Would God ever damn America? Is there anything we have done or could do as a nation that might court such severe judgment from an almighty, or is there a peculiar American exemption from God's wrath? The prediction of God's damnation for bad behavior is made in both black and white churches.

One authority on such matters, the Rev. Pat Robertson, didn't think the latter when he blamed the ravaging effects of Hurricane Katrina on the Lord's retribution against those who "shed innocent blood." Robertson's reference to legalized abortion cited a passage from Leviticus that the Rev. Jeremiah Wright also might have been thinking of when he sermonized: "The government ... wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people," a reference to African-Americans sacrificed on ghetto streets.

While the "innocents" about whom they spoke are different, the scriptural reference seems to be the same. As Robertson put it, in a statement preserved in a video clip posted on the Internet by Media Matters: "I was reading yesterday ... about what God has to say in the Old Testament about those who shed innocent blood ... 'the land will vomit you out,' " which he related to attacks "either by terrorists or now by natural disaster."

Robertson, a firm ally of Republican administrations, has not always been warm to the presumed GOP presidential nominee, Sen. John McCain, although the two recently mended their strained relationship. However, in this season of pastor-baiting, McCain has his own problem, having expressed his thrill in receiving "the endorsement of Pastor John Hagee."

Hagee, citing a planned "homosexual parade," had previously told National Public Radio that Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment of the people of New Orleans for "a level of sin that was offensive to God." Obviously, the almighty with whom Hagee is on intimate terms is in need of MapQuest, given that New Orleans' gay neighborhoods were among the ones least impacted by the hurricane.

Hagee long has been denounced by Catholics for labeling the Vatican "The Great Whore" and blaming Hitler's genocidal policies on his having "attended a Catholic school as a child." An Hagee issue that has some current relevance to the Iraq disaster is his blasting of the Roman Catholic Church for sponsoring the Crusades, which "plunged the world into the Dark Ages."

In a warning that imperial adventures lose some of their luster with the passage of time, Hagee wrote in his book "Jerusalem Countdown": "The brutal truth is that the Crusades were military campaigns of the Roman Catholic Church to gain control of Jerusalem from the Muslims and to punish the Jews as the alleged Christ killers on the road to and from Jerusalem." What will future theologians say about George W. Bush's crusade to liberate Iraq, shedding the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents?

I know what the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. would say were he alive today, for it would be consistent with his denunciation of the Vietnam War in a sermon at New York's Riverside Church a year before his assassination. Recounting his difficulty in spreading the message of nonviolence and personal responsibility to the very ghetto youths that the Rev. Wright has worked with for four decades, King stated, "I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today: my own government."

King delivered that speech the year Wright ended his six years of service in the U.S. Marine Corps and Navy, for which he received three commendations from President Lyndon Johnson, whom King was confronting. No doubt Wright was influenced by King's oratory decrying "the cruel irony of watching Negro and white boys on TV screens ... in brutal solidarity burning the huts of a poor village, but we realize that they would hardly live on the same block in Chicago. I could not be silent in the face of such cruel manipulation of the poor." And neither could Wright.

I respect Barack Obama's right to repudiate his pastor's comments, as he did, but I respect even more his refusal to throw the man overboard in a practice we witnessed all too often with the Clintons when they came under right-wing attacks. Hillary did it again Tuesday, telling the right-wing Pittsburgh Tribune-Review editorial board that Wright "would not have been my pastor." So she says, but the record shows she was there in the White House on Sept. 11, 1998, when her husband posed for a photo with the Rev. Wright and was grateful for his support in the midst of that wrath-of-Leviticus blue dress flap. Ingrate.


 
 

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Wrights speech is good.

http://faultlineusa.blogspot.com/2008/03/jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon-in-context.html

Obama's speech is great:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/18/obama-race-speech-read-t_n_92077.html

Please keep your opinion to yourself if you have not listened to both speeches.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:18 PM on 03/29/2008

ohh please, bob baby. tThe sainted Obama threw his white granny under the bus in that speech he made so fair is fair: it's ok for Hillary to say his pastor would not be her Mr. Righteousness.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:22 PM on 03/26/2008

Pure BS.

There is nothing wrong with Wrights speeches.

Obama did not throw his grandmother under the bus.

this whole out of context smear campaign is a republican Fake noise machine hit job.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:41 AM on 03/27/2008

Mr. Scheer, would we even be having this discussion if America wasn't so wrong about the role of religion in politics?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:53 PM on 03/26/2008

How much do you respect him for throwing his Grandmother under the bus? I don't know about you but, blood is thicker than water. I know I would never throw my Grandmother under the bus for short term political gain. Who on here has a "mentor" or "best friend" that spews racist, misogynistic or homophobic rhetoric? I know I am no longer friends with the ones I had. Seems Mr. Obama is just as calculating as Ms. Clinton.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:52 PM on 03/26/2008

Since when do the words "made me cringe" equate with "throw under the bus"??? Why is everyone so upset about Obama's poor ol white granny being so dissed????!!! EXCUSE ME?

