent may be unclear.
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ez duz it
οὐκ ἔστιν θεός
11:08 PM on 05/03/2010
First things first: I have never addressed you disrespectfully and expect the same courtesy. Please do not tell me where to go or what to do. If you want to carry on a civil conversation, fine. You are not my parent and I am no child - I do not give you permission to speak to me as if I were. Seriously, if you cannot dialogue respectfully, that, in itself, speaks volumes of the God you purport to defend and the quality of your faith.

If every Mss were in perfect accord, there would be no need for multiple Bibles. If every fundamental doctrine were perfectly discernable, there would be no plurality of Christian denominations or variance of doctrines.
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ez duz it
οὐκ ἔστιν θεός
09:40 PM on 05/04/2010
You contend no fundamental Christian doctrine has been affected by textual corruption. Consider the divinity of Jesus.

I Tim 3:16 is a prime example where the earliest and best Mss refer to Jesus simply as one “who” was, or “the” one made manifest in the flesh. Later copies alter the text in the original manuscripts to state that he was “God” manifest in the flesh. The former reading, rather than the latter is supported by the best and earliest uncials (Sinaiticus, A*vid, C*, G.gr) as well as by 33 365 442 2127 syr.hmg,pal goth eth.pp Origen.lat Epiphanius Jerome Etherius.acc. to Theodoret Cyril.acc to Oeucumenius Liberatus. Furthermore, since the neuter relative pronoun must have arisen as an alteration of the masculine relative pronoun. Witnesses reading the masculine definite article (D* it.d g. 61. 86 vg…Augustine, etc.) No uncial prior to the 8th century supports the reading of Jesus as God, “theos.” All ancient versions presuppose either the definite article or the relative pronoun; no patristic writer prior to 365CE testifies to the reading of Jesus as “theos.” Clearly, NT texts and their witness in patristic sources subsequent to the dates indicated deliberately deviate from preceding Mss in order to affect dogmatic conformity. It is unsurprising that the textual corruption occurs shortly after the Council of Nicaea confirmed the doctrine of “homoousion (Gk)” or “consubstantialem (Lt).”
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ez duz it
οὐκ ἔστιν θεός
12:05 PM on 05/02/2010
One poster likened the inconsistencies between copies of the Greek New Testament (NT) manuscripts (Mss) and their translations, to the game of “telephone.” Scholarly? No. Apt? Yes.

Eager to circumvent the obvious vagaries of oral tradition and their attendant implications for NT texts, cmalloy insists the NT Mss were not “taken from an oral tradition”

Convenient.

They maintain an early inscription of the Gospels claiming early patristic sources as their witnesses – even though the fathers write 150 years after Jesus’ ministry.

None of the NT Mss prior to c 225 CE survives. Additionally, cmalloy frankly admits, “We don't have many of the originals of the patristic documents discussing the Gospels anyhow.”

They produce neither the original Gospels they say emerged in the earliest Christian communities nor the original early patristic sources they contend bear fecund, faithful witness to the Gospels.

Convenient.

They attribute the absence of the early Gospel Mss to the Diocletianic persecutions. Does this also account for the absence of original early patristic sources?

Convenient.

They appeal to Origen c 225 CE and other “early” patristic witnesses to the Gospels. Regarding the gospels’ textual integrity, Origen complained”

“The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions, as they please.”

Not so convenient.
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bsmithslo
08:48 PM on 05/03/2010
Give examples from which you believe the meaning of the text were altered in any way in relationship to this issue. Please.
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ez duz it
οὐκ ἔστιν θεός
10:46 PM on 05/03/2010
Read any of the 691 pages of "A Textual Commentary of the Greek New Testament" jointly published by the United Bible Societies and the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft. You will read to surfeit that it is a scholarly analysis, not a theological exegesis, of the discordance between the critical extant papyrus and vellum NT Mss.

If you can prove contrary, provide a primary or academic source saying none of the texts was altered. Please.
09:39 AM on 05/04/2010
Oh... I see you mentioned me, and have still not responded to my comments.

