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Samuel Brown

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Mormonism's Abandoned Race Policy: Context Matters

Posted: 08/30/2012 12:01 pm

The insightful and sympathetic observer of Mormonism, John G. Turner (history professor at George Mason University) offered recently in the New York Times the most incisive call yet for Mormon leadership to formally repudiate Mormonism's historic (ca. 1852-1978) refusal to allow people of African descent to participate fully in the church.

In responding to Professor Turner, I want to emphasize three basic points in his excellent editorial that are commonly misunderstood.

First, some Mormons are racist.

Second, some Mormons are not racist.

Third, whether Mormon church leaders should issue an institutional apology for the prior policy of racial exclusion is about more than just racism.

The first point should go without saying because many humans are racist and Mormons are human. But even though it should be obvious, this point matters enough to say it explicitly. Some modern Latter-day Saints (LDS) still believe and employ the toxic folklore that once made sense of the policy of racial exclusion. (That folklore, while using some idiosyncratically Mormon imagery, does not differ in fundamentals from other racist Christian folklore.) This racism occurs more among people of prior generations and it appears to be waning, but this is a fact that must be acknowledged in any discussion of Mormonism and race.

Second, and this point warrants frequent repetition, many Latter-day Saints are appalled by racism. Many of them see the pre-1978 policy as a national sin that church leaders should have avoided but didn't. Many of them see the persistence of folklore and the refusal to issue an institutional apology as markers of Mormon difference from broader American society with unfortunate ramifications. Many believe that their predecessors were not as different from other Americans as they should have been. Most Americans have grandparents or great-grandparents, perhaps even parents, who were or are unapologetically racist. This racism bothers most of us, but when they are people we know well, we tend to try to contextualize their racism, to see them as products of their cultural setting, even as we gently correct them where possible. Many Latter-day Saints have a similarly familial relationship with their church and its past. As few other religious groups in modern America, Mormons honor their recent predecessors, tell stories about them, explicitly reenact their epic experiences in pageants and special campouts. They study those predecessors in their Sunday School classes and other worship services. These Latter-day Saints love the Church and want the very best for it. They are generally willing to contextualize prior racism as they would for a family member, even as they hope to eliminate its vestiges in the contemporary church.

There are at least two types of Mormons who are not racists, though, and that fact points to the third idea I want to emphasize. Some non-racist LDS would very much like the LDS Church to repudiate the racial exclusion policy and its associated folklore, including a formal institutional apology, just as Professor Turner and others have recommended. Other non-racist Mormons feel that the 1978 termination of the racial exclusion policy was fully adequate, and an institutional apology would have significant secondary effects that would be toxic to the Church.

The secondary effects of such an institutional apology are important to consider, and I congratulate Turner for recognizing this explicitly. Put simply, the question of repudiation of the prior racial exclusion policy is about more than racism. It is also a question about community ties and Mormon theologies of divine revelation. Painting Mormon reluctance to repudiate their church's prior policy as mere racism is unfair and inaccurate. For many LDS, respect for the authority of prior Church leaders is more important than compliance with modern expectations about penance for prior racism. I think for many Latter-day Saints, being in most respects modern Americans, the tension between loyalty to past church leaders and revulsion toward racism feels insoluble. They feel damned if they do and damned if they don't: they can either doubt the integrity of their spiritual leaders or be accused of racism. Forced to choose, many of them commit to their church and hope that their own lives make clear that they are not personally racist.

I suspect that most LDS would be delighted to reject their history of racial exclusion if there were only a way to do so that would not threaten their beliefs about prophetic reliability. This tension has immediate relevance for contemporary Mormons in the midst of current culture wars. Modern Mormons are currently being asked by their leaders to adhere to a particular view of gender, particularly as it applies to female leadership and heterosexual marriage norms. If earlier LDS leaders were simply wrong about race, what keeps them from being wrong about gender? Though Mormonism contains a variety of ideas about the significance of gender, in both theory and practice, for many the question of prior racial exclusion feels relevant to current debates about sexual identity.

