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New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 05:00:07 in Home
“The city threw out the test because they perceived it to be indefensible, not because people complained.”
ghee99 replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 05:10:08
“people at large didnt complain, but the firefighters who scored lower complained, and threatened to sue,.... the city didnt want the cost of a trial, so they settled and gave the less qualified firefighters who complained promotions over the higher scoring firefighters.
so, the lower scoring firefighters, complained first,
so i was just saying the lower scoring fire fighters were the ones being babyish
sorry if i wasnt clear on that, i didnt mean there was a rising among the populace at large against the test,
i would imagine, the populace at large would agree with the policy of letting the higher scoring firefighters get promoted over the lower scoring ones.
anyway, once again, sorry if i was not clear”
so, the lower scoring firefighters, complained first,
so i was just saying the lower scoring fire fighters were the ones being babyish
sorry if i wasnt clear on that, i didnt mean there was a rising among the populace at large against the test,
i would imagine, the populace at large would agree with the policy of letting the higher scoring firefighters get promoted over the lower scoring ones.
anyway, once again, sorry if i was not clear”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 04:55:27 in Home
“If you have no power and you are prejudice, the good news is you are not empowered to hurt others with your bias.”
ghee99 replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 06:02:29
“ok,
but, at least here in america, there is no group i know of that does not have power in some, or many areas,
so all groups can hurt others, should they be biased, and inclined to do so.
all groups have prejudiced members in it, and all groups have members who can hurt others
point being, its almost too obvious to say, but how about we as a society become colorblind, and don't as a society be biased towards any group.
made sense to MLK, makes sense to me.”
but, at least here in america, there is no group i know of that does not have power in some, or many areas,
so all groups can hurt others, should they be biased, and inclined to do so.
all groups have prejudiced members in it, and all groups have members who can hurt others
point being, its almost too obvious to say, but how about we as a society become colorblind, and don't as a society be biased towards any group.
made sense to MLK, makes sense to me.”
Moira Cameron: 2 Beefeaters Fired For Bullying Female Colleague At Tower Of London
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 04:03:41 in World
“The men got themselves fired.”
TokyoCalling replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 05:05:59
“Your 100% Correct! When we men start to get our ego's in check then things will run a lot smoother. But as long as you have these good old boy organizations we'll continue to see this kind of problem. Look at the US government especially the republican party - full of good old boys. Dinosaurs - holding everyone back so they can feel important.
And to call her actions against this political correctness is weak and another sign of cowardice.”
And to call her actions against this political correctness is weak and another sign of cowardice.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 04:01:29 in Home
“I would support the position of Justice Gisnburg:
In dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the white firefighters "understandably attract this court's sympathy. But they had no vested right to promotion. Nor have other persons received promotions in preference to them."”
In dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the white firefighters "understandably attract this court's sympathy. But they had no vested right to promotion. Nor have other persons received promotions in preference to them."”
kobrock1 replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 04:19:44
“By wizard Ginsburg's logic, I suppose that a rights violation would only have occurred if those blacks who failed the test had been promoted, rather than the whites who passed it.”
kobrock1 replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 04:16:23
“Whatever construct is necessary to throw common sense out of the window.
A test was carefully created to be impartial. The firefighters were told that promotions would be based upon the results of this test. When blacks didn't perform well, the results were thrown out. For anyone believing in the concept of truth, the white firefighters' rights, in this case, were obviously violated.”
A test was carefully created to be impartial. The firefighters were told that promotions would be based upon the results of this test. When blacks didn't perform well, the results were thrown out. For anyone believing in the concept of truth, the white firefighters' rights, in this case, were obviously violated.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 03:43:21 in Home
“From the lower court, yes, I would have expected the same ruling.
I hope we do see a case where the community is predominantly white and minorities control the fire department even if they abuse the power of their position to advance the careers of their cronies.”
I hope we do see a case where the community is predominantly white and minorities control the fire department even if they abuse the power of their position to advance the careers of their cronies.”
kobrock1 replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 04:07:00
“Geez, you're such an enigma. Generally, from someone's posts, I can determine where they stand, but in you, I can only discern an unparalleled impartiality.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 03:24:23 in Home
“Like you...”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 03:24:06 in Home
“Nope. Justice for all.