Well, I will go ahead and respond to this one.

I would disagree with your statement that I think the NT was not taken from an oral tradition. First, many of the letters in Paul, were written. They were letters. When you speak of the Gospels, many of the stories were from an oral tradition. Many of the people around Jesus could not read or write, so they would have to carry it on through an oral tradition.

I responded to your comments that the Bible did not exist before the 4th century CE. This is a falsity.

Where do you expect these documents to come from? The ancients did not have the technology, nor the resources, to store texts the way we do today. If I am to admit anything "frankly" then I admit your line of arguments are silly.
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Soulmentor
"To thine own self be true...."
04:08 PM on 04/29/2010
As a gay man who is a former ELCA and UCC member, I have done the research I needed to survive the constant bombardment of religious ignorance and fear of homosexuality. With a personal library on the issues longer than twice my arm span, I probably have a Masters degree in my head on the subject. I have been (but no longer) quite surprised by the stunning level of religious history ignorance among those who think they know what they are talking about as they pontificate about the evils of homosexuality and condescend about how confused and lost I am. It truly is amazing. They know nothing about the early church's blessings of same sex unions http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/Same-Sex_Unions_in_Premodern_Europe/0679751645//), how the "christian" hang up about sex developed among ascetic early religious leaders or the probability that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality because, in his time and for centuries before and after, NO ONE had much to say about it because it was just a common part of human sexuality that caused no "talk", let alone controversy. So today the Religious (self)Right(eous) prattle on about it as if their current beliefs about homosexuality have always been so and therefore must be correct...and a danger to humanity.
Sometimes all I can do is shake my head in wonder at them as THEY, arrogantly and condescendingly pity ME!!
09:49 AM on 04/24/2010
I think it's weird to include the word Queer, because I don't know any really Queer people who believe in God. Mostly just the LGBTs are the ones who still bother with that nonsense.
03:03 PM on 05/17/2010
I'm queer and I believe in God. Perhaps you not knowing any queer folks who believe in God doesn't actually mean none exist.
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11:07 PM on 04/22/2010
Just want to alert the headline writers here that one Lutheran synod is not the "Lutheran Church" . When the more conservative synods buy into this then you can celebrate. Meanwhile, keep that good Lutheran coffee brewin in the church basement...
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02:28 PM on 04/30/2010
I married into a Missouri Synod Lutheran family. A lapsed Catholic, I thought I knew what strict was. When I went to my first MSL wedding, I was shocked at how many times the reverand admonished the bride to obey her husband during the service. At my brother-in-law and father-in-law's funeral services...both of whom were good people but not regular church goers, I was surprised and saddened to hear during the services that even though they were good people they might or might not be in heaven because good works don't count, only church attendance and strict belief. My husband and I raised our son to question everything and to be a free thinker. Today he is a good and thoughtful man who respects women and the LGBT community.
I wouldn't hold my breath that the Missouri Synod (or the RCC for that matter) will change any time soon.
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Timma
nihil habentes omnia posidentes
10:08 PM on 04/22/2010
Hooray for the ELCA. But amid all the celebration let's bear in mind others who balzed the trail. The United Church of Christ has embraced ordained GLBT and the GLBT community since the 1970's. In1972 the UCC ordained their first first openly gay minister, the Rev. William R. Johnson. For thirty years follwoing this historic leap the UCC urged and fought for equal rights for homosexual citizens. And in 2005 the UCC became the first leadership body of a large U.S. church to support equal marriage rights for same-sex couples. Welcome aboard ELCA!
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Cacaoatl
02:58 PM on 04/22/2010
How come Jesus is silent on homosexuality? Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality. You can read all 4 canonical gospels and never once find a reference to "man lying with man" or "woman lying with woman". Jesus condemns 4 types of people:

1.The rich.
2. Hypocrites
3. Those who get rich off of other people's sincere religious beliefs.
4. The uncharitable and those who give only to be seen giving.
03:56 PM on 04/22/2010
And people who don't buy into everything he says. You know, vast majority of humanity
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Olaugh
If you are sure, you've stopped listening.
08:41 AM on 04/23/2010
Where does he do that? I know that some organized Christian communities condemn non-believers but as far as I know Jesus never did. Now I don't expect you to go out and read the Bible or study Christian history or theology, because it apears that you don't give credence to it. However, you might want to resist making blanket statements on things where your knowledge is incomplete. I for instence would not make statements concerning Hinduism, as I have only a cursory familiarity with that religion.
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Norwegiano
Gay Lefty - admitted and proud.
04:25 PM on 04/22/2010
Ever play the game "Telephone"? Where you whisper something into a neighbor's ear once and they try to whisper the same thing to their neighbor and so on...until the final recipient of the message repeats it?

It is almost always different fromthe original message, even with ten people playing.

Now add a hundred years from Christ's death to when the 4 Gospels were written down. Consider that the writing took place in widely different places and times. Consider that the texts have been translated for centuries from one language to another and back again, over and over again...until Guttenberg made it possible for its mass production.

What are the odds that the original message is even CLOSE to the same today?
11:05 PM on 04/22/2010
One of my favorite websites is mediamatters.org:

Let's review your statements:

Now add a hundred years from Christ's death to when the 4 Gospels were written down.

False.

The four Gospels were written down before 130(ish) CE.

Consider that the writing took place in widely different places and times.

False.

The composition of the Gospels took place within decades of each other and in the same region.

Consider that the texts have been translated for centuries from one language to another and back again, over and over again...until Guttenberg made it possible for its mass production.

I don't suppose you've ever studied the NT in an academic setting, have you?
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Olaugh
If you are sure, you've stopped listening.
08:49 AM on 04/23/2010
You might say the same for any historical accounts. After all look at the twisting of reality that can happen over the course of a week with rumors (see the health care debate). By your arguement we would have to reject anything that we didn't experience personaly. Now I am familiar enough with Descartes that I fully accept that we can't prove the existence of anything outside of our own thoughts but you can't live that way. If you choose to reject Christian teachings, that is all well and good but please understand that the arguement you just used doesn't pass rational muster.
02:57 PM on 04/22/2010
Would anyone out in the 'etherworld' disagree that the 10 commandments, are really nothing but guidelines of peace, inner peace and world peace. Every conflict in this world, any war or fight, between human or nation, that has ever been has be a result of breaking one or all, of the 10 commandments. If every denomination or religion obeyed the 10 commandments, there would be no horrors, or hunger. It says do not lie on your neighbor, do not mess around with someone else's spouse, do not steal or envy what other people have. That envy is the biggy in my book, so many murders and robberies and wars come from envy. One day I would like to have a blog and consider each commandment, one by one. Does anyone know if one already exists?
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Norwegiano
Gay Lefty - admitted and proud.
03:37 PM on 04/22/2010
I am sure it does, but I could not tell you where.

I do agree that the basic tenets of the Ten Commandments are solid ethical laws to abide by, for the most part. Murder is clearly wrong. Lying, cheating, coveting, all are bad things. But remember, the most important Commandments were to have no other gods besides the Head Honcho, and not to take his name in vain. If you are one who feels passionately about a higher power, then this works fine and dandy, no matter WHAT religion you are a part of, be it Christianity, Islam or Hinduism.
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DAVROS1
09:59 PM on 04/22/2010
The first four commandments are not about morality at all. They are about a jealous god ensuring the obediance of his servants. The six commandments that are left are basic moral tenets that existed long before the bible. They existed in cultures all over the world, cultures that never heard of god or Jesus.
09:24 AM on 04/23/2010
Can you point to where the "moral" commandments came from? I'm just looking for a train of moral thought with an origin.
02:40 PM on 04/22/2010
All of us want to live forever , free of disease, poverty, sorrow, and discontent. We all want to stay young, healthy, and happy. This is how the Garden of Eden was meant to be before our mother and father, Adam and Eve, chose to do things, their way. Satan only 'encouraged' mis-behaviour. But really Adam and Eve exercised free will and followed their passions. And all of their children have been subject to the lusts and passions of our first parents. Now we have an opportunity, thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, to one day regain happiness and eternal life. This will only happen if we exercise 'freedom of choice' and choose to acknowledge God's will, over our own will. One man has said that he would rather rule Hell than be a servant in Heaven. But Jesus said a door keeper in Heaven is greater than any ruler in Hell (paraphase). Choose well.
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Norwegiano
Gay Lefty - admitted and proud.
03:47 PM on 04/22/2010
checkabalance, the myth of Adam and Eve predates the old Testament by a long shot, and really comes from the religions of Anhcient Sumeria, the original culture that spawned Babylonia.