Outsiders should recognize that Mormonism is not just an idiosyncratic Protestant denomination. While Mormons strongly desire the title Christian, they are not Protestant. There are elements of Mormon life that make it difficult for church leaders to issue an institutional apology. Mormons believe that they are a modern Israel led by modern prophets, and they see the voice of those prophets as having special authority. Repudiating such prophetic voices feels disloyal, like rejecting the Bible, which is, after all, a collection of prophetic voices from the past. Professor Turner suggests that Mormons could use biblical precedent to incorporate the possibility of prophetic fallibility. Many of the famous figures in the Bible made huge mistakes, as he correctly notes. In my experience, this approach has not been terribly successful; it is easier for many LDS to accept fallible prophets in an ancient culture than in their own lifetime. In part that comes from the powerful security that comes from seeing current church leaders as divinely inspired and authorized. Many LDS find great meaning in the confidence that their leaders are divinely inspired. Because of the theology and structure of their church, many non-racist Mormons have a difficult path ahead. Mormons, both individually and institutionally, will find their way through the sharp tensions associated with cultural change and the growing consensus that racist views are toxic. But they will need to find their own way, and that way will almost certainly involve specifically Latter-day Saints assumptions and practices.

For outside observers, then, I would offer the following advice: First, recognize that whether Mormon leaders formally apologize for historic racial exclusion or not is about more than race and racism. Second, workable solutions for Mormons loyal to their church and repulsed by racism will take time and special attention to the particularities of Mormon life and religion.

 
 
 
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10:00 PM on 10/17/2012
Again, someone not a member of the church speaks for members. We do not apologize for God.
God decided when the Negro race (collectively and not individually) was to be given the blessing
of the priesthood. Hint; It has to do with pre-existant life (a doctrine of the church) . It was God's
call, not mans. There will therefore never be an apology or repudiation. And although this will never
be accepted or understood by the world it makes no difference. It is not in the church's power to
be politically correct against God's will.
11:49 PM on 10/09/2012
!8 years ago my daughter was date raped. Descion was made to put child up for adoption. Met with a representative of Mormon church who was to talk to us about adopting child. He at first told us there were numerous families who would adopt this child. When he found out child was bi-racial he then told us child would be placed with a black family where at first it was assumed family would be white. When we expressed surprise at this change. He said "You want her to be with her own kind. Don't you?'" This was an official of the church. Is this not racism?
08:04 PM on 09/12/2012
It's funny how a dogma once hawked as "eternal truth" can be so cavalierly dismissed as mere "folklore" that somehow, golly gee, must have gotten mixed in with all those great Divine revelations.
10:00 PM on 09/07/2012
So few here seem to really know history... maybe this will help... The explanation that black Africans, as the "sons of Ham", were cursed, "blackened" by their sins, was advanced during the Middle Ages, but became common during the slave trade of the 18th and 19th centuries. The curse of Cain was used to support a ban on ordaining blacks to most Protestant clergies until the 1960s in both the U.S. and Europe. The split between the Northern and Southern Baptist organizations arose over slavery and the education of slaves. At the time of the split, the Southern Baptist group used the curse of Cain as a justification for slavery. Some 19th and 20th century Baptist ministers in the southern United States taught that there were two separate heavens; one for blacks, and one for whites. Many Protestant groups in America had supported the notion that black slavery, oppression, and African colonization was the result of God's curse on people with black skin or people of African descent through Cain or through the curse of Ham, and some churches practiced racial segregation as late as the 1990s. The Civil Rights movement occurred in the 1960s, culminating in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Historians know that the “Act” didn’t change centuries-old bigotry, and segregation overnight. In fact, it was not until 1995 that the Southern Baptist Convention officially renounced its "racist roots” and denounced racism and apologized for its past defense of slavery.
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arcanumseeker
Is it schizoid paranoia or just existential blues?
07:15 PM on 09/09/2012
Which has nothing to do with Mormonism, which touts to be the One True Church!
12:14 PM on 09/06/2012
Oh, now it's okay for African Americans to have full membership into this church that said " You can stick your toe in the water but don't immerse your whole body" this exceptance is just coming out now? I wonder why? It was just recently that I read about how African Americans weren't allowed full inclusion into the Mormon church. Now that a Mormon is running for president, they're going to allow African Americans to dive right in? Well I guess this is good news for those that want to join the Mormon church. It's true that many humans are racist but, GOD commands that we are to love one another. And there are too many people profressing to be GOD loving, yet they will reject another because of their race (among other things). This is shameful!!
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netzach
Voiding warranties for 42 years
10:19 AM on 09/07/2012
"... this exceptance is just coming out now? ..."

