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Sean Kay

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From Ireland to Greece: Tragedy and Renewal in the Eurozone Crisis

Posted: 07/06/2012 7:59 pm

The past several years, I have engaged intensively in research and writing on post-Celtic Tiger Ireland. One thing I frequently hear in Dublin is -- "well, at least we're not Greece." So, after three trips to Ireland in the last half year, I jumped at a chance to visit Greece after the recent elections. What I found is that the two nations have more in common than either would like to admit.

In terms of data (via Eurostat), Ireland is marginally better off -- illustrated by some minor but important recent steps towards market financing of its debt and an increase in American investment over the last year. Yet both are not near the bottoming out of their crisis. Greece, for example, owed at the end of 2011 approximately 165 percent debt relative to its gross domestic product -- Ireland was at about 108 percent. This is better for Ireland, but if Greece were not in the Eurozone, Ireland would only be surpassed by Italy as Europe's worst. In terms of annual deficit, Ireland entered 2012 worse than Greece - with about an annual deficit of about 13 percent of gross domestic product and Greece at about 9 percent. Greece, on the other hand is deeply mired in depression -- with gross domestic projected to decline by at least 5 percent and projected Irish growth just under 1 percent positive for 2012. In Ireland, however, one has to discount for multinational corporations which pay insufficient tax into the economy and produce few new jobs to sufficiently affect indigenous economic growth. Greece's unemployment is over 20 percent -- while Ireland's has now hit 15 percent. Ireland's would be higher were it not bleeding its talent via emigration. This is particularly evident in youth unemployment (under age 25) which in Greece is over 50 percent, but in Ireland around 30 percent.

Ireland and Greece are mired in the midst of major international bailouts of their economies which are based on unsustainable economic and political assumptions. In both countries, if you are a public sector employee you are being paid with money borrowed from other countries -- mainly Germany. Both countries are caught in enforced austerity via these bailouts. On the other hand, both would have to make massive public sector cuts anyway as their finances had run far behind their social ambitions. Neither have realistic alternatives.

Ireland and Greece have gone through recent national votes and reaffirmed their commitment to the Eurozone - while revealing significant political shifts. Ireland voted to approve its ability to draw on future European stability mechanism capital -- a clear reflection that the people there understand that a second bailout is likely after 2013. The Greek vote also was an investment in stability and achieved a new centrist coalition government. But neither could be read as an affirmation of support for the status quo. In Ireland, the second most popular party in the country is nationalist Sinn Féin and in Greece a new grouping of leftist parties -- called Syriza -- nearly won. Both parties are drawing support in a growing anti-European Union and anti-austerity mood -- though few people in either country want to bolt the Eurozone. Neither party has a realistic plan for governance, but in opposition, they need only to play off people's emotions and fears for political advantage.

Had Ireland and Greece voted differently, both countries would have confronted likely bank runs, capital flight, foreign direct investment concerns, and even shortages of basic supplies -- likely leading to a deep decline far beyond that experienced to date. Ireland might have fared better given their capacity to export and their proximity to the British Pound, but it would have been a catastrophic outcome regardless. Tragically, the main purpose of the bailouts has not been to save these economies, but rather contain them from spreading further economic chaos. Once the Eurozone crisis hit Italy in fall 2011, both Ireland and Greece lost their remaining leverage to drive a hard bargain on better bailout terms -- now both must wait to see if comprehensive European solutions will work.

What struck me most in talking to people in Athens and other parts of Greece was how common the refrains were from my visits to Ireland. People in both countries want the world to know the pain they are feeling. They want the world to know that they understand that they have to pay for years of excess -- but they desperately need relief and a sense of a future. Neither country, in particular, has a sustained sense of advocacy for the youth among the political class - which risks the good faith of generations with nothing to do with the crisis but who are suffering the most from it. Sitting at café's in the Plaka in Athens it was hard not to notice the lack of tourists and the steady flow of local Greeks, out for a stroll, but not spending money. This I frequently see in Ireland as well -- though tourism has rebounded there while it is down by about 15 percent in Greece. In either case, tourism will not offset the fact that consumer spending in both countries has fallen dramatically. Only indigenous growth will solve the economic crises.

