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If Americans Knew What We Did to Iran, Would We Still Talk About Using Force?
Hands on buzzers, for 500 points: this democratic leader was overthrown in 1953 by a US-organized coup in retaliation for nationalizing oil resources previously controlled by the British.
Who is Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh?
If you're a little rusty on the history of U.S.-Iran relations, here's a 6-minute video review:
If more Americans knew about this history, could our leaders blather on about supporting freedom and democracy in the Middle East they way they do? Would news media take them seriously if they did so? Would American pundits be so cavalier about the idea of bombing Iran, in flagrant violation of international law? Could people make fun of Senator Barack Obama for supporting real diplomacy with Iran and get away with it?
I don't claim that it would be impossible for U.S. politicians to talk about bombing Iran if "every schoolboy knew" what the United States did in Iran in 1953. But surely it would be more difficult.
Ask Congress to support the Lee bill, which would appoint a high-level U.S. representative to Iran for the purpose of reducing tensions and establishing normal diplomatic relations.
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oh my gosh,
that's soooooooo unamerikan
how can you dare to hang out our dirty laundry
in front of God & everybody
do you want to give aid & comfort to those
who think that amerikan foreign policy
actually causes other countries to think
the amerikan empire only cares about
drivin' our SUV's on cheap oil ???
forget about it
.
Current projections estimate 40% of energy consumption and 96% of transportation is derived from oil. 66% percent of remaining reserves are estimated to be in the middle east (25% saudi,11% Iraq,8% Iran, UAE9%, kuwait 9%, libya 2%) BP projects that by 2020 it will be 83% in the middle east. The 9% in north america clarify the power/influence struggle . Were in the middle east for a reason (as is affirmed by greenspan), the industrialized nations created the most powerful economic system the world has ever seen as a means of competition in politics (the representative communist/socialist struggles of the century) by creating a basterdized form of capitalism/socialism that would put smith,locke, let alone friedman to shame. Now if your a politician attempting to maintain such a beast your invisible hand of the market must be managed with a vary visable fist. Our lack of initiative to move from the petrodominated market system only solidifies the need for our perminant presence in Iraq (you know were building bases right?) and the need for a puppet government in Iran. Do you really think you can convince the majority of americans to abandon all of their new found luxuries? This is what is required to "stabilize" the area in the interest of our economics system. In honor to orwell they stand before us and tell us its for freedom and democracy (I can think of at least 4 democracies america has overthrown) And on closer inspection you will realize we are forcing our economics system (Centralized multinational banking system), as directed by the Rockefeller/CFR interests (not freedom and democracy). There's a funny corelation of not having a central bank and being consitered a "rouge state" I should note this is coming from a libertarian, constitutionalist that believes in the value of a "true" free market with a properly functioning monetary system would protect our freedoms and civil liberties, however now I would rather live in the woods. I appologize for such a fragmented and incohearant post, however it reflects how mixed my feelings are on the situation.
The trouble with this argument is the asumption that the Iranians want to talk to us. Iran's "church/state" government ideal is gaining momentum in Iraq, in Lebanon, in Palestine, in Saudi Arabia with the shiite minorities, by NOT talking to us, and by supporting terrorist tactics wherever they are able. At this point, with moderates now effectively losing all seats in Parliament, and the Mullahs being pushed aside by the supporters of fanatic Amadinejad, our only hope of dialog is through the Supreme Leader, and even he may not be interested. Bush blew our chances of any sort of reconciliation when he refused Iran's assistance in Iraq. The shortsightedness of our government when it comes to the Middle East is only exceeded by the lack of interest in our citizens, who seem to think that as long as they get oil for their gas guzzling SUV's, that it doesn't matter how it's obtained.
the iranians HAVE tried to talk to us
REPEATEDLY
the bush regime's response is a list of demands to be met BEFORE talking -
DO WHAT WE TELL YOU TO DO AND THEN WE WILL TALK TO YOU!!!!!!!
Thought I made that point as well, obviously not. They offered to talk, at one point in time. However I don't believe, at the official level anyway, they find it important or urgent to do so now. Amadinejad is too busy predicting the return of the "mahdi", and getting his followers ready for Armageddon. It is interesting that both Shiite Islam, and Fundamental Christianity are both readying for battle on their beliefs of eschatology. It is important to remember also, that the majority of the population of Iran is young, born after the fall of the Shah, many during their war with Iraq. Just as the youth in this country have a vision skewed by war, so do they. The U.S. Embassy is a Museum now, showing all the CIA spying equipment confiscated during the revolution. They have no recent history, let alone past history, to lead them to trust us. The Friday after 9/11, the Supreme Leader for the first time issued the order not to call "death to america" at the mosque, and candles were lit for the victims of the attack. That was our opportunity for dialog, and as you say, Bush screwed it up.
Regardless of politics or religion these people love to do business. Send in the suits.
Who really cares? How are we ever going to become oil-independent by hashing over Iran's bloody sordid history?
The US took over after Great Shittin' left.