No.

Besides the fact that people of every colour - from Scandinavian white to Tongan black - have ALWAYS been welcomed as members of the Church, the idea that the "[acceptance] is just coming now" is completely off base. The change in Priesthood policy happened in 1978 - some 35 years ago.

We were just over 3 million members back then. Right now, we're closing in on 15 million. That means that no more than 1 in 5 have ever known the Church with a restrictive policy about Priesthood in place.

And it's probably more like one in 6 or one in 7 because of Mormons who have passed on.
09:48 PM on 09/07/2012
You may not have done your research.... and especially do not know much in the way of history.... African Americans have always been welcome in the LDS Church....

Today there are over 1 million Mormons of black African heritage worldwide. While African-Americans make up just 3 percent of Mormons in the United States, according to a 2009 Pew Research Center study, they make up 9 percent of Mormon converts… In Africa, now at just over 300,000 Latter-day Saints, church membership has grown by almost 10,000 new members per year, and they now have 3 LDS Temples there, and are building 2 more.
01:43 AM on 09/08/2012
Shouldn't the end of your post have a disclaimer in really small letters, so no one can actually read it that states: "Paid for by anonymous donors to the Mormon History Outreach Center...visit www.iheartmormons.org for more information"

Something like that?
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arcanumseeker
Is it schizoid paranoia or just existential blues?
07:18 PM on 09/09/2012
k2braptup
2 Fans Unfan

23 hours ago ( 7:47 PM)
@dandinnell>>Maybe you'd better look up a few people before you assume I hadn't read up on it. I suggest you delve a little deeper. Read up on Brigham Young to see how he felt about Blacks in the Mormon church.
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness
10:33 PM on 09/04/2012
There seem to be two choices for people who claim to be Christians (followers of Jesus); 1. Believe Jesus was a truthful individual and believe what He said and believed (if you can figure that out), or 2. Believe that Jesus is something like an un-protected "Trade Name" that can be co-opted for your own religions aggrandizement. Here is something to consider, "The sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:3-5 Was Joseph Smith a "stranger" compared to the beliefs of "true" Christianity? Are the beliefs of Mormonism today the same as those of "true" Christianity as set out in the Bible? Do the official beliefs of Mormonism in effect say, "Jesus didn't tell the truth" and if so, is that "following Jesus" and encouraging others to believe in "The Real Jesus"?
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arcanumseeker
Is it schizoid paranoia or just existential blues?
01:19 AM on 09/05/2012
Mormons have a Different Jesus with a Different Gospel. They are Polytheists not Christian!!!
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netzach
Voiding warranties for 42 years
10:48 AM on 09/05/2012
Our Jesus is the one that was born about 2000 years ago. Lived a perfect life. Died for the sins of all mankind. Sorry if that's not the one you worship.

Our gospel is the one that was originally taught, prior to being infused with all the NeoPlatonic claptrap.
01:15 PM on 09/05/2012
@iLdoright - The difficult task with your question is the use of the term "true Christianity." By that phrase I am assuming you mean the beliefs held today by most of the Christian world. Yet there is a fallacy of assumption in that statement. Since Christianity's doctrine wasn't standardized until the 4th century, how can we be sure that what most Christian's believe today was exactly what Christians believed in the 1st century? There is no way of knowing that.

