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Richard (RJ) Eskow

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Vetoing Democracy: In Athens or Washington, Elites Still Call the Shots

Posted: 11/04/11 06:20 PM ET

This week was a sharp reminder that the ancient ideal of democracy is just as threatened -- and to some, just as threatening -- as it's ever been. In government offices in Athens, G20 meeting rooms in Cannes, and "Super Committee" chambers in Washington, we learned that there are still places where the will of the people can be overruled by the whims of the powerful.

From the Parthenon to the Potomac, it was the same story: Elites still hold veto power over the democratic process, and they're not afraid to use it.

Democracy: 'Radical,' 'Irrational,' 'Dangerous'

Ironically, this week's ferment began in the country that's usually credited with creating democracy. In many ways the Greek economy couldn't be more different from our own. The government's fiscal problems there are due in large part to widespread corruption and massive tax evasion -- not tax breaks, tax evasion -- which are very different from our own problems. The government's finances dramatically worse than our own -- almost like night and day -- and a default could create the next major financial crisis.

A certain level of fear and concern was understandable when Greek President George Papandreou announced there would be a referendum on the new bailout plan imposed on his country. The global economy is still unstable, top-heavy, and still riddled with too-big-to-fail institutions. In a worst-case scenario, Greece could trigger another financial meltdown.

Yet the fear was rarely balanced with an understanding of what's really happening in Greece. There was no acknowledgement that the bailout's terms might be grossly unfair (they are), that they're likely to make a terrible situation even worse (they will), or that Greece is in chaos, misery, and despair. (It is.)

And what was most striking was the assumption the elite -- the 1%, if you will -- have veto power over the democratic process. In most of the commentary that flowed from the powerful and the press, a surprising number of world leader didn't even acknowledge that Greece had the right to its own democratic decision-making process.

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, whose nation will benefit from "bipartisan" U.S. actions to create a free trade agreement between the two countries, said that "The world has plunged into fears again because of the Greek prime minister's radical step to hold a referendum." Closer to home, French President Sarkozy said that "the Greek's gesture is irrational and, from their point of view, dangerous."

The first part of that statement is a slur against democracy. The second part is, of course, a threat.

What's the Greek word for 'shafted'?

Few are asking who created the Greek debt problem, or who benefited. As in the United States, deficit-creating behavior primarily served the wealthy, the powerful, and the banks. Tax collections for corporations and the wealthy have been very low in Greece. And while tax evasion is commonly for everyone from taxi drivers to millionaires, it takes a lot of cheating cabbies to equal one rich tax dodger.

Bankers didn't give Greece these loans out of kindness, either. They saw an opportunity and they took it. That's why they're being asked to take "haircuts" and lose part of the loan repayment (a reasonable measure that hasn't been yet considered in the US mortgage crisis.)

Greeks are struggling with devastating levels of unemployment, a declining standard of living, and widespread social unrest. While the austerity measures imposed on it do include tax hikes and measures to reduce tax evasion, they will have an especially devastating impact on already hard-hit middle class Greeks. They're the ones who went to work, paid their taxes (wage earners were disproportionately taxed because of the evasion), and paid into their Social Security and health funds with the expectation these services would be available when they were needed.

It doesn't matter now. They won't get their say. Once again the elites were given veto power over democracy. A "bipartisan" revolt of politicians in both major parties made sure of that, and today George Papandreou is looking forward to joining the swelling ranks of Greece's unemployed.

The public's widespread dissatisfaction is understandable, and this stifling of democracy should raise even more fears for Greece's future stability than the referendum did. What will happen if the Greek people continued to be denied a place at the bargaining table as their fate is decided? Given that nation's troubled past, and its tormented present, there's always John F. Kennedy's quote to consider: Those who make peaceful evolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.

Elites Only

But what does this have to do with us? We certainly don't face Greek-level problems. In fact, it serves the elite's narrative to suggest otherwise. Our currency is the dollar, which helps a great deal. We're a commanding world economy. We have the money and resources to fix our joblessness problem, if we only had the will, and we're not part of a larger group like the European Community.

Bet we are part of the G20, which this week reaffirmed its obsession on austerity measures even as Europe sinks under the weight of those already imposed. Washington's Powers That Be are still obsessing about austerity, too.

