“I wasn't bashing Turkey you know. But I would like to correct your arguments. France is far from being out of Africa.
France gives, and I say "gives", not loans 3 billion euros to African countries each year. But this number has to be doubled - because of the French participation in the European funds for development and its overseas departments which act on their own. 160 000 young Africans go to school in French public schools and 400 Alliances françaises teach French freely to those willing to learn it.
Economically, France has a billateral treaty with each and every country in Africa. Remember it is part of the EU.
France: $2.16 trillion (the sun)
Turkey: $958.3 billion (the moon)
There were 60 million French in 2000, there are 65 million now, technically, it is called a growth, not a decline.
There is a French presence in North and South America because there are French territories - French Guyana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, St-Martin, St-Pierre and Miquelon - all in all, 1 million French live in North and South America on French territory.
There are also French troops in Djibouti, Chad, Ivory Coast, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Mayotte, Reunion, Tahiti, New Caledonia. Camerun, Togo, Central Africa, Senegal, Gabon and the Comoros officially signed a treaty of mutual assistance. And the nuke argument is relevant as a French missile can hit any target around the globe thanks to its fleet of nuclear submarines unlike Pakistan or North Korea.”
“You cannot compare the two really. Turkey plays a key regional role, France is a global actor (Nuclear power, military presence on the 5 continents, 2nd diplomatic force, the francophonie network...). France has the most dynamic demography among the western countries, its population is still growing. It's not the case for UK or Germany.
If you want to compare the two ok, France is a declining Sun whereas Turkey is a growing Moon.”
Levo on Apr 12, 2011 at 16:44:21
“France with her ageing and declining population (not growing) coupled with her stagnant economy is no match for the young dynamic Turkey; the brightest sun with the World's 15th Largest Economy!
Turkey currently ranks right after Canada in terms of GDP and France's "nuclear power" does not make her any bigger a World Power than Pakistan or N.Korea. Therefore the nuke argument is irrelevant.
As for International Presence and Clout the Economic Powerhouse Turkey outclasses France as the latter cannot even get a foot in the door with the Central Asian ex-Turkic Republics as well as the Middle East where France's latest attempt to act as a mediator between Syria and Israel was flatly rejected by Syria. In a nutshell the ME and the Central Asian Republics are out for France.
Turkey having established strong bileteral trade pacts with major African nations once again leave the much resented ex-colonial power France out with Africa. As for the Americas the North American Free Trade Agreement (i.e NAFTA) shuts France out of that part of the World and prospects for French companies in S. America do not look good at all as once again Turkey has excellent relations with Turkish Multinational firms are already making billions all over from the ME to Russia to Central Asia to Pakistan and France does not have what it takes to compete against the resurgent Turkey!
In regards to "French Presence" had you meany Patagonia or Iceland?”
Diren Yardimli on Apr 12, 2011 at 15:18:20
“A declining sun.... that's a magnified portrait of France. Even TV5 has given up on French lately and switched over to English broadcasting lately. That should help to explain where the once-mighty French culture is headed. Whereas Turkish TV channels and TV series (and in Turkish) are watched in most of southern Europe, the Arabic peninsula and the Turkic states.”
“I agree, what you say is more or less true. But Britain is a small neocolonial power, guess who the biggest is ? You don't have a clue ? Well you're talking about banana, well ask the banana workers in Central America.
“Bill Clinton brokered a deal to give 5% of Jamaica's Banana production to Dole and Chiquita. Post-Colonial rule, the UK left 5% Banana production for agricultural export and local sales. This amount of trade was supposed to be restitution to the Jamaican growers. They USA, Dole, and Chiquita had a take-over conference and demanding to monopoly the last 5% of all Banana production. The UK caved in to these demands and left Jamaica in economic ruin and opened the gates for devaluing their $. Hence, the tourist industry promoted this country as a cheap vacation. However the majority of the people live in utter poverty as a result of the tax-free 'Free-Trade Zones. Also, all of Jamaica's agriculture was hijacked by outside forces. Most of all, there is major agricultural imports now. Jamaica does not produce it own products due to the major corporations putting them out of business with imports and production restrictions. It is crazy.”
“You are almost right, but France has already been evicted from most of Africa. And what do we see ? What comes next is not democracy.
Look at Rwanda and Congo for instance. The "secret war" between allies i.e. France vs USA-UK-Israel has cost millions of lives, not a single one being French or US by the way. But let me ask: are the US backed Kabila and Kagame greater humanists than the former French puppets Mobutu and Habyarimana ? Were all the massacres it took to put them in power worth it ? Why is it so vital not to talk about the role Kagame had during the 1996-97 Hutu massacres in Congo ?
This last question reminds me of a story I heard from a direct whitness. A French officer reported mass slaughter of Hutu refugees in that area and asked his superiors permission to intervene. It was denied with roughly these words "you can't, there are US instructors there".
Africa still has a long way to go, the French influence is dead or almost, hail to the US/Chinese grand jeu. The game has changed, the scale has changed, but the rules are still the same: plunder and murder. Kicking out French soldiers is good, but it's merely a start, there are other butts to kick.”
“It's a good thing all the French poilus - or British tommies - of Verdun or Le Chemin des Dames are now dead and burried. I am sure it would have hurt their feelings to hear that not only they lost that war, but also that the US won WW I "singlehandedly".”