Logic would tell us that we don't know what 1st Century Christians believed because what survived is what the 4th Century Christians wanted to survive. So many books were burned and people killed who disagreed with the Creeds that we shall never know what they truly believed.
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness
06:10 AM on 09/06/2012
Tony Randell on an "Odd Couple" episode was the first person I heard say, "When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me". True Christianity is what it is. If anyone wants to study the Bible thoroughly enough to know what it is and their brain works fairly well they can probably find out what it is. Having a recorded copy of the complete Bible and listening to it many, many times and considering all the Biblical information offered to me and checking it all has helped me to understand what "True Christianity" is. Some people are just "religious team players doing verbal scrimmages" with the biases programmed into them by their "religious team" that was not designed to promote "True Christianity".
08:53 PM on 09/04/2012
Finally, in 1978, the LDS Church totaled about 4 million members. It is now 14 million. Most of the Mormons now were NOT Mormons in 1978. They were born or joined the church AFTER the restriction was ended. They have NEVER been part of a Mormon Church that discrimnated by race against some of its own members. They have no connection to that past policy. And that is 3/4 of the current Mormon population. If you are black and you walk up to a Mormon missionary and ask to be baptized, he or she will be happy to accommodate you, as soon as you have demonstrated sincere interest by listening to the basic lessons, reading the Book of Mormon, attending church on Sunday, and give up alcohol and tobacco and extramarital sex. I have yet to see any commentators on race and Mormons, who are not already Mormons, making the effort to attend a local Mormon church and meet the actual people they want to indict for racism. They will be surprised to find Mormons come in every color, including the Haitian immigrants that Mitt Romney aided in Boston and the Cambodian refugees who also joined the church there, creating the need for a Cambodian-speaking congregation that he established. Witness Mia Love, Haitian immigrant daughter, and a Mormon, who won 70% of the delegates at the Republican state convention and is running for Utah's 4th Congressional district against a Mormon Democrat.
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xxixpines
Truth often causes wailing and gnashing of teeth
06:33 PM on 09/05/2012
it was realised in 1978, it was changed and what was the result?

Do you understand Ka-Ching!
08:49 PM on 09/04/2012
Another point to remember is that the priesthood restriction ONLY affected blacks who were also Mormon. Blacks who were never members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were not affected in any way. Mormons were originally from New England, the Mid-Atlantic states, and then from Britain and Scandinavia. Very few were from the South. Utah Territory identified with and supported the Union, not the Confederacy. There was no plantation farming in Utah, but lots of small hard-scrabble individual farms. There was no school segregation, and no segregation among congregations in the Church. And later on, when the restriction ended, if you were black but not Mormon, it likewise had NO effect on you. The question that NO ONE asks when they attack Mormons on this issue is, Why did black people join the Mormon Church, knowing about the restriction, and why did they stay with it? There were black families in the congregation I grew up in in Salt Lake City in the 1950s. I helped teach and baptize a black Army sergeant in Colorado Springs in 1974. He told us thaty he had visited many churches in that city, but only the Mormons made him feel at home. The only reason I know that blacks joined the Mormon Church is because they felt it was a place where they could be closer to God than in other churches. That is why hundreds of thousands of blacks have joined since 1978, especially in Africa.
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xxixpines
Truth often causes wailing and gnashing of teeth
06:34 PM on 09/05/2012
that is some really nice s p i n.
08:46 PM on 09/04/2012
The entire picture of race and Mormons is more complicated than most non-Mormons assume.
First, if Brigham Young was a general purpose "racist", why did he direct so much into converting the American Indians among whom the Mormons lived? The Book of Mormon teaches that the Indians are descendants of a branch of Israel, that left Israel circa 600 BC, and that God has special promises for those descendants.
Second, Young and other Mormons actively sought to convert Polynesians. Among them was Joseph F. Smith, who later became one of Young's successors. The success of Mormon recruiting led to the establishment of a Mormon town at Laie, where Brigham Young University Hawaii is located, serving students from 70 nations around the Pacific Rim.
Third, Young and his immediate successors supported recruiting of people in Latin America, which has led to more than a million Mormons in Mexico and another million in Brazil.
Fourth, in the 1870s, the Japanese ambassador to the US was stuck in Salt Lake for a month due to snows on the railroad tracks. A direct result of that stay was a mission to Japan in 1901 led by Heber J. Grant, who became Mormon president in 1918. My father was a missionary in Japan in 1949-1952, and I served there in 1969-1971. My mother is a native Japanese.
So, Mormons have been actively recruiting and ordaining people of many non-white races throughout their entire history, for some 150 years before 1978.
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xxixpines
Truth often causes wailing and gnashing of teeth
06:35 PM on 09/05/2012
You are well versed in cherry picking your information.
03:48 PM on 10/08/2012
You're forgetting the bigger issue that Mormon teachings often explain dark and or brown skin as the mark or sign of a curse from God and this was reinforced as revelation from God by LDS prophets in talks, manuals and in First Presidency Statements— the last as late as 1969.