Both Ireland and Greece offer the world extraordinary human capital, which is being wasted via austerity without simultaneous targeted investments for the future. No doubt, too, both countries face even harder choices in the coming months. In Ireland, another round of deep budget cuts will force a reexamination of a compact on public sector employment and benefits and put major strains on the governing coalition with a large junior partner Labour Party. In Greece, the government must make massive cuts in the public sector to qualify for further bailout payments - including shedding an additional 150,000 people from the public sector workforce by 2015. Without those bailouts, the government will run out of money and the threat of chaos would return.

The people of Ireland and Greece, who did not cause these situations, need relief. Germany and other lender states will only get paid back if these economies have room for growth. This means they need to be able to use the bailout funds flexibly and they need major infrastructure projects that put people to work and stimulate future business investment. Most importantly, they need more time -- a lot more time -- to meet the terms of the bailouts regarding both cuts and interest rates. While I cannot say what that would mean for Greece, in the case of Ireland it means they need their bailout terms to extend over 30 years and likely at a 2 percent interest rate.

At the end of the day, what the people of Ireland and Greece deserve is a sense of dignity and respect for each nation's contribution to the world -- history, culture, tradition, innovation, and a deep commitment to democracy. The people in both countries understand they will not see prosperity for generations. Instead they are relearning that pure materialism does not necessarily bring real wealth and that growth is vital, but sustained growth is more important than the quick win or fudged balance sheets. Hopefully, Germany will realize that it cannot, having achieved positive vote outcomes in Ireland and Greece, now put these countries to the back burner.

Finally, now is the time to visit Ireland and Greece! The deals are great, the people extremely welcoming. I had multiple hotel managers say to me in Greece that people had cancelled reservations in advance of their vote last month for fear of riots. This is absurd. Go to Ireland and see the origins of the great literature and music of the world -- and the most beautiful scenery you will ever see. Go to Greece and see the Acropolis, Delphi, or take in an island and swim the Mediterranean Sea. You will be greeted with open arms and you will experience real riches offered by two of the great civilizations the world has known. Hopefully, as more people do that, the world will also realize that it is time to rethink the balance of austerity to include investment in the rich tapestry of people that Ireland and Greece have to offer.

 
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The past several years, I have engaged intensively in research and writing on post-Celtic Tiger Ireland. One thing I frequently hear in Dublin is -- "well, at least we're not Greece." So, after thre...
The past several years, I have engaged intensively in research and writing on post-Celtic Tiger Ireland. One thing I frequently hear in Dublin is -- "well, at least we're not Greece." So, after thre...
 
 
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12:38 AM on 07/11/2012
"The Greek vote also was an investment in stability and achieved a new centrist coalition government."

And what stability. In less than a month there's already been three resignations, the latest directly as a result of the government's decision to renege on its #1 campaign promise (renegotiation of the harsh austerity terms.). It is also sadly ironic that the world celebrated the victory of this "centrist" coalition government, which consists of the two parties that fostered the overspending and corruption of the past 40 years.

"Though few people in either country want to bolt the Eurozone."

In Greece, at least, the more nuanced polls show that much of the support for remaining within the Eurozone only comes if the terms of staying are favorable for Greece...otherwise, most people support a departure.

"Had Ireland and Greece voted differently, both countries would have confronted likely bank runs, capital flight, foreign direct investment concerns, and even shortages of basic supplies."

Exactly the rhetoric used by New Democracy, PASOK, and foreign politicians and media outlets, in order to terrorize the public prior to the elections.
12:37 AM on 07/11/2012
I would like to commend you for visiting Greece and for encouraging your readers to do the same. However, I do have to take issue with a few of the statements you made.