We sort of inherited their crappy little empire. What fun, what fun. Why? Oil, oil, and again the oil.
Price of getting out of the middle east forever? Become energy-independent. Beware of oil companies bearing global whining propaganda.
People know, Robert. But 50 year old mistakes don't carry a lot of weight in the present, particularly when the country you're defending is a major sponsor of international terrorism and directly responsible for a substantial number of American deaths in Iraq.
When we only look at the 'ax to grind' in our hands things will only get worse. Iran has plenty of grievances against the US with good reason. The UK had been abusing the Iranians for years but looked to the US for help with Mossadegh. He insisted on fair treatment for Iran and the UK, actually BP, was adamant not to give. Truman turned the UK down for any help to overthrow Mossadegh but when Eisenhower was elected and with the Dulles brothers installed as state and CIA heads things begin to happen. The overthrow of the elected leader of Iran was planned, funded and overseen by our CIA. It is a sad chapter in our history.
That is true if you believe what this Administration tells you. I don't they have lost any credibility with me.
War is not the answer.
Blackshards, one of us here at least gets what you are saying. If we start going by past histories and offenses, God knows where things will go. From the tenor of the remarks on this board I doubt very much if any of the responders feels that France betrayed us by not supporting the Iraqi War even though we saved them in WW II. Presented with that argument, I think many of the posters supporting this assertion would stand adamantly against past history guiding today's actions.
As you observed correctly, an unstable regime seeking nuclear capabilities that has shown a predeliction for assisting in the deaths of Americans for over 30 years is to be worried about, no matter what happened 50+ years ago.
what is the cut off for relevance, 40 years?
Thank you Robert.
Caught in the middle then, as now, are the people who live in Iran. And because most Americans living today don't have a clue (or don't care) about what we did over there in the 50's, they're also unable to see that Iran is in the mess it's in today in large part because we always seem either to be interfering with them or demonizing them ... as if they were a vassal state and not a nation with a much longer history than our own.
D'you know who suffers most? The people who *live* there! It's almost as if Bush and his people are inviting the Iranian hardliners to find excuses to torment their citizenry. It's never been so easy for the very worst elements over there to find plenty of material to stoke their paranoia about the United States.
Memri reports, "In a new public service broadcast, the Iranian Intelligence Ministry urges Iranian citizens to use its new 113 hotline to report suspicious activity."
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1678.htm
The U.S. won't engage diplomatically but threatens war, so the loony-tunes over there get stronger. Then the U.S. makes more threats and they get stronger still, speaking out aggressively in public forums and coming down even harder on their own people.
The Lee bill is worth looking into, but maybe Congress should be authorized to appoint the representative. Otherwise we'd just get another Bush toady fresh from his latest wide-stance dance in a public restroom somewhere.
Unfortunately, the swing vote in America doesn't know much history before last year's winner of American Idol.
If Americans knew the truth about American foreign policy throughout our history there would be no "American exceptionalism". If a frog had wings .......
American will to ignorance has been such a useful thing for the criminnals who have been running things.
It is also useful to those cowardly types who can't even look in the mirror, for fear of seeinng what they really are.
None too pretty!
I like the way that Robert Naiman only focuses on one minor part of Iranian History while obscuring the fact that these are the very same religious sect that Supported Adolph Hitler and the National Socialists.
Why?
Could it be that the GERMAN NAZI's and the AMERICAN PROGRESSIVES HAVE THE SAME IDEOLOGY?
I Honestly Believe so!
You can Google all kinds of info on how the Amercan Progressives were the ones who originally built the research labs (Concentration Camps), in Germany, funded by American Social Progressive Elitists, who were Authors of how to Utilize the Science of Darwinism, to Segregate, Sterilize, and/or Euthanize those who were deemed Social Misfits! Like Negros, Homosexuals and other usseless Eaters!!!
The Final Solution that condemned Millions to the Gas Chambers in the Death Camps, was an American Progressive Idea!!!
www.waragainsttheweak.com
Check out the Above Link for an Insight into those who coddle our enemies, feeding all of us to the Crocodile, hoping that they are Eaten last!
That's interesting because the Progressive Movement is the exact opposite of the eugenics movement. Fancy that.
Wow. I'm an American progressive, and I've been, like, pissed off at torture. I was under the impression, that we just kind of started in the past 10 years as people got disaffected with the Democratic party. But, I'm sure that those Right Wing spinmeisters really know a lot about Nazis.
Were the American Nazi Progressives anti-torture-mongers? Do Devil Worshipers believe or disbelieve in stem cell research?
What time of day are you supposed to take your anti-psychotic medication and what is the dosage?
There are just so many revelations you've brought forth to ponder.
Who was it that traded and funded the Nazis... oh, that's right, Grandpappy Bush! Got caught too, by FDR's G-Men, and then got off easy because of his "connections".
And who was it that supplied Saddam Hussein with all sorts of weapons for 8 years in a war against Iran... oh, that's right, Pappy Bush!
And who is it that is coddling Musharref, the protector of Bin Laden and all those other meanies in Pakistan... oh, that's right, W Bush!
