Final FL Delegate Selection Spurring Debate, Positioning
Twenty-seven electoral votes -- fourth largest election prize in the nation -- "and don't you forget it."
That's the stock answer Floridians are giving the Democratic National Committee (DNC) as State party leaders move ahead in the final delegate selection process this week and await word on the group's status for the Denver convention in August. Most observers now believe Florida will end up getting only one-half vote per delegate.
Nonetheless, State party leaders will meet at the Airport Hilton in Tampa Saturday (May 17) to select the remaining 40 at-large delegates of its original 211 total and then send the results to Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton for their review. The Tampa meeting may not be a quiet one -- with rumors floating that there will be a motion introduced to force the State's DNC representatives to vote for Sen. Clinton because she won the State's January 29 primary. In light of the "new reality" of Obama's all-but-certain nomination, however, some delegate-hopefuls are eager that Obama select Clinton as his running-mate to bring the party together.
Such rumors are running rampant in political circles, including one that says if Obama decides to wait until the final primaries before accepting Florida or if the DNC doesn't quickly act to solve the situation, this important swing state with its sizable electoral vote could back the Republican candidate-apparent Sen. John McCain, "despite the unpopular war and sinking economy."
Mindful of such rumors, Obama surrogates -- led by Florida Congressman Robert Wexler -- are already speaking to South Florida condominium communities, urging them to stick with"their Democratic party."
Just about everyone who keeps up with politics knows Florida and Michigan are being penalized by the DNC for holding early primaries, but the real drama is unfolding in Washington D.C. and will come full circle in Tampa this weekend as the last of the delegates are chosen. Floridians keep reminding everyone that -- even if its primary was seven days early -- all Democratic candidates were on the ballot, which Sen. Clinton won by some 17 percent.
Everyone -- from party officials in Florida's capital to the District of Columbia Capitol -- agree that Florida will have its delegates confirmed, but just how many and when -- even such a minute point as to which Denver hotel has been reserved for the Sunshine State entourage -- has been left unanswered.
Now, the DNC is saying it will make a decision regarding Florida (and Michigan presumably) on May 31 when its Credentials Committee meets.
That may be too late, some insiders say, especially those who are supporting Sen. Clinton who view the current state of the DNC's delegate approval process as an effort to make Florida "meaningless."
'We won't be meaningless in the Fall when our electoral votes and our money are needed," said Ron Mills, a Democratic activist from Fort Lauderdale, one of a growing number who will trek to Tampa for the at-large selection meeting of the State Committee on May 17. He noted that Obama has scheduled a fundraiser in Florida next week.
Meanwhile, long time Dem-leader and superdelegate Jon Ausman of Tallahassee -- a
one-time Dennis Kucinich supporter -- says he will take his appeal to the DNC on May
31-- still time, he says, to keep Florida in play for the general election. His proposal, he
explained could eventually give the State its full 211 delegates. His proposal takes three
steps, including one to initially give Florida l/2 vote per delegate.
"At this stage I am looking for the 23 Charter Delegates (the official name for superdelegates) and 94 of 188 pledged/unpledged add-on delegates for a delegation of 117." That would amount to 55.5 percent of the delegation if Florida had not been penalized.
"Afterwards, I will appeal to the Convention Credentials Committee for the remaining portion of delegates to bring us up to 211 votes," he explained..
Whether political insiders would be satisfied with the l/2 vote solution is still questionable.
Several activists say nothing less than full representation would satisfy them.
But, Ausman -- who says he is still uncommitted -- said "The problem here is twofold: One, Florida did violate the "timing rule" and Florida knew the penalty was a 50 percent reduction in the delegation; two, we need to focus on the "getting elected" portion of the saying and be a positive force for the nominee rather than a negative story leading into the convention.
That Florida will be seated in full before June 3 is still a longshot is sparking protests,
including one by bus loads of Floridians -- mostly backers of Sen. Clinton -- who were in
Washington on April 30th for a rally before the DNC headquarters. The group had hoped
to confront party leaders and argue that the Sunshine State's disqualified January primary
results should be counted. They were asking that all 211 Florida delegates be seated at the
August convention in Denver, but the most that they received was a handful of press
clippings and TV coverage of their effort.
Florida Deserves Representation (FDR) founder Jim Hannigan of Palm Harbour, organizer of the bus-protest , says he is angry that his vote is not being counted and would not be satisfied with the so-called l/2 vote solution. "We want our full vote."