Here, as in Europe, public opinion is expected to take a back seat to the elites. Yet another poll has been released which shows that a majority of people in all age groups oppose cutting Social Security to fix the deficit. Past polls have shown that strong majorities of Republicans, independents, and even Tea Party member oppose such measures.

Yet despite the strong public objections, and despite the fact that there's overwhelming evidence these cuts are unnecessary and counterproductive, an elected "Super Committee" is likely to recommend them anyway. The usual Congressional rules have been waived in order to force their proposal to a simple up-or-down vote, with no possibility of filibuster and no chance to offer amendments. And US politicians will be under as much pressure to vote for this austerity measure as their Greek counterparts were.

Vetoing Democracy

The same week that democracy was under siege in Greece, the "Super Committee" heard from a blue-ribbon panel representing the austerity elite: a Republican hater of Social Security recipients; a Democratic member of Morgan Stanley's Board of Directors; a Republican ex-Senator; and an economist aligned with the Democratic establishment advocates for entitlement cuts. The activities of all four been funded by Republican anti-government-spending billionaire Pete Peterson.

In words that echoed those of the South Korean and French Presidents, the quartet told the unelected committee that if it fails to offer austerity measures which the public rejects, "We haven't got a prayer and neither have you." The elites have spoken: The public is to be ignored. Democracy's been vetoed.

Here's what they didn't teach us in civics class: Democracy has always been controversial. "Democracy... is a charming form of government," said Plato, "full of variety and disorder; and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequals alike." He could sound like a Tea Partier at times. "Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy," he said, " and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty."

Plato's aversion to democracy is shared by a lot of powerful people these days. But politicians, especially those whose party derives its name from the democratic principle, would be better off remembering another Greek philosopher, Aristotle, who said that "The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law."

Representatives from groups that represent Social Security and Medicare recipients, the disabled, and the elderly requested an opportunity to address the Super Committee. They wanted to present their case for preserving these programs, a position that's supported by compelling evidence and supported by majorities in all political parties and of all generations.

Their requests were ignored.

 

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This week was a sharp reminder that the ancient ideal of democracy is just as threatened -- and to some, just as threatening -- as it's ever been. In government offices in Athens, G20 meeting rooms i...
This week was a sharp reminder that the ancient ideal of democracy is just as threatened -- and to some, just as threatening -- as it's ever been. In government offices in Athens, G20 meeting rooms i...
 
 
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01:55 PM on 11/07/2011
If anyone watched Mr Abramoff on 60 Minutes last night. I feel like my eyes were finally opened to how undemocratic our government really is. I'm ashamed of my naiveté. These elite milk the system to their advantage and those that work for them get a piece of the payoff through jobs as lobbyists or comped with free booze and posh meals. I'm heart sick to see what our public servants are up to. 9/11 was an unfortunate event in comparison. This is a catastrophe.
01:01 PM on 11/07/2011
Perhaps one of the big television stations could start a new show (Hey I'm pitching this, anyone listening?) We can call it "Pimp my Government" You take one Representative or Senator and follow him as he/she meets with lobbyists. We get to see the meeting and the inevitable pay off along with the reading of the bill or amendment to a bill that the lobbyist wrote and handed to said congressperson and in the end we watch as helpless as we already are, as our interests are sold out to the highest bidder. Now that's must watch TV.
11:29 AM on 11/07/2011
Let's hope a deal isn't made.
10:31 AM on 11/07/2011
The illusion of "democracy" is just a method of control, you are suppose to say I am free, haliloya, play by the rules and be a docile, obedient member of society instead of questioning the system itself, so it should come to no surprise that when real decisions has to be made, your opinion means nothing.
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Aikaterina
A Greek-American living in California
10:06 AM on 11/07/2011
I'm certain that if a democratic, popular vote or referendum on cutting-gutting-privatizing Social Security were held in the US today, an overwhelming majority of the public would say "NO" to such measures.

Sadly, those on the "Super-Committee" are all Congressional representatives, who are guaranteed full salary and the very government-run, taxpayer-subsidized health care benefits they demonize as "socialist" for life, and into which they don't pay a dime. Hence, they don't care about S.S. or Medicare-Medicaid.

