“Humans categorize many things. Race, gender, religion. Are you suggesting that simply stating that someone is "female" or "Catholic" that's discrimination?
Discrimination is not categorization. Discrimination is a belief system and treatment of someone based on ideas about everyone in the category, not the category itself.
Discrimination is "judgment" of the entire category, not the category.
"Yes, it is silly to be proud of yourself for something that you had nothing to do with."
So according to you it is "silly" to be a proud "American" as you clearly had nothing to do with where you were born. BTW, being an "American" is a categorization. I guess according to you we should eliminate that too because its "silly"
"You want everyone to appreciate it by dwelling on it as you do."
Since when is discussing something, dwelling on it? If talking about it is dwelling on it then why are you in this forum?
Why does what I (or anyone else) find pride in bother you? Many people define themselves by a multiplicity of things. Race, gender, religion, marital status, nationality, etc. It impacts you (or no one else) in any way.
White privilege is this idea that you can define for others what they should or should not be proud of, what they should discuss and for how long.
It would be better if you stop trying to define for people who they are or what they should be proud of and focus on yourself.”
“They did not post my last reply, not too sure why. Short version, maybe you should review the meaning of the word "vestiges" before suggesting that I stated slavery ended 50 years ago.
And maybe you should review your comments and contributions to the system of racism you suggest hasn't gone away over night and how you contribute to it continuing.
When you stereotype and entire population and suggest that they are in their position because of their own behavior it is no different than saying that a woman is raped because she wore a short skirt.
Maybe the black community votes democratic because the republican party demonizes them. Ever consider that? Why vote for a party who consistently says that you are lazy and want a handout?
But I guess it is just about dependency right? The party need not take personal repsonibility for why it does not get the majority votes of blacks, hispanics, women or gays. Its all their own fault. Right? So much for the party of personal responsibility.
Maybe try a new talking point. That one is a bit tired.”
“It's delusional to believe that separate but equal was codified into our laws through Plesssy vs Ferguson? Or that it took Brown vs Board of Education to integrate schools? Delusional to believe that this had no effect on current generations?
OK. Someone is due a history lesson and its not me.
While you were "marching" in Detroit, who did you think you were marching against if the offending party are "dust beneath out feet"? The murders of Emmitt Till live in Money, Mississippi today. The rapists of Recy Taylor died last year.
We live in a representative government. We the people elected officials who codified discrimination into our laws and now are trying to state that we have nothing to do with it because "we never owned slaves" or "personally discriminated". The laws were a result of the idea that, although no longer slaves, minorities are still not equal to other people and should be treated accrodingly. Thus the laws are the vestiges of slavery and that mindset.
Many people, subsequently, unduly benefitted from a system that prevented others from fully competing.
So through our taxes, paying a resitution is a discussion worth having as it is "we" who benefitted. Not someone else. Whether it comes to fruition or not it should continue to be discussed. Right now, that's all we're doing.
Not sure why people act like restitution means writing a personal check. But "we the people" are culpabale via our elected government who we put into office.”
“The "culpable" party is the US Government and state governments that institutionalized the discrimination into the laws.
It is unreasonable nor is it suggested that specific individuals compensate specific individuals. That's obvious and a straw man argument.
But the government that allowed these problems, and still has some of the laws on the books, just not enforced, is readibly available for both punitive and compensatory justice.
And it would not be the first time the government has made restitution to people or communities for past wrongs.
Entire systems of restitution have been created, and continue to be provided, to Native Americans, for wrongs committed generations prior.
But it only seems like its Black Americans with whom people seem to have continued problems.”
Clownwhisper on Jun 3, 2014 at 17:20:44
“If that is what you believe than you are entitled to your delusion.
The US government has made restitution to the native American natives due to the fact that the US government and armed forces were directly ordered to hunt down and kill these people in the 10s of millions. It was a direct slaughter of an entire race of people ORDERED but the US government.
While the slave trade was no less horrifying, it is, you have to admit a much more convoluted scenario Many if not MOST of the subjects involved were foreign nationals and even foreign governments.
While I was marching in Detroit in civil rights demonstrations I never envisioned a day that I would be subject to sanctions for a crime that I did not commit.
Amd although I agree that there were and as you say still are some horrific laws on the books, you know as well as I do that these laws were put in place at the behest of the oligarchical entities of that time. It is very much like the Koch brothers are doing as we speak.
The offending party are long dust beneath our feet.;And although I am outraged at what the NAZI's did to the jews, I do not think that modern day German youth should be paying direct restitution to Israel either.”
“With skin color comes racial categorizations that for far too long people were divided, dehumanized and disgraced. Now that people have found pride in it, we should just ignore it? You can't skip the last few decades of our history and begin today.