I don't think their rights were violated though.”
I don't think their rights were violated though.”
kobrock1 replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 03:38:12
“No, their rights weren't violated. And similarly, had the city thrown out the tests because only blacks would have been promoted, that wouldn't have raised any eyebrows either.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 03:15:26 in Home
“John Cockreham's assertion has nothing to do with liberalism.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 03:14:47 in Home
“No. Everyone should have an equal and fair opportunity of advancing based on merit.”
rbchilds replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 07:02:09
“Merit and test scores.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 03:12:32 in Home
“In the lower court ruling minorities nor majorities were considered.
The question before the court was "Did the city act within the scope of their authority under the law when they threw out the test?" And the answer was "Yes": because they did.
In this case they are saying that civil rights were violates which seems to be another legal question entirely.”
The question before the court was "Did the city act within the scope of their authority under the law when they threw out the test?" And the answer was "Yes": because they did.
In this case they are saying that civil rights were violates which seems to be another legal question entirely.”
kobrock1 replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 03:33:46
“I suppose then, that you would have anticipated a similar ruling, had the plaintiffs been black?”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 03:08:10 in Home
“By the way, there was a totally subjective oral leadership test section administered by the white male fire department leadership in this case.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 03:05:50 in Home
“Yes, it was a rather cynical nomination by G HW B. I would agree, he is unqualified as is John Roberts.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 02:47:28 in Home
“Quite so that the Supreme Court is "activist" in this case. Don't know what to make of it.
As I recall there was some discussion of re-testing in a controlled environment and they refused to retest, correct?”
As I recall there was some discussion of re-testing in a controlled environment and they refused to retest, correct?”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 02:40:01 in Home
“"Standardized test are objective" would that that were true!”
Moira Cameron: 2 Beefeaters Fired For Bullying Female Colleague At Tower Of London
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 02:22:58 in World
“Service members cannot sue.”
Moira Cameron: 2 Beefeaters Fired For Bullying Female Colleague At Tower Of London
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 02:21:38 in World
“So far what they've been "protected" from is good jobs.”
Moira Cameron: 2 Beefeaters Fired For Bullying Female Colleague At Tower Of London
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 02:19:49 in World
“Being well mannered is not "politically correct" or feminine.
No one is offended by consideration.
Bullying is not "acting like a man" it is acting like a bully, a jerk.
Two have already been dismissed, so much for not making it to court.
Don't see the dictionary defining "bully" as "male"
2 a : a blustering browbeating person; especially : one habitually cruel to others who are weaker”
No one is offended by consideration.
Bullying is not "acting like a man" it is acting like a bully, a jerk.
Two have already been dismissed, so much for not making it to court.
Don't see the dictionary defining "bully" as "male"
2 a : a blustering browbeating person; especially : one habitually cruel to others who are weaker”
Moira Cameron: 2 Beefeaters Fired For Bullying Female Colleague At Tower Of London
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 02:13:58 in World
“The distinction between combat and non-combat roles on the modern battlefield is rather arbitrary.
And BTW, being in a non-combat role does not protect you from dying, just often prevents you from having a fighting chance at living. So much for being "protected."
Actually, the US Pentagon does have plans to draft women into service and many would be surprised to learn their names are already on lists. I would not be surprised to learn the UK has similar plans.
Yes, no longer a reason to make a distinction.”
And BTW, being in a non-combat role does not protect you from dying, just often prevents you from having a fighting chance at living. So much for being "protected."
Actually, the US Pentagon does have plans to draft women into service and many would be surprised to learn their names are already on lists. I would not be surprised to learn the UK has similar plans.
Yes, no longer a reason to make a distinction.”
deluk replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 07:58:32
“British women already do, something which surprised the American grunts in Iraq.”
Moira Cameron: 2 Beefeaters Fired For Bullying Female Colleague At Tower Of London
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 02:10:28 in World
“This is about the UK, not the US.”
TheBaffler replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 06:42:28
“I think you need to reread his post.”