And who was it that bailed out W in one of his many failures... oh, that's right, the Bin Ladens!
Typically conservative approach to history, when you don't like the real thing just re-write it and move forward.
I did not know that bush and his good buddy and economic adviser, a 90 year old former Nazi and adviser to Adolf Hitler, makes him a progressive, just how do you figure that?
It's not so much that they don't know, it's that they don't care. Bin Laden kills 3,000 Americans in a terror attack and he's the devil. George Bush kills 3,960 Americans in a war for nothing in Iraq and he's a god.
There's nothing rational about the right. Stop trying to appeal to the better nature that they just don't have.
The right are reptile brain users and their propaganda is directed to the reptile brain. Manufacturing fear, unhealthy shame,lies, deceit is all directed at the reptile brain so they don't think just react to imagined fears concocted by others for manipulation purposes. 27% of Americans automatically operate from the reptile brain. This level of support closely approximates the same support the Nazi's had. It automatic that they will vote for an authoritarian/totalitarian dictatorship. No questions asked.
If you believe that a man in a cave pulled this off by himself, I've got some property in Fl that I would like to sell you.
Who let all the Saudis out of the country when the rest of us couldn't fly, who says bld 7 went down all by it's self, who says that the last plane went down in PA without leaving a trace about what happened, who says a big plane ran into the Pentagon and left such a small hole. Think people this stuff doesn't make sense. I don't know what happened but I do know there was no investigation about any of this that makes any sense at all.
Red Staters conveniently forget things like this, just like they forget how we aided Saddam for years
All we did by deposing Saddam was turning the place over to Shite control, helping Iran in the process. We are "friends" with the Sunni countries in the region and it would have been in our interest to keep Iraq Sunni run. I don't have a problem with what we did in Iran in 1953, but the Humiliation of America in 1978 was one of the worst things happen to our country in quite some time. We had a disaster of a President with Jimmy Carter and Ziggy Bezezinski, his National Security Advisor. Their actions haunt us to this very day, their weak actions of letting Iran kick sand in our faces without the stern action that was needed sent a message to the region of the world that America is weak with weak leadership. Now we are getting ready for JIMMY CARTER PART II in BARACK OBAMA, another weak unknown that is having a sudden rise in American politics and the people behind the curtain responsible for the rise of Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama are THE VERY SAME PEOPLE. I had known for a long time that Ziggy Brzezinski, Former Carter National Security Advisor and father of Mika on MSNBC, was an advisor to Obama but when I saw a photo of George Soros at an Obama fundraiser it became clear. You can see it at NEW YORK MAG. nymag.comm) April 16,2007 with a piece called "Money Chooses Sides". Ziggy Brzezinski is like a DEMOCRATIC Henry Kissenger and is connected with the ultra-rich elite eastern liberals like David Rockerfeller and George Soros. How do you think a unknown peanut farmer from Georgia was able to go from nowhere to the White House? These people are very powerful and have the ability to made things happen and their new weak puppet is Obama, who they have helped come from nowhere to challange for the Democrtic Nomination. They are the long time insiders and they will hold great sway over Obama with the selection of the actual people that will be running our country.
These ultra-rich Internationalists are in favor of the elimination of borders, tariffs and anything else that gets in the way of the uninpeded flow of goods, services and capital in the world. You can see their work in Europe with the creation on the E.U. and the EURO and the elimination of all borders and tariffs in the Union. They would also like to turn NORTH AMERICA into one country which would be a boost to business interests. GOOGLE ANY OF THE NAMES I MENTIONED you might learn something.
People don't want to know. They are content to be told by the WARMONGERS of our society that the Iranians are all "Bad mans" and that we have every right to bomb and/or invade their country just because they might, at some time in the shadowy and distant future, become a threat to the security of the region or even of the United States. And, as long as we don't have a draft, and we aren't dragging young men from their homes to go and fight and die in a ground war in Iran, Americans will sit in front of their televisions, watch game shows, drink beer, eat junk food, and grow fatter, lazier, and DUMBER.
Television, they don't call it 'programming' by accident...you're supposed to watch the game show, you're supposed to drink the beer, you're supposed to enjoy the Barcalounger, you're supposed to be ready for some football, you ARE hungry for Burger King now, if you want people to do something different, stop beaming those instructions at them etc....take on Madison Avenue etc...or stop whining about people's behavior. Advertising works, or they wouldn't do it...and they frankly give a shit about the consequences as long as that stock price goes up. Call for Philip Morris...and 50 million people smoke etc. See how that works? It's all done with TV tuners...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Fall asleep in front of the television...submlininamininiable....
They're trying to 'program' the public for the War On Terror, too. Why do you think Barack talks in that deep, booming 'alpha' voice, and Billary sounds just like him? Trying to manipulate people. That's why they train em to smile a lot in commercials.
Advertising, like I said, it works or they wouldn't use it. Think 'TV-as-government-agent'.Suck em in, keep em tuned in, ratings week...Running Man etc.
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