Both the legends of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, as well as the Great Deluge and Noah both have roots in a different faith...adopted bythe Jews during their time of slavery under Nebuchadnezzer in Babylon, and written down a couple thousand years prior to the histories of Moses and so on...

Check out Gilgamesh.

The point is that most ancient religions that began in the middle east all had common myths and legends, so attributing the concept of original sin with Adam and Eve is simply uninformed. Speak with any theologian if you doubt my words.

By the way Horus...an ancient Egyptian god, was born of a virgin, had twelve disciples, healed the sick and raised the dead, was cruicified and rose fromthe dead 3 days later and ascended into the skies. Sound familiar?
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Angel1999
Microbiologist & Historian
04:04 PM on 04/22/2010
Nice post.
09:30 AM on 04/23/2010
I would agree that there are common mythologies.

However, how is the concept of original sin residing in Adam and Eve uninformed?

Second, you name some of these similarities between Horus and Jesus. What are your sources for these? Also, where do they contrast?
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ez duz it
οὐκ ἔστιν θεός
07:08 PM on 04/22/2010
You say: "Jesus said a door keeper in Heaven is greater than any ruler in Hell."

Really?

Give us the (non-existent) quote you falsely attribute to Jesus. NOW!

We understand you. Your hatred of Gay people means more to you than even taking the time to quote the Bible - the very book you invoke to condemn Gay persons and their "behavior" - with any shred of accuracy.

Even though you condemn Gay persons, GOD condemns you (How awesome is THAT - Praise God!): "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Matthew 7:22-23)."

Not only that, but even though you want to condemn the "behavior" of Gay persons, and presume that God is on your side, God condemns YOUR behavior. Again, Praise God!

"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things (Rom 2:1).

I rejoice because at the very moment you invoke God to condemn me (a gay man) and my sisters and brothers, God condemns…YOU!
09:33 AM on 04/23/2010
To be fair, he said he was paraphrasing. Also, I don't see where he was attacking gay people.

On a side note, homophobes in Christianity really irk me too.
07:58 PM on 04/24/2010
Take it easy ez duz it. You'll herniate yourself.
02:22 PM on 04/22/2010
I do support the 'separation of Church and State'. But will the voter separate Church and State at a ballot box? Do homosexuals separate church and state? Obviously not. Why are homosexuals and lesbians taking a political issue and bringing it in the Church? A married preacher cannot bring his girlfriend to the Church and demand acceptance. The Bible says 'marriage is holy, and the bed (sexual intercourse) is not defiled'. And again the Bible says explicitly, verse by verse, that men having sex with men, and women having sex with women is not allowed. The Bible goes on to say, as you know, that everything that is sinful, does not have to be spelled out. For example, pedophiles are never mentioned.
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Angel1999
Microbiologist & Historian
03:48 PM on 04/22/2010
But the argument for acceptance of anything homosexual is not directed at churches. These churches are deciding for themselves that this is what they're going to do. It's not being forced on them by a government entity.