Is there only one person big enough to say that a loved one's ignorant comments cause him to cring in this country? And only who who's ever experienced that discomfort?

Let's get real folks... the people we love do sometimes embarass us with what they say. Admitting it certainly doesn't throw them under any bus. In fact, calling them on it can sometimes wake them up!

So please, WAKE UP, PLEASE!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:34 AM on 03/27/2008

You know, I would agree with you, IF what you're saying happened actually happened! First, you need to re-watch his speech (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt about having watched it already!) Second, you need to re-watch his interview which most people are claiming that is when he threw her under the bus. Having actually WATCHED them, then you can come back and comment about it!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:41 AM on 03/27/2008

Kinda like Sen. McCain throwing his first wife and children under the bus. Oh, and don't forget about how McCain has thrown his brown daughter under the bus he never mentions her when he gives his speeches and in New Hampshire he didn't acknowledge her on stage just his blond wife and blond daughter. What a guy!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:55 PM on 03/26/2008

How much do you respect him for throwing his grandmother under the bus?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:15 PM on 03/26/2008

Geez, that's original. Since you didn't listen to the speech, I wonder where you heard that little anecdote - was it Rush, Hannity, or Fox and Friends?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:49 PM on 03/26/2008


He didn't throw his grandmother under the bus; he was trying to illustrate through personal family anecdote, that misperceptions, misunderstandings and sterotypes of all sorts exist in every family -- even uniquely open ones, such as his. By addressing directly the flaws in his blood family and church family he tried to show that none of us is pure, however good our intentions.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:01 PM on 03/26/2008

better yet, take a cue from your name!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:24 PM on 03/26/2008

shut up!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:23 PM on 03/26/2008


Obama probably goes to a church in the Washington area.

he needs to maneouver out of the corner his opponents want to keep him in while they slug away, perhaps by suggesting that his association with the chicago church had to do with the work they were doing in the community and his association with his DC church makes more sense as President.

He needs to stop thinking of Obama the ego as persona and start thinking of "Obama the President" as the persona he wants to cultivate. Stubborness will just be a weapon he uses on himself.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:36 PM on 03/26/2008

We are taking our eyes off the ball here. We are talking about the words of a Hellfire and Brimstone preacher instead of looking at some real issues. The old testiment is full of God Damning all kinds of people and nations. Preachers have called for people and nations to be damned for eons. So the f**k what? Is this going to be the "Gay Marriage" issue that kills the chances of a Dem in the White House? If so then we are collectvly a stupid people and we deserve what the Bush and next the McCane governments do to us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:32 PM on 03/26/2008

Please go to YouTube and watch the sermons of the Rev Wright. You will find that he's NOT a fire and brimstone preacher at all. Granted, yes, what he said, he said, BUT what you haven't HEARD that he said was still said!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:42 AM on 03/27/2008

I"ve become quite troubled that an angle of this Wright story may damage the social activist traditions of churches in America.

Has it not occurred to anyone else, the inherent danger of looking so closely and largely distorting the content of Rev. Wright"s sermons?

Do you guys realize how many churches and clergymen were parts of the abolitionist movement? The Civil Right"s movement? Women"s rights? Apartheid?

I actually have to applaud conservatives like Mike Huckabee, and David Kuo who are vocally defending the sanctity of the social activist traditions of churches in America. They see the inherent danger of this path. Even McCain hasn"t said anything about Wright.

Do you guys think that conservatives are perhaps a little more sensitive to matters regarding possible censorship of religious figures in America? I think I do have to give them that credit.

However much people like Bob Jones or Jerry Falwell drove me up the wall with many of their sermons; I never even came close to implying that they should be censored in any way shape or form.

If we create a de-facto test for clergy, our country will greatly suffer for it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:35 PM on 03/26/2008

It's not about the minister, it's about Obama! What does he really think?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:17 PM on 03/26/2008

BS! It's all about the minister! When I was attending church, I DIDN'T THINK WHAT MY PREACHER TOLD ME!!! I think for myself, and so does Obama. This is all just a scam to make us equate a man that doesn't exist (watch the FULL sermon!) with a candidate who can lead us back onto the path that this country NEEDS to be on!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:44 AM on 03/27/2008

There is nothing wrong with Wrights speeches.

Obama did not throw his grandmother under the bus.

this whole out of context smear campaign is a republican Fake noise machine hit job.

America has done damnable things, like murder the native Americans, and invade Iraq.

Obama expressed himself beautifully, did you not listen?