The only curse that resulted in a ban from the Priesthood ban was the Curse of Cain. True other were non-whites allowed to hold the Priesthood before 1978 but they were still judged based on their skin color as people descended from those cursed by God. The so-called Lamanites are a prime example and as in many instances it was thought that as they became converted and righteous that their skin would become lighter. President Spencer W. Kimball taught as much.

The ban aside, to teach and promote the doctrine that dark skin is the mark of a curse from God is racist by definition not matter what else the LDS Church did.
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raker
03:23 PM on 09/04/2012
Mormons have a history of hanging onto their offensive practices until societal disgust embarrasses them into making a change. I'd say that's as good an example as any of moral bankruptcy.
02:01 AM on 09/08/2012
You just gave a broad definition of any religion that has survived at least a few centuries. Any religion has to progress (some way slower than others obviously), for it to stay relevant. This is why most religions don't survive. It's not just a Mormon thing, it's probably just easier to notice because their progression in America has been forced to be more rapid than say Christianity or Islam.
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raker
11:37 AM on 09/08/2012
It's more noticeable not only because Mormonism is relatively new, it's a kind of imitation of the world's old religions conceived by someone with only a passing familiarity of those religions. And it's got a lot of new nonsense cooked up to make it OK for men to keep taking teenage lovers.

Those old religions have survived for eons despite making progress at less than a snail's pace. And when they do take a human-sized step, as the Catholics did with Vatican 2, they immediately regret it and take two giant steps backward to restore equilibrium.
01:33 PM on 09/04/2012
1. "Journal of Discourses" (JD) is not accepted canon of the LDS church and is not official doctrine of the church. JD is the LDS equivalent of the writings of Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine; writings/sayings of doctrinal thinkers, but not canon. Citation of JD as “church doctrine” is either intended to misrepresent the facts or is ignorant of the way that “church doctrine” is presented publicly and formally accepted by membership through “common consent.” (D&C 28:13) The "Lucifer is Jesus' brother" as church doctrine uses an obscure citation from JD that has never been canonized as church doctrine. Always seems to come up in any "Comments" section of ANY article about the LDS church.
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xxixpines
Truth often causes wailing and gnashing of teeth
09:56 PM on 09/04/2012
Removed canon it would be, from the ever changing cover the fraud church.

Removed canon and historical documentation if what shaped the church.

You can put some very nice smelling soap on it but you can not make it clean no matter how hard you try.
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arcanumseeker
Is it schizoid paranoia or just existential blues?
01:37 AM on 09/05/2012
Hey X, isn't funny how they don't want people to read the Sermons of the Early Church Leaders. Sure is funny because Christian Churches love to have their Sermons read. Well you really can't blame them, they don't want people to find out that they aren't Christian. Isn't it strange that a church would remove such vital works, kind of like what they did with that Salamander letter. Tried to hide it, but people found out anyway. That the good thing about truth, it always wins out.
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arcanumseeker
Is it schizoid paranoia or just existential blues?
01:29 AM on 09/05/2012
The Journal of Discourses is just the Sermons of the Early Leaders of the Church. It is easily accessed at LDS.org and BYU. It is studied and Treasured both by the Church and it's Universities.

You can try to discount the Journal but it actually makes more people curious as to why the Mormons would rather Gentiles not know of it. Sorry, but the proverbial cat is out of the bag. What your leaders said was taken as Gospel by it's members, and now since everybody can read it, it is now discounted. Sorry, but you can't erase history, and that's what those sermons are, a piece of history of the Church. Since you've made such a big to do about it, I'm sure quite a few people have googled it, and are now researching it. So thanks for your help.
11:35 AM on 09/05/2012
Well, if you can Google it, or if it's on a website, it must be true.
Any comment made in any sermon doesnt qualify as truth or doctrine just because somebody said it.
01:23 PM on 09/05/2012
I worked six years as an LDS curriculum writer and we were not allowed to quote JoD in our manuals due to their lack of doctrinal clarity. Too many opinions expressed that were not doctrinal.