Moira Cameron: 2 Beefeaters Fired For Bullying Female Colleague At Tower Of London
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 02:09:47 in World
“"NO-ONE should be bullied on the job." Exactly.”
guajiro replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 08:10:18
“In this case it appears the "bullying" was the crime of not talking to her. Since when should it be a crime to not talk to someone? The nasty notes and damage done to her uniform by the two men deserved discipline for that kind of behavior but it hardly warrants the termination of their jobs after 30 years of service. The third man who messed with the Wikipedia entry describing her history will likely be reprimanded but allowed to keep his job, a more fitting punishment. As a visitor to the Tower said: "There's always teasing in the army", said Miles Gurrin, a frequent visitor.
http://news.aol.com/article/moira-cameron-says-tower-of-london/747069”
http://news.aol.com/article/moira-cameron-says-tower-of-london/747069”
Moira Cameron: 2 Beefeaters Fired For Bullying Female Colleague At Tower Of London
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 02:08:58 in World
“Women should be free to be just as human and flawed as their male colleagues. Evidently the men here have not set the bar too high.”
Lee Luttrell replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 03:46:32
“We obviously have an apologist for the women here. She got two guys fired and tried for three. She got the job out of political correctness to begin with. Can't have an all male institution regardless how many centuries it has existed. This is social engineering. We are going to integrate the work force regardless of competence. There was no such thing as a hostile work enviroment until women entered it. This may work in the corporate world but in the real world there are very few women who can do labor intensive jobs that have a high risk factor. But we don't care as long as we have a women on the job.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 01:52:51 in Home
“It is alarmingly easy to rig tests.
You make the white guys in the department administer the tests, you give the questions and answers to the white guys and not to the women and minorities, you give the white guys tutoring and time off to study, and you make the women and minorities cover their shifts, you give the white guys the day off before the test, you make the women and minorities work a double shift, you don't give the physical portion of the test because you are afraid some of the minorities may be physically stronger than the white guys who are not in good shape, you select a test that has been widely criticized for cultural bias....
Not really that hard to rig a test if you are in control and determined!”
You make the white guys in the department administer the tests, you give the questions and answers to the white guys and not to the women and minorities, you give the white guys tutoring and time off to study, and you make the women and minorities cover their shifts, you give the white guys the day off before the test, you make the women and minorities work a double shift, you don't give the physical portion of the test because you are afraid some of the minorities may be physically stronger than the white guys who are not in good shape, you select a test that has been widely criticized for cultural bias....
Not really that hard to rig a test if you are in control and determined!”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 01:36:23 in Home
“It is just like in music, either you can play a piece or you cannot. Should be pretty straight forward right?
"In studying personnel from 11 major orchestras, Harvard economist Claudia Goldin and Princeton’s Cecelia Rouse found that 29% of females and 20% of males advanced to the final round in BLIND auditions.
When auditions were not blind, only 19% of women advanced compared to 23% of men." *
So, 10% of well qualified women LOSE OUT if they can be seen to be female, has nothing whatever to do with qualifications and everything to do with bias.
* http://blog.womenforhire.com/2009/03/could-you-imagine-blind-interv.html”
"In studying personnel from 11 major orchestras, Harvard economist Claudia Goldin and Princeton’s Cecelia Rouse found that 29% of females and 20% of males advanced to the final round in BLIND auditions.
When auditions were not blind, only 19% of women advanced compared to 23% of men." *
So, 10% of well qualified women LOSE OUT if they can be seen to be female, has nothing whatever to do with qualifications and everything to do with bias.
* http://blog.womenforhire.com/2009/03/could-you-imagine-blind-interv.html”
USAFVET76 replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 08:50:30
“In Muslim nations women were'tn allowed to take the test. And those that tried were blindfolded and shot.”
PSUguy001 replied on Nov 26, 2009 at 02:14:15
“Music auctions are subjective, they are based on individual interpretations of tone, intonation, phrasing, etc…Standardized test are objective, you are either right or wrong.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 01:28:11 in Home
“And your experience as a minority employee is?
Your expertise in testing is?
I don't have to have an axe to grind to see a miscarriage of justice.”
Your expertise in testing is?
I don't have to have an axe to grind to see a miscarriage of justice.”
New Haven's White Firefighters Win Promotions
Commented Nov 26, 2009 at 01:26:19 in Home
“No. It was just in the Fire Department dominated by white males.
city recognized the test results were invalid and threw them out as was their perfect legal right to do with or without any reason.”
city recognized the test results were invalid and threw them out as was their perfect legal right to do with or without any reason.”
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