In regard to civil rights issues that gays demand, these are aimed at government agencies whose religiously based laws and rules demand differential treatment between gays and straights. For instance, the government bestows a number of decidedly non-religious benefits on married couples. Bestowing these rights upon gay couples who enter into a civil arrangement (religiously blessed or otherwise) is not in any way conflating church and state. No church is required to perform a religious ceremony and thus church and state is still separated.
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Norwegiano
Gay Lefty - admitted and proud.
04:01 PM on 04/22/2010
Very good point. You cannot have it both ways...seperation of Church and State, but yet undue influence OVER civil law based on the teachings of the very religion it is to remain seperate from!

A church can decide what is right and wrong for themselves, of course. If they choose to to recognize gay marriages or priests or pastors, then that is completely their call. From the perspective of the State, there should be no logical reason for banning it other than biblical ordinance and public sentiment...and sentiment is often times NOT good for the public at all. Ask the Germans during WW2. They can tell you first hand.
01:17 PM on 04/22/2010
We all tend to 'worship our own sins'. Then we demand others to agree with our sins, and worship too. We treat sin as a fad. You should see me in platform shoes and wide lapel suits. But the Word of God does not try to make a 'fashion statement'. No amount of 'enlightenment' will change the biblical law of sexual sin.
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Norwegiano
Gay Lefty - admitted and proud.
04:10 PM on 04/22/2010
You have a very narrow view of the Bible, I am afraid. It is a remarkable book that speaks volumes of what humanity was like two thousand years ago. It provides meaningful guidance about living life with humility, grace and modesty. It provides guideposts on how we can empower one another for the benefit of the world. These things are not in dispute here.

By attributing the Bible to the literal Word of God is your biggest mistake. These men who wrote these texts were MEN. Sure, there is a possibility that they were vessels from which the "words" of god sprung forth, but there is also a possibility that something got lost in translation, not to mention two thousand years worth of editing, rearranging, emphasizing and stripping.

It's like trusting a TV Guide from March, 1965 to tell you what's on TV tonight.
09:54 AM on 04/24/2010
you obviously don't know what it's like to be gay. i wonder why so many people who don't know anything about growing up gay, existing as a gay person in a world that hates so much, why so many people who don't have the experience or knowledge to talk about the subject seem to have so much to say about it. like bob dylan said, don't criticize what you can't understand.
08:13 PM on 04/24/2010
jthor; Good post. I've a brother who is a Baptist minister. His son is gay. Though each refuses to relinquish their stance/belief, they love each other and have a close relationship. Now my nephew has not exactly "come out" to the rest of the family but by virtue of my brother sincerely reaching out to the rest of us, we all know.

We are a Christian family. I don't know to what degree each of us is or is not "fundamental" I only know what I believe. I love and respect my nephew and am all too happy to leave the judging up to God.

Because of this experience, I do feel that LGBT are sorley misunderstood by mainstream churches who seem to want there to be a special place in hell for gays...The Bible speaks out against adultery 1,000 times more than homosexuality- gay people do not have exclusivity.
12:43 PM on 04/22/2010
The Kingdom of God is not a Democracy. It is a Kingdom. One obeys the King, if you choose to dwell in this Kingdom. It is a choice to obey. No one can force you to obey, you have free will.
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Angel1999
Microbiologist & Historian
01:59 PM on 04/22/2010
Exactly, which is why no one should be forced to obey rules (and laws) that are based in a religious context. I am not suggesting by that that we should therefore be allowed to murder whomever we wish, but the laws against homosexuality are designed to prevent behavior that does not infringe upon the physical well-being of others.