Although you may simply charaterize it as "skin color" it is more than that. Physiological charateristics, skin color, body shape, eye color, height, etc., are all sources of pride for different people.
Someone who is a Hasidic Jew looks definitively different from someone who is not. Although we may be of the same "race" should they not have pride in who they are, their culture, their history, etc.? I would harldy describe racial differences as "petty".
Why should they be deined parts of their heritage, any parts, even their complexion, because of someone else's ignorance?
Racism does not thrive in categorizations. Racism thrives in stereotypes about those categorizations. Eliminate the sterotypes not the categories in which some take pride.
But you are ultimately suggesting that I should deny who I am because of someone else's inability to be non-judgmental. Again, should we deny gender due to sexism? Deny orientation differences due to heterophobia?
The irony about this is that it is still a level of ingrained institutional racism and white privilege.
Why should people of color be expected to deny who they are instead of the majority being expected not to discriminate?”
timequake45 on Jun 6, 2014 at 14:47:56
“Racism is a form of categorization. The fixation on race is in itself a form of discrimination. Yes, there are distinctions beyond just skin color, but that isn't the point. Its all superficial. Are you trying to convince me that the quality of a person is to be determined by such physiological characteristics? Isn't that the very definition of racism? I never stated that these differences are petty, but the fixation upon them was petty.
Yes, it is silly to be proud of yourself for something that you had nothing to do with. You should be proud of yourself for the things which you have achieved. Your issue seems to be more about the fact that you cannot get over what happened in the past. You want everyone to appreciate it by dwelling on it as you do. How long must that happen before you can finally move on?
I never stated that or implied that you should deny who you are. Ask yourself this: Who are you? Do you define yourself by your physiology, or do you define yourself by what you have done and how you think? Would you suggest that the way you think and act is based on your race? That would be a justification for stereotyping, wouldn't it?”
“People never thought the world was round, never thought we could make a vehicle that could fly, never thought we would make it to the moon and never thought a computer would be small enough to fit on a desk let alone in someone's pocket.
But it all starts with a conversation. It will never happen as long as we don't discuss it but it doesn't cost anything to have the discussion.”
Clownwhisper on Jun 3, 2014 at 14:44:38
“Only americans could think that it is acceptable to right a wrong by committing another wrong.”
“Many state governments have the confederate flag as a part of their state flag and the confederate flag was flown for many years on top of state capitals. It's still flown at the state capital grounds in a few Southern states. So maybe we as a "nation" do not celebrate the Confederate flag but we also do not stray from it.
Many Presidential candidates have stated that the issue of the confederate flag should be left to the states and not decided at their level.
The idea of moving beyond race is insulting on two fronts:
1) The US has historically, even in our lifetimes, treated people differently based upon race. Once certain groups began gaining pride in their race, the majority began to push toward "color-blindness". So when it benefitted the majority we discussed race but now that ethnic groups are growing we should be "color blind"?
2) There's nothing wrong with anyone being a particular "color". It's the insistence on associatinig negative things with the color. If our nation viewed minorities in a positive light, rather than holding on to the negative, there would be no need to be "color blind". It is the constant association of being a "minority" with negative issues that has driven the society to suggest that we just "ignore" color.
Should be "ignore" gender too? Why not accept a person as ALL who they are and not try to ignore the parts that one may want to connect to something negative.”
timequake45 on Jun 3, 2014 at 14:35:10
“Why would someone have pride just because of their skin color? One can admire the beauty of one's form without being prideful about it. It is in actions and achievements that one can find their merits, not just because of what they look like. The talk of majority vs minority or White vs. Black has no value. In trying to force everything into categories we would be encouraging false stereotypes, and we would forget the fact that we each should be respected as the individuals we are.
Are we not the same race? Do you find that proposition insulting? Yes, there is some distinction, but then that is true between any two individuals. Should we harp on these differences just because they exist? Pettiness thrives in such thinking. I never inferred that distinctions should be ignored anymore than I would suggest that people pretend not to notice the beautiful colors of someone else's eyes. But I would insist that we made less of an effort to unnecessarily categorize everyone. Its in that where racism thrives.
You might not like any of what I suggested, but it really is the only way for people to move past falsely judging one another. The fact that you feel insulted is understandable to a point. Some people feel that they must have closure and resolution before they can move forward. However, that cannot happen by dwelling on the past.”
“Because I'm a Soldier who is actually in Afghanistan. I would venture to say I know a bit about our supply lines, roads, posts etc.
I am fully aware of supply lines. Supply lines are roads we take to move supplies from Point A to Point B. Secure means they have been swept for mines. Doesn't mean you can walk down the road without gear. They are not guarded or paved and often traveled by the enemy.