Jose Fernandez, of Orlando, State Coordinator for the League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC), has said "anyone who believes that their voting is being violated" should not be satisfied with one-half a vote,.
Most of those seeking delegate slots in Tampa this weekend, agree that despite the unfulfilled promise of National Party Chairman Howard Dean to recognize the Florida vote; despite the fact that no one knows how the delegates will eventually be allocated; and despite the fact that the DNC refuses to designate a hotel for Florida delegates in Denver for the convention, Aug, 25-28 -- they will still participate in the final phase of selecting delegates and alternates based on the January results.
Dean has said Florida would be seated once the two candidates are in agreement, but
there is general feeling that he is just waiting until all the primaries are over on June 3 "or until there is an eventual nominee. " Clinton favors seating all of the Florida delegation while Sen.Obama has said "no" because the state thwarted the party rules and, as a result, not all of the candidates campaigned there, believing the voting wouldn't be counted toward the nomination.
"That could backfire," one unaffiliated Superdelegate explained. "The DNC's action is playing right into the hands of the Republicans."
Because the superdelegates -- the powerful clique of party insiders -- will probably select the nominee, Florida media has been paying special attention to that select group. Florida has 25 superdelegates, identified in the Miami Herald as the "Power Brokers." Of the 25, seven are now said to be pro-Clinton, five for Obama and 13, uncommitted. All of them are being barraged with emails, phone calls and personal visits by surrogates of both Clinton and Obama.
Local party leaders, meantime, say they are just proceeding as if Florida was "just "one of the regular kids.......not the "misunderstood child.".
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Funny how all these problem that we keep having, with Presidential elections, is coming from a state that has a Bush as Governor.
Do keep up, Bush is no longer the Governor of Florida it is Charlie Crist. Glad to see you keep up and no doubt vote with an educated mind. An Obama supporter?
Dean - If you are a Clinton supporter that means you're much more informed - that would mean you've disregarded all her various personalities/strategies/pandering and just plain lies. I wanted nothing more than to elect a woman for president - just not that woman. She can't run her campaign - she can't handle it's finances - and she hasn't decided which Hillary found her voice/self/whatever.....bad choice for those of us who had hoped for a woman - maybe next time the dems won't select someone who thinks the job is an entitlement for all her anguish. where is your mind??!
Florida,
Your ELECTED OFFICIALS are the ones who screwed you over. These are the individuals that you voted into office that despite knowing the outcome of what would happen should they go against the rules DID SO ANYWAY and got all of your votes nullified. Be pissed at these individuals, being mad at the DNC is the wrong move cause if your really upset about getting played, the state needs to OUST THE ELECTED OFFICIALS!
... Keep your eyes open
...many of these elected officials are republicans and KNEW what they were doing when they did this.
Florida fucked us in 2000 and wants to fuck us again now. Well go right ahead. If you want to act like a bunch of spoiled kids and vote for four more years of this crap, do so. Only the rest of us are gonna put a man in office - Barack Obama - that will get this country turned around - I assure you Billary won't be doing that. Don't worry, we'll bring you guys along for the ride even if you don't deserve it.
I live in Florida and I did not get to vote for Obama because i thought votes did not count. It would be unfair to give Clinton all of FL. I think people should relax and let the DNC handle this but it is obvious that Hillary is the one making a huge fuss out of a state that she herself singned a pledge that they violated rules and would not count. Now she wants a full seating because she is losing? That is just not fair.
It's your own fault if you didn't vote. 1.7 million of us managed to.
I am tired of Florida acting like a spoiled child. What about the other 48 states that followed the rules? If these states bully their way back in, every state will start breaking the rules in 2012. If Florida and Michigan want to punish someone they should punish their elected officials. If they want to vote for McCain they can go ahead and act like children. If they would doom this country to 4 more years of Republican Policy. Go ahead. Stomp your feet. But dont expect the rest of the country to support or respect you. Because if John McCain is our next President we will no who to blame.
where were all these delegates when THEIR legislature changed the rules? If their was no campaign in Fl, then that gives clinton an unfair advantageby seating all of the delegates. For those democrats that threaten to vote for MCcain, just remember it will be YOU sending your children and grandchildren to be slaughtered in this Republican war in Iraq!