Have you listened to Wrights full speech?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:47 AM on 03/27/2008

this is late; but the most important impact of rev wright's observations will be how they affect the foreign policy debates obama might have with mccain. is obama now inhibited from offering a foreign policy critique for fear of rekindling wright's remarks?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:28 PM on 03/26/2008

Just goes to show, everyone has a hold on truth - it's just the manipulation of same, molded to one's viewpoint, that makes the grasp tenuous

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:24 PM on 03/26/2008

What a surprise! Robert Scheer approves of, yea, hallows something Obama spoke/wrote....! This must have happened interleaved with the sputtering noises that accompany his gulps of the water he believes that Obama walks on.....! Scheer SHOULD issue a blank imprimatur for everything Obama has done and save the rest of this blog's readers the bother of his wearisome prose....!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:21 PM on 03/26/2008

The jealous always reveal themselves through messianic references and analogies. You'd be a whole lot happier if you joined 'em... because you sure can't beat 'em ;)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:14 PM on 03/27/2008

Do you also respect Joe Kennedy, Henry Ford, John Rockefeller, and Charles Lindberg for refusing to back off their support of the Nazi regime?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:20 PM on 03/26/2008

Very interesting comparing Wright's anti-social and racist comments to Naziism.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:37 PM on 03/26/2008

And what has Wright done to be compared to Nazis? He spoke some fiery words. How does that compare with starting wars and exterminating 6 million people because of their religion? If you are really making that equation, dalacious, your sense of proportion is perverted to the extreme. Identify one act of Wright's that he hurt another human being.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:45 PM on 03/26/2008

I always thought Jesus committed suicide by Roman so he could die for our sins. Did he not know they were coming for him?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:07 PM on 03/26/2008

YUP!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:46 AM on 03/27/2008

Your comments are spot on Mr. Scheer.

The difference between Wright's comments and some of the more incendiary comments of other preachers (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell) is that his take the country's POLICIES to task, where those others attack its CITIZENS ("pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians...")

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 PM on 03/26/2008

A distinction without a difference.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:21 PM on 03/26/2008

That you can think that is simply proof of how far the kool-aid has gone....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:17 PM on 03/26/2008

Fair enough I guess, but if the citizenry is going to be tarred with the same brush as its government, then it is its obligation to take issue with what that government is doing in its name.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:53 PM on 03/26/2008

Bill posed with Wright in the middle of the Lewinski nonsense?

That is rich. Very rich. Does the word despicable apply?

I am so sick of all the spin, all the narratives, all the lying done to obtain power. All the pandering to the lowest common denominator. And especially the closet racism.

As Jon Stewart said: Obama talked to the American people about race as if they are adults. Good for you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 PM on 03/26/2008

oooooo, Obama talked to us as we are adults? If I hear this one more time, I will scream.....how else should he talk to us? AND, he only did the race speech to cover his political ass, as his pastor is a hate mongering biggot, spewing dirt and damning America.....Obama knew he needed to do something.....but he did not do enought, and HRC is right, he should have thrown the pastor overboard. There is a need for a race discussion, but spewing hate based on race, sex, or any other attribute is unacceptable and until his pastor proved to be something other than the hater he is, Obama should not associate with him in any way!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 PM on 03/26/2008


Sounds like you ARE screaming.

Here is a little insight: Obama met the Rev. Wright while doing community work for churches and nonprofit organizations, but he was without a spiritual home, not having had a traditional Christian upbringing. It was Rev. Wright who introduced Obama to Jesus Christ and who taught him the lessons of Scripture. Obama does not want to cast off the religion he was introduced to, nor the person who opened that door for him: Pastor Wright -- in all his sin and glory. No one is one dimensional, Barack knows that. Do you?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:13 PM on 03/26/2008

By contrast, Hillary speaks to us like we're children. McBush speaks to us like we're retarded children. Hmmmm..... Who am I going to listen to?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 PM on 03/26/2008

Hillary reminds me of an elementary school teacher I once had.

Although that has not much to do with why I like Obama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:28 PM on 03/26/2008

The reason it is significant that Obama talks to us like adults is that his is a rare perspective from a politician. He knows that in real life, there is more nuance than the media and most politicians admit. They pretend that all that matters is the conflict between absolutes, but reasonable adults know that there are almost always many points along a spectrum that make a lot more sense than the points on either end.

This is in stark contrast to presidents who condescendingly tell us to "trust them" while they make terrible decisions without seeking intelligent counsel.

And it's particularly striking when viewed alongside a candidate who shakes her fist in the air and scolds "Shame on you" to another adult.

I look forward to the inauguration of a reasonable, ethical, honest, intelligent, visionary man - President Obama - in January.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:42 PM on 03/26/2008

."..until his pastor proved to be something other than the hater he is.."

So now its 'hateful" to criticize our government? Please. Its not up to you to decide what Chruch Obama goes to. Maybe he is likes the way the choir sounds or something. Maybe he feels comfortable with the church as a whole. Since he knows his Church from the inside and you only know about it from a few out of context video clips, I think I'll leave that judgement to Mr Obama. You were not going to vote for him anyway, so why pretend it has anything to do with Wright? You weren't going to vote for him because you are a white republican bigot, and the crap you are disseminating about Wright comes straight from Karl Roves playbook. America has been damned by plenty of white preachers, but I guess its only a problem when a black man does it. How dare him! Rev. Wright is so ungrateful to white America!. Those people have had it too easy in the years since slavery was abolished, right mikey? Your phony outrage is hillarious, mikey. Obama is a classy g