"If you are a public sector employee you are being paid with money borrowed from other countries -- mainly Germany."

If you read the actual memorandum Greece signed, it is explicitly stated that the money Greece is receiving is not to go towards salaries or pensions, but only the repayment of the debt. This is one of the many myths that has been propagated about the so-called "bailout."

"Neither have realistic alternatives."

No one disagrees that reforms weren't necessary, but it is completely wrong to say that there were no realistic alternatives to the crippling austerity measures that have been implemented in Greece and elsewhere, and which are failing. Cutting salaries and pensions and reducing the minimum wage and firing tens of thousands of people while raising taxes only accomplishes one thing well: killing spending and the economy while driving thousands if not millions to poverty.

"Ireland and Greece have gone through recent national votes and reaffirmed their commitment to the Eurozone"

The two major parties in Greece, even after the second vote, are still polling a combined 41%. Hardly a commitment to the Eurozone.
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spriddler
01:39 PM on 07/09/2012
What is very different about these two countries are the causes of their respective debt crises. Ireland's debt is so high because it assumed the debt of its hobbled banks who were suffering from an over heated real estate crisis. Their debt crisis is situational and not systemic, and is very similar to what is going on in Spain (except Spain wants the EU to bail its banks out). Greece on the other hand entered their crisis because they simply have spent too much for too long while allowing their economy to become less and less productive. Greece's problem is a systemic one requiring major, long-term economic reforms before there can be any hope for a sustainable recovery.
08:58 PM on 07/08/2012
Iceland is the solution instead we have FAS 157 Mark To Fantasy government enabled Fraud and lack of Prosecution of Financial Fraud. Can kicking and socialization of TBTF Bank losses.

Corzine is the poster boy stealing cash from 40,000+ customer segregated accounts last year and still not charged with a crime.everything else is can kicking.
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Sam Bark
It's a MAD world after all...
02:27 AM on 07/09/2012
castlemike - Corzine had friends in the right places..... while Lehman Bros did not....c'est la vie.
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rtx47
07:39 PM on 07/08/2012
We can cut our way out of excessive govt spending without socially impacting people. A two-earner family is a model created by economists aimed to enslave masses to be a consumer of corporate production.

Specific govt steps to reduce its budget

Cut military spending across EU.

Means Test the payment for the equivalent of Social Security; tying those payments to the earnings of the recipients and all their children.

The primary responsibility to care for the elderly the world over has always been and should be their children directly; rather than via the govt bureaucracy (aka taxes).
08:54 AM on 07/09/2012
So what if one never has kids? Some people need help...not total support, but help.
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Michael D Ballantine
Texas Justice Party - Chairperson
02:49 PM on 07/08/2012
Let's put things into perspective. The Irish economy is fairly small and the total debt is more easily managed. Contrast that with the US debt which is nearly 100% of GDP and no one is even remotely serious about tackling this problem because it would mean tax increases. As much as the Republicans shed crocodile tears over the deficit, none of them are proposing the draconian cuts necessary to bring the budget into balance. Fiscal austerity is a joke, it neither grows the economy, nor does it solve the problems these countries face. Ireland and Greece cannot solve their problems by taking on debt and cutting spending, they need to create jobs. They can only do that if they have competitive avantages, that means exiting the Euro.

If you want economic Justice, you need to elect someone outside the box, Rocky Anderson.
10:41 AM on 07/08/2012
Sam- The small matter of US law not applicable in Ireland and Greece puts your advice in the proper context.