So if you want opinions of LDS leaders in the late 1800's, then Journal of Discourses is your source. If you want doctrine then look elsewhere.
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rsttho557949
What is Job's Crucible?
11:53 AM on 09/04/2012
Part 3…

They say that Lucifer was Jesus’ brother (JD 13:282) But the Bible says that Jesus is God’s only begotten Son (John 3:16) and that He created all things like angels (Colossians 1:15, 16).The Bible speaks of a triune (Trinity) Godhead and not some “quadrune” Godhead. Lucifer (an angel) is NEVER associated with the Trinity because he is a CRETATED being (Genesis 1:26; John 1:1; Matthew 28:19; Hebrews 1:7-13).
They teach ( taught or now omit) that Joseph Smith was holding the keys to salvation (JD 7:289; Mormon Doctrine p.411) but the Bible says that Jesus is the SOLE MEDIATOR for salvation (1 Timothy 2:5’ Colossians 2:10; Acts 4:12). They say that salvation comes by works (2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32; DC 76:52; Gospel Principles p. 291.2). But the Bible says that salvation comes ONLY through GRACE (Ephesians 2:8, 9, Romans 11:5, 6; Matthew 5:8, Hebrews 10:14). They claim that they are part of this Melchizidek priesthood. This is part of the “eternal progression” BS that is to lead them to being gods. Poor guys have to pay for their own mission trips to make sue that they are in line for that day of celebration (HC 1:39,40) But the Bible says that Jesus was the only Person QUALIFIED and with all the PREQUESITES to be “King of the Just” because is what Melchizidek means. How can any many be just if Jesus had to die for his sins???
End part 3…
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netzach
Voiding warranties for 42 years
12:45 PM on 09/04/2012
"... Lucifer was Jesus’ brother ... He created all things ..."

Bumper sticker polemics. The only way that Mormons consider Lucifer to by ANYBODY's brother is in the sense that God created him.

"... the Bible speaks of a triune ..."

The Bible does not such thing. The word was invented about 3 centuries after Christ's crucifixion.

"... Joseph Smith was holding the keys to salvation ..."

At the Last Supper, Christ put the keys to judging mankind in the hands of the Apostles. Why do you think that every "died and went to heaven" joke ever told starts with St. Peter at the Pearly Gates?

This, however, does not mean mankind doesn't face Final Judgement, after they make it past the Apostles.

"... They say that salvation comes by works ..."

We say no such thing. We DO teach that even after all we can do (works) we still fall short, and it is only by the atonement that we are saved.

"... Jesus was the only Person ...

Excluding Melchezidek, of course. But Mormons agree with you that Jesus was the only one who could have brought to pass the Atonement.
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rsttho557949
What is Job's Crucible?
02:20 PM on 09/04/2012
None of these charges ( as in criminal behavior) that I presented came from my own head. They are all from your sources and many of them by your leaders. Now one of us is wrong. If you say I'm wrong, then these documents that I've read were also in error. If that is the case, then all Joseph Smith stood for is false. Recall that you folks refer to him as "the prophet". (DC 114, HC 3:171,75, DC84). Recall that in the Bible, Prophets from God have to be 100% accurate as a test to know that they are from God ( Deuteronomy 18:21,22, ) There is a case involving one David Whitmer that "the prophet" said would be helping him dedicate the temple (An address to all believers in Christ p. 27,56). Trouble was that David Whitmer died before Smith plans could be realized. And the temple still hasn't been built on said spot. There is also no "total apostasy" from the faith (P,G,P Joseph Smith 2:18,19; DC 1:30). The Bible says that there will be a PARTIAL apostasy (2 timothy 4:2). Also ONLY Jesus will Judge the living and the dead (2 Timothy 4:1).
End part 1A..
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xxixpines
Truth often causes wailing and gnashing of teeth
03:28 PM on 09/04/2012
Right off the batt a Lucifer Lie.

Truth

"But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)"

No need to continue, your post has been invalidated.