Ask those former and current folks from/in Congress if they'd buy private health insurance on the "free-market" as they advocate. Ask them to pay involuntary FICA payroll taxes and be reliant on S.S. & Medicare rather than their lavish retirement, which is guaranteed even if they're expelled, convicted (of a crime) or resign from office.

Those folks are taking in hoards of cash, gifts, perks, etc. from contributors: defense contractors, Norquist, big oil-pharma, health insurers and the banks. The banks, particularly are salivating at the prospects of S.S. going private, so they can get their hands on PAYROLL TAXES to increase their profits.

The folks on the Committee are getting wealthy, and taking orders from their benefactors, in essence, selling (pimping) their constituents' lives for their own personal gain, and re-election.
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Alexey Braguine
Author of Kingmaker, a novel
07:49 AM on 11/07/2011
Indeed, the elites rule, but there is a huge difference between the European crisis and the US. The crisis in the states is in great part caused by what can be called obsene ammount of spending for military force and the expenses of war. The oficial published American defense budget is 600 billion a tear.That is ten times higher than Russia's With all the hidden programs, the US spends 1.2 trillion. No nation can afford this sort of exess. The convenient aspect is that by cutting the military expeditures by half, and diverting this money to fix the economy, the US economic crisis vanishes.Of course if the ruling elite allows it.
12:55 AM on 11/07/2011
Yes and no. The issue is that we are in a representative democracy. Ie we're supposed to elect representatives for us. The issue though is that most people have absolutely no clue about the economy society etc... for example many people elect people because of their stance on ABORTION FOR OTHER PEOPLE (wtf???) instead of what's going on with yourself and the economy.

At the core, many voters just don;t do their due diligence, don't look for information, are not educated, and they elect the people who just promise more things. You get the democracy you crave for...

Thus what about the greek referendum: first is the bailout "unfair"? hmmm let me think, was it unfair to give subsidy to Greece for 15 years because of the Euro and inclusion in the EU? yes to begin with. Are the terms of the bailout themselves unfair? no. What could be inferred as unfair are the terms of the austerity package. WHICH IS AN ISSUE OF INTERNAL GREEK POLITICS! ie it comes from election taken by the greek themselves...

It is a widely known fact that Greece abandoning the euro or the eurozone would cost the country a huge part of its GDP, and kick-off huge inflation and shortages . But this belief lies on basic economic analysis that most of the population does not know and thus the risk of a referendum is about people thinking "it cannot be worse" while in fact, it can...
05:54 AM on 11/07/2011
F&F.
08:00 AM on 11/07/2011
If the Greek people were allowed to have a referendum, it's likely the majority would have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by all the scare talk about how awful things would get if they didn't agree to the deal. Yet in truth, what they'll get by agreeing to the deal is MORE austerity measures - measures which have already plunged the majority of Greeks into poverty, driven up crime and suicide rates, greatly increased the number of homeless and hungry, and cost many people their livelihoods and futures. And for those increased austerity measures, they'll get more and more unpayable debt, which will keep Greece in desperation for three generations or more.

If, conversely, they'd refuse the bailout, default on the debt, get out of the EU, and return to the drachma, then they'll have difficult times ahead but without the insupportable burden of debt. Numerous countries have gone that route and contrary to all the scare talk, their economies recover within a few years. Continued and increased austerity measures are intended to prevent the banks and investors from having to take too much of a haircut while inflicting the pain on the people who did NOT cause the problem. That they plunge the country into an economic death spiral is of no import to the global elite once they've gotten their pound of flesh. Eventually the Greeks will have no choice but to default. Better now than prolonging the suffering and defaulting later.
08:20 AM on 11/07/2011
except that Greece is not Argentina in two respects (i) they have no natural resources and (ii) their standard of living now is much higher than any other country that has defaulted before (thus the economy is much more fragile and would lose much more from being cut from the world)
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TeraWatt60
Cogito Ergo Sum
06:04 PM on 11/06/2011
Imagine if the United States had held a referendum on the Bush Bailout of Wall St, or at the least the strings that would have been attached. Imagine if we had had a plebiscite on the raising taxes on billionaires as opposed to coddling them and shafting the poor, old and Middle Class? I'm not talking about the phony Teapublicans and their lies that got them elected (all we have seen from them is NOTHING about jobs and everything about silly "social issues" ). I'm talking a direct vote where the people directly choose whether to side with millionaires or medicare recipients...would any Teapublican really take that chance?
06:53 AM on 11/07/2011
I hear ya TeraWatt60. When you look back to Paulson's original proposal, it started out with 'no strings attached' & 'get out of jail free cards for everyone' & then, after wrangling through both houses, it ended up 'with no strings ...