Blaming the victims does not absolve the criminals. More PR. Funny how repetition is sufficient to influence some people though.
HansB
The only good certainty is a dead certainty
04:59 AM on 07/08/2012
A workaholic French wine grower I often work for said this about Greece, Spain and Southern Italy: "These people used to work just enough to get by. If they earned enough to eat, it'd be siesta time from then on. There's nothing wrong with that. Then with the euro they suddenly had access to cheap credit. They took it, knowing full well they'd have to work harder in future. Then the crisis came, there were no jobs, and they can't work harder even if they want to. So they've been suckered into debts they will never be able to repay."
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RJII
Self Sustainability is the Future
10:12 PM on 07/08/2012
Your post points to a lot of truths about how folks lost sight and control of the quality of life. And for what?
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Sam Bark
It's a MAD world after all...
01:49 AM on 07/08/2012
You forgot another common trait - living beyond their means..... there ain't free lunch dude.
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AllShookUp
Hug A Hater
01:38 PM on 07/09/2012
There is in corporate America and Wall Street.
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Sam Bark
It's a MAD world after all...
01:25 AM on 07/11/2012
allshookup - you read too much marxist books or listen to nObama fairytales..... corporate America puts the food on your table, the car you drive, the gas you use and the hospitals that attend to your health problems....while government suck the life out of your earnings (assuming you work for a corporation and not for gevernment...hehehe) and tax all your activites and steps in life...Giving you nothing in return.
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joebaggadonuts
Civilization: Evolutionary pathway of choice.
01:47 AM on 07/08/2012
According to Michael Lewis' Boomerang, the Irish pay their taxes and the Greeks don't pay theirs. They are both suffering but their solutions are likely different. http://www.amazon.com/Boomerang-Travels-Center-Platinum-Nonfiction/dp/1611732522
HansB
The only good certainty is a dead certainty
04:31 AM on 07/08/2012
The Irish pay their taxes, but those are very low. Unlike Greece, Ireland enjoyed a boom by poaching business headquarters away from other countries. The actual production was not however done in Ireland, and that's why unemployment is so high.

The Greeks are accused by popular opinion of living beyond their means. The Irish are accused of the same thing, but not by popular opinion: it is politicians who have long seethed at what they considered predatory behavior. If a company headquarters in Ireland rather than France or Germany - never mind that its actual production will still be in those countries - it will pay much less corporate tax. That's good for Ireland - it gets 12.5 cents on the profit dollar. It's bad for other countries - they lose 33 cents on the profit dollar. Total loss for public coffers: 20%.

That's why I don't expect Ireland to be bailed out like Greece was. I just don't see France or Germany first suffering lower tax revenue because of Irish policies, and then using that lower revenue to bail out the very country responsible.

I really like the Irish, by the way. I was there on holiday last summer. But even in these crisis years, the ostentatious wealth was everywhere - I just didn't see many peope actually earn it.
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joebaggadonuts
Civilization: Evolutionary pathway of choice.
10:44 AM on 07/08/2012
Nation-states are losing the battle to corporations it seems. I find it hard to believe that people really will benefit from that trend.
07:37 PM on 07/08/2012
You forgot to include that due to the system of collecting tax in Ireland, more revenue is collected here than in Germany or France (tax collecting systems are much more complex). Also, while income tax is low there is a host of stealth taxes on top of that. Services such as oil, gas etc are higher here than elsewhere in Europe, VAT is paid on that as is a carbon tax.
As for the 12.5% Corporation tax, how do you suggest we get companies to base in Ireland? If our CT is increased, the companies will leave so what do we do then? I look forward to your reply. The ECB stood over the low inflation rate that inflamed the property markets in Ireland and Spain because Germany feared higher inflation would affect their exports and raise their cost of living, forcing wages increases.
German and French banks invested in Ireland's property markets and the Irish people have had to payback those non-Irish investors higher returns than were due to them because Germany, ECB and France did not want to have to do it. Ireland's citizens have paid back billions of euro to bondholders in the last 4 yrs at considerable expense to ourselves.
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jeffrey678
You don't happen to make it. You make it happen.
03:11 PM on 07/07/2012
ICELAND ! Speculators destroy Iceland's banks and expected the taxpayers to foot the bill. Iceland said NO. Now their economy is recovering early.