If there are no consequences for states' parties' failing to keep agreements (MI and FL leapfrogging over all of the other states after the representatives to the DNC agreed on the format and the order by which the primaries would be held), what's to prevent other states from doing the same thing as MI and FL in 2012?
Isn't this the very model of our democracy?
If MI and FL refuse to abide by the rules they signed on to, how can we have a democracy in which we all agree to abide by the rule of law?
MI and FL need to be very careful about their actions at this point. For the well-being of the nation, for their states, for their own citizens. Are they really saying that they can't be trusted to keep their word, and behave civilly? Are they saying that they will not abide by the rule of law?
You do not know what you are talking about! Why should the Florida democrats be penalized for a republican tactic that set the primary date too early, overriding the opposition of democrats. It seems to me that the republicans set this up brilliantly to drive Florida to the republicans at the general election and Dean and his totally incompetent team fell for it.
Maybe because all the candidate knew what the consequences were and abided by the rules. Hillary Clinton knew and abided by the rules until she knew she couldn't win. Her won manager said he would accept 50-50 on Meet the Press last week, Now he changes his mind. What about the other candidates? They followed the rules. Our country is a "rule of laws". Apparently Clinton feels she does not have to abide by the law or rules. I think it just shows what kind of President she would be. I am a firm believer if you give your word, you don't go back on it. And you can bet, if she were ahead, this would not be happening. This was her plan all along. She will through her dishonesty be the president. No doubt in my mind. However, it that happens, you can rest asure, the Republicans will win and there will no long be a Democratic Party.
I appreciate that you've repeatedly posted that it was the state legislatures (and governors) that set the primary dates, not the state parties.
Alas, I think your attempt to set the record straight will not convince anyone.
People posting here are perfectly capable of finding out the facts through a quick internet search; however, they choose to remain ignorant. I've seen innumerable posts here and at other sites that mis-state how the primary dates were set, the terms of the 4-state pledge, etc.
Interestingly, people's willful ignorance on this matter parallels that of the people who insist that Obama is a Muslim.
If it is Republican tactics maybe Florida should turn their sites on the Florida Legislature and Governor. Vote them out of office. Maybe if Florida residents would pay attention to what goes on in Florida they might not have this problem. The problem is Republicans but you are blaming the Democrats, why? Florida voted these officials into office. Seems time for a house cleaning in Florida.
Grow up!
I remember another Florida fiasco of 2000.
We got stuck with 8 years of an idiot in control.
Let's not repeat the experience.
We won't survive.
If FL and MI delegations are seated, they will have been REWARDED and will have gotten what they were after all along: The first and last say in the Democratic Party's nomination.
The powers that be behind this stunt will also have successfully eliminated the votes of the citizens who would have voted in the election had they believed "it would count". Populist votes, for populist candidates; that's not Hillary. Hillary is the establishment's candidate. Barack Obama wasn't the only Democratic candidate in the race who abided by the rules of the contest, didn't campaign, removed his name from the ballot, etc.
We will never know the true and accurate preference of Florida's and Michigan's citizens. Yes, like 2000, Florida's citizens are screwed, but it's up to Florida's (and Michigan's) citizens to go after the REAL culprits who are stealing their votes. Once you research who was behind this effort to leapfrog over all other states, you can lay that blame at the feet of the Clinton machine and their surrogates. [See the Clintons' Cuban-connection (and problem), Debbie and John Dingell.]
Again, why don't you take the trouble and look up the facts. In Florida the date was set by the republican majority over the opposition of the democrats. They did it because they wanted to cause trouble in the democratic party and Dean and the DNC leadership swallowed it. What a sorry party we are with such incompetent leadership!!
Dean and the DNC were no more in control of what Florida's Republican legislature did than the Florida democrats. Why not see this for what it truly was? Florida Republicans doing what they do best, which is play Florida democrats like a fine-tuned instrument. Do you think the Florida legislature didn't know what the penalty would be? Republicans right now are scrambling, and they need to throw a wrench into the democratic side of things. What the Florida Republican legislature did was wrong, but also brilliant. Look at the mass chaos, to use Limbaugh's operation, they have caused. The democrats are so busy fighting each other, they are going to hand the General Election to the Republicans once again. What should have happened, and probably would have happened if Hillary Clinton's ego did not get into the way, is that the democratic candidates should have just accepted the way it was like they initially did. Hillary wants to win, which is the ONLY reason she wants the votes to now count. Anyone who doesn't see that is only fooling themselves. Hillary did not stand up for the voters of Michigan and Florida initially. Ask yourselves why she is doing it now and be honest. She is the one who is now perpetuating this thing by now making the voters of Michigan and Florida think she is on our side. She isn't. She is on HER side.