Thanks for playing.
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rsttho557949
What is Job's Crucible?
11:22 AM on 09/04/2012
Part 2…
At this point in my life, I'm beyond the racist stuff about Mormons. I think many of the children raised in Mormon families love their parents and copy their parent’s behaviors. That is nothing new. I do believe that Mormon people, like most people, want to live happy and moral lives. I do believe that they want to live in peace with their neighbor no matter the racial background. What bothers me is the cult-like loyalty that these people have for their fraudulent leaders. If you ring up some thing about Joseph Smith Jr., then it’s "No, he was framed! he didn't have multiple wives. No he wasn't a con artist." You don't hear ANYTHING about Jesus, but you do hear it about their founder. Then when you point the issues in their doctrine that totally contradicts the Bible, they want vociferously deny it. For example:
They say that God is physical (DC 130:22; HC Vol 6:305) but the Bible says God is Spirit (John 4:24). Now did God change?
They say that there is this “eternal progression” where man can “evolve” (yes, they are a religious group that does believe in all kinds of evolution) into a “god”, But the Bible says that God was always God (Malachi 3:6 and Exodus 3:14; John 8:58). No creation of god can become God!

End part 2…
09:04 PM on 09/04/2012
Maybe you can explain and justiofy your accvusation of "cult like behavior"? Is it more than the loyalty that Obama excites among Democrats? When I, as an attorney with two graduate degrees from secular institutions, a 20 years veteran of service as a military officer, and as a corporate counsel for a contractor to the Federal government, believes it is sa good idea to consider and follow the counsel of men and women who I know to be circumspect in their personal lives and to have sacrificed the opportunity to become wealthy in the old professions they gave up when they accepted callings to full-time Church service, exactly how is that "cult like"? There is no way that anyone can plan on becoming a senior full-time Mormon Church leader. You only get there after decades of personal unpaid service, and the chances are small. And anyone who lives in Utah knows that they do not have lavish lifestyles.
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arcanumseeker
Is it schizoid paranoia or just existential blues?
11:45 AM on 09/05/2012
Some Earmarks of Cults

1. Center around an individual or an individual’s misinterpretation of the Bible.

2. Adhere to the interpretations even if proven wrong.

3. Hold an individual’s writings to be in equal authority with Scripture.

4. Add to, take away or change the Bible to suit their teachings.

5. Maintain that they are the only ones that are right.

6. Maintain that they have a new revelation.

7. Maintain that they alone, are God’s chosen.

8. Must earn their salvation by works.

9. Attack the foundational doctrines of Christianity.

10. Lord over their members with an iron fist.

11. Encourage their members to break ties with families etc

Yep, that fits Mormonism to a T!!!
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xxixpines
Truth often causes wailing and gnashing of teeth
06:29 PM on 09/05/2012
Here is an answer in a nutshell.

Lets apply religous faith, though It may not apply to just religous faith.

You will find that several, yet not all qualify.

Many religions qualify as cults,in spite of a respectable image provided to the public.

A cult is any group that sets itself up as the supreme authority between God and Man. Cults claim the following:

1. The Bible is seen as an insufficient guide for spiritual truth. Cult members are told to use the cult’s literature for the proper understanding of God’s truth.

2. Group leaders are seen as God’s “channel of communication” to man. They equate loyalty to the group as loyalty to God.

3. They foster a “we/they” mentality to the world, claiming that only inside the group can one find truth and ultimate salvation, and that outside the group is “Satan’s world.”

4. Doubt and criticism of the group or leaders are disallowed. They often claim that “independent thinking” is evidence of “pride,” and is seen as questioning God and His arrangement for life.