"But during the crisis, the country did many things different from its European counterparts. It let its three largest banks fail, instead of bailing them out. It ensured that domestic depositors got their money back and gave debt relief to struggling homeowners and to businesses facing bankruptcy.
Employers said that instead of having to lay off workers, they were in some cases having trouble finding people to hire.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/world/europe/icelands-economy-is-mending-amid-europes-malaise.html?pagewanted=all
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VPerry24
Carpe Diem!
02:06 PM on 07/07/2012
Where is Goldman Sachs who tumbled these countries into the mess? Now France is in trouble, notice, Sarkozy was put in office over who the people wanted, Segolene Royal. Now Sarkozy is under investigation with the L'Oreal millions, he left a mess to this new president, so he can be blamed, just like GWB did to Obama. Now with the EU down to $ 1.23 one would think the USA pushed all of it just so the Euro would have the same value as the Dollar. Sinister power at work.
HansB
The only good certainty is a dead certainty
04:44 AM on 07/08/2012
In defense of Sarkozy - whom I deeply detest - he was elected fair and square. He also reacted adequately when the economic crisis broke, using Keynesian stimulus targeted especially largely at the poor (this was when he introduced the RSA to replace the RMI, thus allowing low-income workers to get as much or more as people who didn't work at all). That debt rose during this period is normal. However he did aggravate public finances with unnecessary give-aways, and more especially appeared to have Germany's interests more at heart than those of France - not to mention those of other Mediterrannean countries.

He was a bad president, but let's not pile on.
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VPerry24
Carpe Diem!
11:31 AM on 07/08/2012
Sarkosy got in office just like Nieto/Calderon in Mexico. We have to ensure that the drug wars go on. Check out the CIA Timelineb on how much we spend to influence elections around the globe.
12:53 PM on 07/07/2012
This article should have begun with the debt to GDP ratio, showing the percentage increase caused by handing bankers taxpayer billions.

Lamenting excessive spending while ignoring what the money was actually spent on (hint- it wasn't the people) only reinforces the bankers PR that all are responsible for their actions.

Bank runs and foreign investment and bears, oh my!
Claiming to know that things would have been worse without the bailouts of banks is not a substantiated fact.

It is opinion that ignores the opportunity costs of the bailouts.
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Sam Bark
It's a MAD world after all...
01:57 AM on 07/08/2012
altohone - please not another economic challenged comment.....

Bankers are just the middlemen - the government set up the policy and they deliver it in form of loans to people the government coerce them to give without the means to repay back..... Yep, go and read the Redevelopment Act of Carter's which was renewed by Clinton in 96, which led to the real state bubble by greedy bankers and greedier wannabe home-buyers....
09:14 PM on 07/08/2012
Come on. Let's play for nice. So the banks walked away with billions, stuffed it into their own pockets, took luxury vacations and lived the high life while not helping in our economic recovery. Isn't that what banks can do? Only problem was when they lined up and asked, "you got any more?" First time around was so easy even a two year old baby could have gotten away with it.

It is a known fact that some of these countries have a higher percent of takers than givers (providers). Gotta hit that pub every night for a pint. But, WAIT. Somebody is going to have to pay for all the free stuff.

Germany? No way, Jose. They are survivors and thrifty. Why should they pay for the lagabouts who only crawl off their sofas come dark? I am like many older Americans working still at 71. How much longer can I continue as I am no longer a young chickadee?

Maybe we can be like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz where everybody is happy as a lark. Still there is that sticky wicket of who is going to be paying for all the free stuff. If you have an answer, pray tell me cause I believe I have the right to know.
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Patomalo
09:34 AM on 07/07/2012
How about solutions for Ireland?... Can taxes to corporations increase at this time... Or continue the track that lead them to the current situation
04:15 AM on 07/09/2012
If CT increases the big employers in Ireland will leave, then what do we do? Mass unemployment and no revenues. Very bright idea indeed.
07:27 AM on 07/07/2012
Both countries are stunning. I'd take a trip again to Ireland though.