My recall on this is that the Democrats in the state legislature went along with this. That complicity gave the candidates permission to treat the primary as legitimate, and Senator Clinton maximized that to campaign for votes. The other candidates left their names on the ballot but did not campaign. In Michigan, only Senator Clinton left her name on the ballot. I don't think Florida Democrats have anything to bellyache about, and I would think that regardless of which candidate "won" the primary. The DNC Rules Committee agreed unanimously to assign one-half of the delegates rather than the full delegate if primaries were held in Florida and Michigan. Harold Ickes is on that committee, and was part of the agreement. He is a major strategist for the Clinton campaign. It seems to me that their campaign began agitating to count these votes only when her nomination was no longer inevitable.
Nonsense - it was NOT at the opposition of the Florida Democrats in the legislature.
What I don't really see when this issue is being discussed, is this - if the shoe were on the other foot - and Clinton was not so far behind the eight ball - I don't think she would be up in arms for the "fairness" of having FL and MI seated. Obviously she wasn't that interested at first - but the more it looked as though she were going to lose, the more she fought to have them seated. If Obama was in her place she would NEVER be fighting to hard for it. Can ANYONE tell me she would be? I don't think so. Clinton is only interested in fairness as it pertains to her.
She's not actually even looking for fairness. Those primaries in FL and MI were open primaries. Back then, before Operation Chaos was in operation, Republicans and independents were voting not only for Democrats (Obama) but for candidates in the Republican Party - McCain hadn't locked up the nomination.
Early on, when everyone was negotiating possible fixes (and before McCain had had the necessary number of delegates to win his party's nomination), Hillary Clinton refused to agree to an open primary. Democrats only! That was when sincere Republicans and independents were crossing over to vote for Obama.
Hillary Clinton has been trying to game this race, win it by hook or by crook, anyway but fairly and by abiding by the rules.
FL primaries are CLOSED.
Yes, she's all about fairness. She repeatedly states that she "believes" that the people should be heard, that their votes matter. That is unless they are from a state that she lost, in which case she reminds us that the even the pledged delegates, aren't REQUIRED to vote for the candidate they were chosen to represent by the voters.
So which is it Hillary? Do the voters matter, or not?
The blame for the messes in Florida and Michigan rest solely on the shoulders of Florida and Michigan Democrats; not on Howard Dean or Barrack Obama or any Democrat outside of Michigan or Florida. Everyone, including Clinton, agreed to abide by the DNC's rules before the primaries began. At that time, Clinton thought she had the nomination locked-up so she didn't give a s**t about Michigan and Florida voters. But when she discovered she wasn't going to get elected if she followed the rules she agreed to follow, she conveniently started caring about Michigan and Florida voters. People who knowingly break the rules should not be rewarded for breaking them. And people who agree to abide by the rules should not be rewarded for reneging on the promise to abide by them. In my mind, including Florida and Michigan voters in a manner that favors one candidate over the other is tantamount to ex post facto law. It's wrong. It's arbitrary and unfair. It's un-American!
I went onto one of her web sights today to see if they'd let me blog! I couldn't even get my question on there. They won'lt even let you discuss any thing unless it's to praise Mrs. Clinton! Just how fair is that? here you can ask questions about both candidates! Some times you get called dumb for not know ing the ans. already. But, along comes some one who will give you the answer. Some are rude and others are nice. Some are smart, with smart opinions, and some are dumb. Otherwise every on of color,religeon and partys blog here an usually listen to each other.
Wow, it looks like most of the people here have no clue why the Florida primaries were held early! It certainly can not be blamed on the Florida democrats. It was a republican ploy and you all are falling for it. How sad....
This may have been a Republican ploy, but it was foisted on the citizens with help from Florida's Democrats.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2007/09/florida_democrats_doing_the_ri.html
That stock answer is also the truth and all the information that is required to understand. Nothing else. 27 EVs (fully one tenth needed to win in the fall) and the history of FL mean EVERYTHING! This blind spot with the DNC and negotiation crap is almost as amazingly arrogant as thinking that disentrancing 2.3M voters would be suitable or accepted resolution in a democracy.