Please see "Text of Draft Proposal for Bailout Plan"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/business/21draftcnd.html

Please note the 'get out of jail free' section:

"Sec. 8. Review.
Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."

Please note the protection of the bankers & shills (henceforth known as the ones who got us INTO this mess) at the expense of the taxpayers (henceforth known as the easy marks):

"Sec. 3. Considerations.
In exercising the authorities granted in this Act, the Secretary shall take into consideration means for--
(1) providing stability or preventing disruption to the financial markets or banking system; and
(2) protecting the taxpayer."

One of the worst things about this imbroglio is ...
the Con Game continues ...
08:03 AM on 11/07/2011
Thanks for posting those details. If we had a free media, the American people would have heard details of this deal. Of course, we got infotainment instead, while the business of corporate government went on behind the scenes, making deals that were for the sole benefit of the 1% and to the detriment of the rest of us.
10:34 AM on 11/07/2011
Before the US hold any referendum, they would first be made to believe they do not need to hold an referendum, and if that fails, they will be made to believe they should vote for what interest groups approves. Election funding matters for a reason: the more money you have, the more control you have over people's thoughts, and any politician knows, if you spend enough money, you can convince Americans into believing in anything.
05:59 PM on 11/06/2011
The elites have always been calling the shots for many centuries, so what's else is new. If you want change then you must have a complete social-economic revolution across the world. Of course, the elite will fight you in order to protect their power hold on the government, and economic power at all costs. The world is not fair nor equalled for everyone. Man-up: fight or flee.
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Peter Combs
Amused by the illogical..no, NOT a Republican
10:34 AM on 11/06/2011
The ELites?....seriously?,,,Greece mess comes from 50 years of building unfunded pension plans, sky high tax rates that NO ONE wanted to support, people demanding to retire at the age of 50 ...a Social Welfare program that sucks in 40% of the nations payroll system exclusive of Income Taxes which became unsupportable in the end...so the Greeks..just borrowed more and more and more...

Greeces Democracy is what caused the mess, not the rich...their are not enough Rich folks in Greece to make a difference. The reason everyone dodges taxes there is simple...they ALL want the Benefits....and no one wants to pay for it...

The People of Greece demanded and created the mess they are in...not the Rich, not the Bankers, but the Greek votors...they wanted a free ride, and they had one for a long time...now its over.

Pointing fingers at the Banks, "The Elite"...or anyone but themselves is just the ultimate in Buck Passing...Democratic Countrys that go broke...cause ther own messes...we did, the Greeks did, the Irish, Spain, Italy
Genders
Love, Tolerance, Enlightenment
01:24 PM on 11/06/2011
You forget the little devil in their ear? GS professionaly advising them fraudulently?

The bankster crashed the world economy, and Greece got caught up in it.

That's it.

Had the banksters not crashed the economy, Greece would have probably been fine.

But the Banksters love it when you ignore the 14T$ they get from our FED, and blame the people, and democracy for our problems.
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Peter Combs
Amused by the illogical..no, NOT a Republican
05:23 PM on 11/06/2011
Ahhl..the Greeks approached GOldman Sachs for a deal when the EU Bankers told them they HAD to cut their Debt..and GOldman's gave the a Derivitives package to present the appearance of a reduction.. GOldmans doesn;t care , nbor should they care why the Greek GOvernment wanted it..Recently the Greek gov got caught again lieing about having cut their overhead..and had infact increased their debt and size of Government..

BLaming GOldman's is silly..the Greeks wanted an angle..and they got in one.

As for the Bank bailouts..you seem to forget something, the big banks paid all of it back over a year and a half ago..and the Fed had it's most profitable year in it;s history..making over 70 Billion last year on loans..