So although I think your statement was intended to support the position against gay rights, if taken to its ultimate conclusion it actually supports the separation of Church and State.
02:23 PM on 04/22/2010
I do support the 'separation of Church and State'. But will the voter separate Church and State at a ballot box? Do homosexuals separate church and state? Obviously not. Why are homosexuals and lesbians taking a political issue and bringing it in the Church? A married preacher cannot bring his girlfriend to the Church and demand acceptance. The Bible says 'marriage is holy, and the bed (sexual intercourse) is not defiled'. And again the Bible says explicitly, verse by verse, that men having sex with men, and women having sex with women is not allowed. The Bible goes on to say, as you know, that everything that is sinful, does not have to be spelled out. For example, pedophiles are never mentioned.
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DAVROS1
02:26 PM on 04/22/2010
This is exactly why your king should have no say in my democracy!
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Angel1999
Microbiologist & Historian
03:45 PM on 04/22/2010
Hear, hear!
12:40 PM on 04/22/2010
For words recorded thousands of years ago, the Bible is consistent. What is sin today, was sin yesterday, will be sin tomorrow. This is because God is a repecter of no race, creed, color, national origin or sexual orientation. All are commanded to obey the same laws. The higly educated and the illiterate, the wealthy and the impoverished, the strong and the weak, are commanded to obey the exact same laws. Jew or gentile, Protestant or Catholic. All in the Body of Christ are commanded to obey the exact same laws. Granted people misinterpret or deliberately cause others to misunderstand for financial gains and power, but God treats every living person the same.
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Norwegiano
Gay Lefty - admitted and proud.
01:06 PM on 04/22/2010
Ask yourself why, what and if?

1. Why is it a sin for two men or two women to express physical love for one another, if it comes from the heart?

2. What harm does two men or two women loving one another in God's eyes cause ME?

3. If a man who said he speaks to God approached you on the street, and told you that God wanted you to jump off a cliff, would you?
01:35 PM on 04/22/2010
Homosexuality, polygamy, adultery, fornication all feel good, and all are sin. Each is sin because God has written that it is a sin. It relates to Satan, who was called Lucipher, the bearer of Light. Satan was the first 'PERVERT'. He wanted to have his way, and changed his nature of obedience to disobedience. He is the true author of 'If it feels good do it' and 'Greed is good'. We all have weaknesses, the problem is demanding that our weaknesses be honored as strengths and empowerments. No one will ever go to Hell for Sinning, we will go to Hell for refusing to ask Jesus directly for the forgiveness of our sins. If anyone says that he or she has not sinned, then you are a liar and the truth is not in you.We must control our passion because one day, if we choose to accept, we will belong to the actual family of God.
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Michele Himmel
01:55 PM on 04/22/2010
1) Murder also comes from the heart of man. The heart cannot be trusted. Homosexuality rebels against the order God ordained in Genesis for the continuation of the human race.
2) It harms me because sin is like a cancer and spreads if unchecked. It never confines itself to the people sinning. It aslways affects others somehow.
3) No. Because God has given me a brain to use and God would never ask me to commit suicide.
12:35 PM on 04/22/2010
You may be overstating things a bit . The ELCA still doesn't offically bless or recognize same sex unions. And says Marriage is between and man and a woman. True we're not firing Gay and Lesbian clergy anymore or putting the churches that called those clergy on trial. That's a HUGE step.

Yet The ELCA approved "social statement" on sexuality ties itself into knots to AVOID saying being Gay or Lesbian is no different than being heterosexual. Instead we get bizzare paragraphs about "bound concience" and "living together faithfully".

The same assembly that approved changes for Gay clergy , refused to denounce repairative therapy. The ELCA still cannot answer the basic question of equality. Not are Gays and Lesbians " equally welcome" or "equally loved by God" . But is Gay sexuality NO DIFFERENT than Straight Sexuality, and just AS MUCH a gift from God.

The ELCA says we ALL are sinners . Yet there is the undertone that beign Gay is a little "more sinful" than straight , because it's "contrary to Christian Tradition." Well eating shrimp l and allowing women to speak in public is against established "traditions" from scripture, but the ELCA doesnt feel the need to "study" that.

Don't misunderstand, I am thrilled by the steps we have taken. But the truth is when you look at communities of faith like the United Church of Christ, and it's approach, it becomes clear that the ELCA still has a long way to go.