Dean has been trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear in his mess for months now.
Dean, attempting to seat those voters in an inequitable fashion or only after the nominee is chosen is blatantly obvious, as is his lack of leadership or just straight corruption (you choose) on this subject. Dean, Obama and the DNC are inexorably linked to the mess as demonstrated by the fact in a head-to-head FL race against McCain Clinton wins while Obama loses by 10 points!
OH, MI, PA and NJ will relate to the BS from the arrogant and elite DNC run by Dean, Kennedy, Kerry, Hart, Bradley and company, seeing right through another liberal candidate being crammed down the throat of all Democrats, who has split the party no less, when we really need someone that can relate to basic democratic principles.
So if Florida doesn't get it's way they won't vote for the Democratic nominee?
That's pathetic to vote against womens rights, Supreme court justices and policies which have been screwing the nation for the last 7 years.
IDIOTS! Grow the Hell up!
Your damn right we won't . If the DNC doesn't care enough to count our vote equally we'll find a party that does.
First you want your vote to count. If it doesn't than the other issues don't even matter.
The Vote first. I just filed to leave the party yesterday after 20 years.
You should really be angry with whoever it was that decided to flaunt the rules and break them. There are consequences to actions and this is one of them. Why didn't they hold the primary at a time when these issues would be mute? But instead it is easier to be angry when no one says, " Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to disenfranchise you - even though the rules were broken." ? How many of you took busloads to the offices of the people who caused the problem in the first place? Your anger is misplaced.
Speak for yourself. Our state party leadership went along with the shift in the primary date. No matter what they tell you. If you want to be pissed at anyone, then be pissed at them.
I cannot believe you care more about how many delegates get seated, then about taking back this country in the fall. You selfish, selfish person. Give Hillary the proportion she won in both primaries, and Obama still wins. Besides the vote that matters is the one in November. I assume you are a Clinton supporter. I support Obama, but would back her 150% if she pulled it out.
Get over yourself and think about the future of America. You let John McCain in the White House and we will be in Iran in the next 2 years.
If there are no consequences for failing to keep agreements (MI and FL leapfrogging over all of the other states after the representatives to the DNC agreed on the format and the order by which the primaries would be held), what's to prevent other states from doing the same thing as MI and FL in 2012?
Isn't this the very model of our democracy? If MI and FL refuse to abide by the rules they signed on to, how can we have a democracy in which we all agree to abide by the rule of law?
MI and FL need to be very careful about their actions at this point. For the well-being of the nation, for their states, for their own citizens. Are they really saying that they can't be trusted to keep their word, and behave civilly? Are they saying that they will not abide by the rule of law?
oh come on gsikev! What party? one with Mccain who has a memory problem, and wants a 100 year war, and aiming at iran with war talk to? Maybe, Hillary who can't seem to tell much trueth to any of you in Fl or MI. Did you know Michigan came up with what they thought was a fair solution for them and Hillary is so selfish if she can't have them all , she says No! Look I left the Republican party because we can't survive another 8 year of Bush policies with Mccain. That took a lot of guts, and willingness to change the way you think about things. You have to wieght up all the pro's and con's and any one who would stay behind some one like Mccain, don't really care about how many of our loved ones get killed in one war after another war. Ya so your disappointed! I'm disappointed that my republican party couldn't pick a decent candidate for Presidsent, while you at least had one fairlly good one, and a real good one! Man look what we got stuck with! And you Fl an MI think you have it rough? Good grief, look at Mccain for pete sake an if your stupid enough to vote for that, than you deserve another 8 years of Bush/Channey/Mccains wars and broken politics!
Good bye Kyle. Dont forget to Stomp your feet on the way out. Maybe if the good people of Florida paidattention to what happened in Florida they would not have this problem. You voted these people into office in Florida. So dont blame us.
In the end, even though the Florida and Michigan delegations will be seated, they will have been punished by being denied what they were after to begin with: a real say in the Democratic Party nomination. By attempting to move their state primary elections up, Michigan and Florida were trying to force a break with longstanding tradition that hands Iowa and New Hampshire a disproportionate say in the nomination. By bucking the party, Florida and Michigan risked sanctions. They played their hands and lost. Now they're crying.
One can argue the fairness of the current traditional system that favors Iowa and New Hampshire. Perhaps both political parties have been remiss by not coming up with a fairer system. But the correct way to deal with that is gather enough support among those who vote on the primary schedule. The way not to deal with it is to play chicken with the party and force the party to uphold its own rules. That way madness lies.