5. Adherents dispense personal identity for the group mold and take on the personality and characteristics of the totalistic environment of the cult.
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rsttho557949
What is Job's Crucible?
11:09 AM on 09/04/2012
People are racist and bigoted even in their own "race". My problem with Mormons is this "final authority" stuff that they have sold to millions. We go back to Galatians 1:8 and we are told what to do if anyone presents a "new and improved" Gospel to believers (Galatians 1:8) spells out c-a-t. But the Mormons believe that God didn't say everything and came up with a new and improved "2nd Edition" Many Mormons say, "John said that there were others things that Jesus did that are not in this book." This tactic-the omission game- like the gays attempt to use, is to place doubt in your mind about the validity of the Bible. In Mark 13:20, Jesus told His followers what things would occur as the end of times was approaching .DECPETION is the theme of what He was teaching. And why is that so important? Because one's soul is at stake! Jesus, also said, 'I've told you all things BEFOREHAND" Mark 13:20. Said another way, there ain't going to be no secret messages. smoke signals or the texting of a new gospel from Him. If we are to believe that Jesus is unchanged, this validates His claim that His words are unchanging (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33).
End part 1…
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netzach
Voiding warranties for 42 years
01:23 PM on 09/04/2012
"... if anyone presents a 'new and improved' Gospel to believers ..."

Exactly! Precisely!! And what was going on in Galatia at the time?

The believers in Galatia, despite having the Holy Ghost, and despite having living Apostles, were going off the doctrinal rails. Paul says that he "marvel[ed] at how quickly was happening. And he told them not to believe anybody that was teaching anything different. Even if it was an angel.

Why? Because the Apostles had been given the keys to the kingdom, and were the "final authority" on doctrine.

What I marvel at is that anyone could believe that the Church, after the Apostles were all killed off and the "final authority" was gone - then managed to stay ON the doctrinal rails for 2000 years.
09:07 PM on 09/04/2012
So exactly where in the Bible does the Bible say that it is the full and complete word of God, and that God cannot add more scripture to it? The Catholic Church does not teach that, nor the Eastern Orthodox churches. If you believe in the Second Coming of Christ, surely He is going to speak something "new" when he shows up. Or is YOUR versionof God mute and unable to come up with original thought? Your attitude is like that of the Pharisees and Sadducees who resented Jesus Christ because he spoke with original authority, not just as an interpreter of the Old Testament.
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rsttho557949
What is Job's Crucible?
11:33 PM on 09/04/2012
Dear coltakashi ,
You were probably raised by caring people who wanted you to grow up right. I have no problem with that. I commend them for that. The problem that I have with Mormons starts with the name "Mormon". Just be Christians and stop with the cult (The church of Jesus Christ and..." Like a classic cult, you want to be "exclusive". Christians are all inclusive. I've heard all the BS of why a Christian can't enter a "Mormon temple" but you can enter any Christian church-even the Vatican without security clearance. The RCC may have added some apocryphal books to justify alms giving and such- but they didn't change the theme of the Bible. No Catholic believes that a man became a god ( Heavenly Father) by some "eternal progression". No Catholic will put ANY religious book above the Bible, No Catholic believes in three level of heaven. No Catholic believes that God is a white man composed of flesh, bones and somehow breathes oxygen where ever the hell he's supposed to reside. The tip off that your doctrine is from the Devil is that in your defense, you come up with those three questions that he asked Eve. The idea is to first question what one believes then ask another to plant the seed of doubt. Finally there is the sales hook of ,”We have something you need”. And it’s a false promise (Genesis 3:1-4)
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SDpianomom
faith, values, truth, logic
10:33 AM on 09/04/2012
The Mormon prophets and apostles lead by revelation and prayer. They are never going to apologize for receiving or not receiving certain revelation. That would be apologizing for the Lord and His timing. Mormon leaders believe there was a reason the revelation for black men to participate in the priesthood came in 1978 and a reason they were previously denied that privilege. There are many theories floating around but church apostles claim they don't know the reason for the Lord's timing in this matter.
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xxixpines
Truth often causes wailing and gnashing of teeth
03:01 PM on 09/04/2012
Easy they spell revelation

M O N E Y .
09:12 PM on 09/04/2012
Anyone who has actually lived in Utah and met the top leaders of the LDS Church knows that almost all of them could be making a LOT more income in the professioons they gave up thahn they do now in Church leadership. They include (a) a world-renowned heart surgeon, (b) a former Utah Supreme Court justice and university president, and former head of PBS, (c) VP for Operations of Lufthansa, (d) several other university presidents with PhDs from Stanford, Yale and Harvard, (e) a nuclear engineer, (f) several attorneys from leading law firms, where the partner income was over $300,000 a year. They only were called to full time positions after years of serving as unpaid leaders locally, with no promise of future church careers.