Sep 3, 2011 at 15:06:08
“Psychology of perception (how our senses trick us) and neuropsychology (how our brain tricks us into patternicity) show that this is not only a problem of language but also that trust on "direct" experience is misleading. It gets even worse if done in a group as group phenomena as “groupthink” (Janis) and pressure for conformity or even mass psychosis have to be taken into account as well. Absolute propositions are not possible as long as we live in a developing and relative world. So we will always have to remain skeptic of what we try to point out, use multiple methods, try to reduce and be aware of the impact of ourselves on what we experience and give the frame in which we make an assumption. If our assumptions are "framed" then they are no statements about an absolute anymore. Furthermore the dozens of integrating approaches to spirituality themselves need clarity. Seldom the teacher, the teaching, the community, the practice, the concrete phenomenology and the staging of practice is being defined. Whats necessary: 1) The leaders have to develop a more moderate self-conception (maybe Genpo Merzel is on the way), 2) they have to tell this to the people they attract, 3) they have to publicly comply to standards in the field of psycho-social professions and define what they do in form of a negotiated agreement, 4) they have to refrain from traditional and misleading nomenclature as e.g. "enlightened" (here the term” wise” might be more helpful).”
Saijanai on Sep 4, 2011 at 12:58:16
“"Enlightened" has a specific meaning in TM Speak. DId you miss the memo?”
Sep 3, 2011 at 14:58:05
“Developmental psychology and neuropsychology can help better understand unusual experiences people interpret in their mindsets which derive from the spiritual contexts their culture offers often. The culturally dependent specific forms these interpretations take are very different though. Instead of speaking of "one spirituality" we should learn to accept that no form of spirituality equals these experiences and that there are also psychological techniques which address consciousness in a more culture-free way. To try to reduce psychology to a subordinate science till one is able to truly integrate the wisdom of an enlightened person does not help as it sticks to the illusion of enlightened teachers. Your writing "Spiritual understanding comes from a direct perception of a greater intelligence, force or power. Some people call it non-duality; others call it Christ, Allah, spirit or God." seems to commit the “fallacy of the myth of the given” (in Wilber’s words). The psychological self that creates this "myth" in the first place and then interprets the experience cannot be seen as separate from the experienced.”
Dec 3, 2010 at 06:20:10
“"At the end of the day, I ended up with a nice Jewish boy."
All the best to you both (three). Hope the patterns really change. Would be good for you and all the people who rely on you. BTW: Integral is not to far from Zen, and there are a lot of jewish Zen Boys in the integral community as well.
Sometimes what really is needed are two people, who really need to change, not just one.
Maybe the two of you find the right way always in between harmony (oneness) and polarity.
Wonderful that you are that open with all you have to learn about yourself (especially concerning the relative value of spirituality) and have to give to others to learn about themselves too (especially concerning the importance of truthful and psychologically backed-up introspection and respectful relationship).
Maybe this can also help better deal with integral shadows in the community.