If the Democrats lose those Florida or Michigan in the general election and it ends up costing the Democrats the presidency, I'm not going to be blaming the DNC. From where I sit, Florida and Michigan will have screwed it up for everybody.
I totally agree, PaulC. They jumped ahead of the line and I say, right on DNC. Stick to your guns. If the DNC doesn't and give them what they want, it is totally unfair to the other states that went by the rules. Living in North Carolina, we have always voted late in the pirmaries and our votes usually were just tokens. But, we waited our turn and look what happened!
I think, after all of the primaries are over and we have a pretty clear cut winner, then allocate Michigan's and Florida's delegates 50-50, split them down the middle for Obama and Clinton. Then their delegates can be seated.
If they aren't satisfied with that, then give them nothing and they can take their ball and go home and watch the convention in the comfort of their livingrooms like the rest of us non-delegates. Florida always goes Republican, anyway.
Like you, I blame Florida and Michigan, not the DNC. I am proud of one thing the DNC has done, they have stuck by their guns.
Amen to that, lefthandedrn; I live in PA and can't remember the last time that my primary even mattered. Sorry to say this, but people from FL and MICH who are crying foul are just a bunch of irrational whiners who failed to hold their state officials accountable (especially MICH, where Dem. Governor [and Clinton surrogate] Jennifer Granholm SIGNED the legislation that defied DNC rules). These whiners are blaming Dean for enforcing the rules instead of blaming their officials for breaking. What a terrible precedent that they are setting. What kind of lesson are politically informed youth getting from this? That adults are just as immature as kids when they want their own way? Pathetic.
"In the end, even though the Florida and Michigan delegations will be seated, they will have been punished by being denied what they were after to begin with: a real say in the Democratic Party nomination."
If FL and MI delegations are seated, they would have been REWARDED and would have gotten what they were after all along: THE say in the Democratic Party's nomination. They would have successfully eliminated the votes of their citizens (who would have voted in the election had they believed "it would count") - Populist votes, for populist candidates. Hillary is the establishment's candidate.
We will never know the true and accurate preference of Florida's citizens. And once you research who was behind this effort to leapfrog over all other states, you can lay that blame at the feet of the Clinton campaign and their surrogates. [See the Clintons' Cuban-connection (and problem).]
Oh no, it is only the DNC to be blamed. And you can be sure that most of the democrats, including me, will blame them.
I agree with the point you are making about the Iowa and New Hampshire tradition. It is a remnant of a bygone era which should be abolished. The primaries should be decided based on the votes of the states that decide the general elections. It sure is not Iowa or New Hampshire, but rather California, Ohio, Florida, New York, Texas, etc. And when we reform the system we should also abolish caucuses. I have a lot of friends in caucus states and many of them reports anomalies that points to heavy fraud by the Obama camp. Of course this can not be proved because there is no paper trail, not even an identification required that the caucus goer really lives in the state. How convenient. It would serve democracy best if this anachronism was abolished.
So, with this logic, why even let the "unimportant" states vote at all? It just comes down to the big states anyway.
Obama has played by the rules. Hillary was a household name when Florida voted, Obama was still relatively unknown. He has proved however in subsequent primaries, that given a chance to campaign in each state, he can beat Hillary's ass. It would be grossly unfair to allow Florida's (or Michigan's) vote to count as is. Hillary agreed to the disqualification of both Florida and Michigan. She is only complaining (and whining) now because she has been soundly beaten. It is time to support Obama, the winner.
He lost in Ohio and Pennsylvania. Michigan, with the same demographics, would have turned out the same. Florida, with a large contingent of former New Yorkers in the southern part of the state, would have voted the same way.
You can always tell a partisan by how they twist the truth. Or lie outright.
Gasparilla, Obama's name was not on the Michigan ballot. Hillary Clinton signed a document and announced that the election didn't count, votes wouldn't be counted. The other candidates removed their names after they signed pledges, but Hillary didn't remove remove her name. How deceitful is that? With her name on the ballot, 45% of the voters checked off "ANYBODY ELSE, PLEASE!" rather than vote for Hillary Clinton.
I have heard from many in Florida, my own family among them, who didn't vote because they were told it wasn't going to count.