Our Government gives the power to these banks..and YOU and the rest of America electred them...stop whinning like a child and vote them out..including Obama..he is after all GOldman Sach's man..as well as JP Morgan and GE's..smarten up and stop buying the blame game..we have the government WE voted for..100%
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seanny53
Things fall apart, the center cannot hold
02:17 PM on 11/06/2011
The Greek people should still have the right to vote on these issues,and the right to get it wrong. It was the elites who declared otherwise. Why do they hate democracy?
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Peter Combs
Amused by the illogical..no, NOT a Republican
05:28 PM on 11/06/2011
they do have the right to vote..absolutely..and they also will have to deal with the results of that vote and frankly, the Greek people will tear the country down when all of the money runs out. If they say no to austerity, they will be bankrupt and in chaos within days..

No bank will loan a dime to Greece without concessions that makes the EU Bank deal look like the deal of the century. ALready Greek Bonds are paying 18%...and rising. WHihc means the country is now about as credit worthy as Somalia.
06:41 AM on 11/07/2011
Similar like Peter Combs here I say that Greeks had all rights to hold a referendum; I think most of the "shock" about it was just about the timing.

On the one hand there is the (probably even negligible) odd timing that Prime Minister Papandreou didn't inform his partners in this deal (=the heads of government/state of the other 16 nations) while they were negotiating.

What is more important is this: On the one hand, Greece requires to be loaned! another 8bn from the first bailout deal end of November/ early December. A Greek referendum is limited regarding the deal: They cannot (as some seem to imply) vote down the reform/austerity part but still expect that they will get the money. Without a deal, without the money, Greece has to default. But with an imminent, real chance of full default, the other 16 nations cannot loan additional 8bn. They are by oath sworn in to protect the interest of their people best. So, it was a challenging task to alone hold a referendum in this narrow timeframe. There was certainly no time left to renegotiate or anything. It was an "all in" move.
10:10 AM on 11/06/2011
Amazing how you distort every item into self-serving populism. The Greeks have lied about their deficit levels for years with government with a deficit of 12.7% vs the "official" 6%. Greek government workers are paid on average 35% more than Germans and more than 5x the average salary of Slovakians. They have borrowed massive amounts. Their pension system allows 600 professions including the very dangerous pastry chefs, radio announcers, & masseuses to retire at age 50 with a 95% of salary government pension.

Their ridiculous public government system of abuses from the ones above include a completely dysfunctional tax system where cheating on taxes and other government services is rampant.

For this, the other EU nations (mostly Germany) including Slovakia where average salary is about $1,000 and who played by the rules are expected to bail them out. This cost will be born by these countries and citizens. Estimates include that every family in Britain will have to pay about $20K to bail out the piggish behavior of the Greeks. So instead of populism about their right to vote for austerity, they gave up the right when their profligate spending and corrupt government got them in the mess. You should be thinking about how the rest of Europe will suffer and in particular countries like Slovakia who are poor, played by the rules and must now pay up for Greece.
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seanny53
Things fall apart, the center cannot hold
02:20 PM on 11/06/2011
Europe's mistake was the Eurozone. Democracy includes the right to get it wrong. Getting it wrong does not mean forfeiting democracy, and only a tyrannical elitist would suggest that it does.
03:26 PM on 11/06/2011
Ad hominem attacks aside, by your accounting we should not have a representative democracy but rather put ever major event up to a popular vote. When the PM in Greece suggested this, he was not interested in Democracy. He was interested in saving his own skin. Even his own party realized that tanking a pre-negotiated deal that has a chance of saving the Euro (and not decimating ours as well) is rational. If you would choose to throw a voting wrench as a parliamentary trick in every crisis, then you choose fundamental dysfunction over sensible government under the misguided term "democracy".

BTW - if you want the ultimate in democratic processes, then do not let legislators decide on the budget but let every American allocate their taxes to the line items they like not some politician chooses.
Linda from Deerfield
Paying attention
08:40 AM on 11/06/2011
You, sir, make us begin to understand why today's conservatives feel compelled to scream incessantly about liberty -- because they are undermining it and hope that we will not notice.
10:40 AM on 11/06/2011
When conservatives posture about "individual freedom" what really drives them is having the freedom to exploit, pollute, and dominate.
08:56 AM on 11/07/2011
Under their version of "freedom," it means we're all equally free. Corporations and banks are free of regulation, free to pollute, free to engage in corrupt practices, free to buy politicians to have tax codes and any remaining law written in their favor, and of course free to exploit workers at will.