Ohio and Pennsylvania (and every other state which had a primary after March 4th when John McCain secured the Republican nomination), Hillary Clinton really can't brag about because they were open primaries where crossover voters with no intention of voting for her in November voted for her because they believe she's easier to beat.
Michigan and Florida tried to screw all of the other states by jumping ahead. MI and FL wanted to nullify my vote by jumping ahead. As it is, my preferred candidate (both of them) dropped out by the time my state's primary was held. That's life. It's time for MI and FL (and Hillary, whose surrogates are behind this and not Florida's and Michiganders' voters) to move on and get ready for the general election.
You don't know how Fl or Mi would have voted Gasparilla! We got a shock in this mosstlly white state of ours when he took by 35%. She's taken only 3 states by more than 17%. Obama has taken double that many. They split the big state of texas right down the center, and mexico only by 2% went to Hillary and that's the Margin of error. While she took a big win in W. Virgina, the very next day Edwards committed to obama and he got some of edwards delagates. and others started committeing behind Obama. Mccain and even bush has decided Obama was the nomanee and going after him. Obama is tough. He hasn't only had Mccain going after him . He's had to contend with Hillary's attacks as well know as presidsents bush's attacks, and the repub's groups. he fought them all Gasparill and still strong. Hillary can't do that and he finance's is a disaster and her delegates are jumping to Obama. It's a sure sighn of weakness and defeat. Time to face facts and get on with it , now that we have a strong nomanee who's already takeing and deflecting the repub's punch's!
As a Florida resident I'm here to tell you there was no hue and cry - no media coverage no nothing when the state Legislature moved the Florida primaries early in violation of national rules.
We got news coverage in the Tampa Tribune and St. Pete Times that Hillary was busy attending private fund raising parties held at wealthy democrat's homes around the state - but there was zero campaigning.
It seems very much like cheating to me to suddenly come to life later and start jockeying to change things.
To hear the Clinton campaign push to be given votes in Michigan where my candidate wasn't even on the ballot really turns my stomach.
I'm very proud of my candidate who came so stunningly from behind and I think he deserves a fair shake.
I'm one of those older white women from New York - don't assume who my candidate is!
Your candidate was not on the ballot in Michigan by his own choice. he took his name off in the last minute when he saw the he would be badly beaten, just as he was in Florida and in mots of the large states that will decide the general election. How convenient: Obama is on the ballot if he has a good chance to win, and takes his name off, when he is about to lose badly.
Obama attended fundraisers in FL AND ran ads.
"Florida Deserves Representation (FDR) founder Jim Hannigan of Palm Harbour, organizer of the bus-protest , says he is angry that his vote is not being counted and would not be satisfied with the so-called l/2 vote solution. "We want our full vote."...............
I under stand that in a primary like this, that their votes would not count BUT
1. You broke the rules and rules are not there to be broken.(this is something the GOP would say and do). So if you want to side with the GOP - BECAUSE you broke the rules then do it.
All 211 delegates can not count or it will show the world that the dems are not about nothing they make rules and then under 'threat' they caved in............
If florida does not like the rules, tough..........It is what it is.
Aha, rules are more important than true democracy.
Where have I heard this?
Yes, I remember now, this was the mantra in the Sowjet Union and all the communist block for half a century.
THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT
This is a fight for control between government and private organizations—political parties, not between candidates; with elements of a state-national party power struggle.
Both States launched revolutions against the national parties (DNC/RNC), Michigan for the second time. Note that it was formally the STATES themselves (state government, but with the consent of the state Dem. parties) doing this. They tried to subvert the party’s authority.
What FL/MI wanted to do was not only set the timing of its primaries, which they can do, but also to force the parties to go along with their diktat. But parties determine what/when/how/where is a legitimate “party” primary or not. FL/MI tried to force the DNC to recognize as “official Dem.” primaries that violated its rules, the only way to comply meant changing DNC rules.
THE STAKES
DNC/RNC capitulation would’ve meant a state gov’t dictating policies to parties about how to conduct the party’s own affairs. When government makes policies for the internal operations of political parties, we no longer have independent parties.
Since the RNC chose a nominee much earlier, it’s not an issue. The RNC ultimately decided to let each vote count as ½. If that race were very tight, for certain there’d be fighting in the GOP, too.
Michigan and Florida played “chicken” with the DNC/RNC, with the price being the disenfranchisement of their voters, and lost.
Keep government out of party internal affairs.
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