We're also equally free to come up with $1 million to buy our own politicians. If we "choose" not to do that, then we're free to defend ourselves as best we can from the unfettered power of banks and corporations.
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themodernleader
05:28 AM on 11/06/2011
An excellent appraisal. And Aristotle was the first scholar to study various forms of government with the tools of the scientific method. Neither Plato, who was an ideologue for the powerful, or Aristotle who didn't understand the relationship among motivation, knowledge and skill and opportunity in the success and failure of organizations. Modern masters of the art of exploitation and rule have the best academic and practical minds to persuade the masses of their diminishing role in the nature of the traditional administrative system of lords and serfs. Europe, that pathetic continent that has been terrorized repeatedly by banking-capitalistic monopolies has successfully corrupted the American government. Both continents are ripe for the union of their oligarchies with the rising empire of the east. The traditional dynasties of the east may be merged with the oligarchy of the west to envision a world wide empire of wealth supported by the force of arms. Stagnation and decline presented through lords and serfs for centuries may be the destiny of an overpopulated planet.
08:59 AM on 11/07/2011
Well said, Leader. I think you may in fact be describing the future. Our democracy has been being gradually eroded for years. It maintains the form but not the substance, while the actual governing consists of backroom deals between the leaders and the wealthy elite.

Americans need to realize not only what's going on but recognize that we're in this together with the people of most of the rest of the world. It's time for a global uprising.
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XtfrM2
Home to the best hyperbole in the world.
09:13 AM on 11/07/2011
"the actual governing consists of backroom deals between the leaders and the wealthy elite."

I think it's actually worse than that. It's becoming increasingly clear that governing consists of backroom deals brokered by the wealth elite for the wealthy elite. Our so-called leaders are merely the messengers and mechanics through which the deals come to pass.
05:19 AM on 11/06/2011
Greece alone is responsible for is own mess. Nobody forced it to fake its financials for admission to the EU. Nobody forced it to issue more debt than it can service. This nasty little country insisted on living beyond its means and now its time to pay the piper.
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seanny53
Things fall apart, the center cannot hold
02:22 PM on 11/06/2011
The Greek people should still have the right to vote on how the piper will be paid.
02:37 AM on 11/07/2011
The Greek government should have secured the public’s consent before issuing so much debt. Anyway, The Greek government contracted to service the debt when they issued it. The debt issuer “defaults†when it can’t abide by the terms previously agreed to.
12:51 AM on 11/06/2011
There is a lot of myopia in this article. First of all tax breaks as they are found in the US are just legalized tax evasion. Secondly the loans to Greece which caused a major problem were engineered by Goldman-Sachs. Moreover, in quoting Plato, democracy renders "...equality to equals and unequals alike," one might keep in mind a more current saying, "All men are created equal, but some are more equal than others." and why is that? "all men are[supposed to be] equal before the law. Then why doesn't the law apply to everyone in an equal way? The author might want to read Alexis de Toqueville and what he has to say about what he calls "associations," that an association that is a minority can impose its will on the majority, which he cautions against in his book called, Democracy.
07:22 AM on 11/07/2011
Hmm, I just did fetch my copy of A.d. Toqueville and did read (again) the paragraph you mentioned.

Let's be honest, you read it and the praise of the American people's maturity, homogeneity and peaceful debate which is contrasted with the European's aggression, small- or single mindedness and irresponsibility ... and you involuntary think: Tea Party?

I think the decisive sentence is about halfway through that paragraph/ chapter: It's about the free and fair and equal elections which - in his time - ofc did only happen in the US, not in Europe. But times have changed since he wrote down his observations. So, within the full context we can today say that this chapter has become obsolete. Deficits in democracy we see today are different and come from different sources (role of the media, mass communication, mass psychology ... French psychologist Gustave Le Bon comes to mind; among many other challenges to redefine what democracy means in our century).
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07:56 AM on 11/07/2011
Le Bon could easily be considered a racist (psychological differences along race lines) and surely was an elitist, deeply sceptical of and maybe afraid of "masses". Now, in a democracy, as we understand it today, there would be a strong influence of masses, by definition.

Le Bon was a medical doctor, by his oevre he would be better characterized as a sociologist, by modern standards. IMO.
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behavingbadly
reality doesn't care what you believe
09:05 AM on 11/07/2011
Excellent response.