So why would anyone ask to travel down a road with potential enemy just to go to the latrine?
So I do't know how much of a "fact" it is that he used a latrine at the other post. That's not what his buddies are reporting. That's not even what the Pentagon is reporting that the got from Taliban messages.
And we don't walk across the street without body armor and a weapon. Even in the far more built up areas than where he was.
Bottom line. He is a Soldier. He was at a FOB. He was captured. So either they came and got him (via an attack on his FOB) or he was out and taken.
Again, why was he out by himself? That's right, he had to use the latrine.”
“It is a claim and credit for gaining "our" independence from the British.
And celebrating the Confederate flag (a flag of over 100 years ago) often comes with discussion of "our" Southern heritage. Again, with little discussion of all aspects of that heritage.
I'm not too sure who "chides" whom for the shame and actions of others. And some of these alleged actions probably need more than a "chiding".
Part of the problem is the idea that people are being asked to "personally" apologize. I don't think that anyone was being asked to personally apologize.
The idea is that the government, via our laws, some of which still exist, should make restitution. Part of this begins with a government apology. Not a personal one.”
timequake45 on Jun 3, 2014 at 11:05:40
“I simply cannot buy into the idea that it is a claim to credit at all. I do not know of anyone who claims to have some responsibility in the colonies breaking away from the British, individually or collectively. I also do not recall where we, as a nation, celebrate the Confederate flag. Some individuals might celebrate some aspect of Southern heritage. It isn't as if they had forgotten that slavery and Jim crow existed, but that is no reason to have to discuss it on every occasion. People do grow weary of having such an issue thrown at them they took no part in.
The government has already apologized. The problem with a financial restitution is the insurmountable impracticality of it. Who is to pay? Congress gets its money from taxes. Who is to receive? Must everyone show that an ancestor was a slave, or does one merely have to be Black to redress the aftermath of slavery? How should the restitution be? Any one of those question contains enough substance to drag it out for decades and still provide no answer. Not to mention the question of whether or not it will actually do any good.
Its confidence, equal treatment of the law and time that is needed. Martin Luther King Jr. had it right when he preached color blindness. We see it when young children of all races play together. We must all move beyond race altogether.”
"Most notably, the survey finds that terrorism is not a monolithic concept–support for terrorist activity depends importantly on its type and on the location in which it occurs."
It does not state that "terrorism would not exist if it didn't have support" and it does not state that there is unilateral support within the muslim community. It explicitly states that it is not even a "monolithic concept." It depends on the type, where and why.
So to suggest it (terrorism) is supported by muslims and is a muslim issue is not what the study says.
Again, the EVIDENCE is in your reading, not in saying a study says something because you say so.
Maybe you need to focus on what you READ and not worry about controlling anything else.”
krivka on Jun 3, 2014 at 16:17:10
“The Koran is clear in its treatment of nonbelievers and apostates. I KNOW that most Muslims just want to live their lives in peace, but, and it is a very BIG BUT, the fundamentalists can rely on the words that all Muslims are required to memorize to make their case when needed. Moderate Islam is Islam in hibernation. II also know many Christians some who are Officers in the Armed Forces who, despite taking their oaths to serve and protect the Constitution, openly claim God is number one in their lives over their country and discriminate by their religious associations also, but nothing like the Muslims. The implacable Koran and its stringent rules leave little to bargain with during a debate. The Bible is just as crazy, but it is more amenable to our Capitalistic ways. Muslims who contribute at Mosque have no idea where their money is going. At Mass the Catholics give money to spread the "word" to the poor in Africa, or to stop abortions, but nobody really knows where the money goes. Stop allowing religious contributions to be tax deductible, tax all religious institutions and their staffs.”
Bob Puharic on Jun 3, 2014 at 09:16:26
“No one ever claimed it was 'monolithic'. I myself noted support for it was a plurality, not a majority. If you want to put words in my mouth, perhaps you should let me know. That why you can do both sides of the discussion.
AND you failed to note the regressive attitudes across much of the Muslim world towards women, non believers, etc.”
Americans love to accept responsibility for the heritage and greatness of our forefathers. We love to celebrate the 4th of July and on occasions, wave the Confederate flag.
But when anyone discusses the horrors and injustices that come along with the struggles for American independence, suddenly no one has a connection to those ancestors. No one has anything to do with it.
We have to be willing to accept the good with the bad to show integrity as a nation.”
gluwman on Jun 3, 2014 at 14:04:31
“I think we have accepted that we are a combination of both. No country has a spotless history. We do accentuate what we deem to value in our holidays.”
Clownwhisper on Jun 3, 2014 at 12:50:44
“This country was founded on murder and exploitation. I have no illusions about that.
I simply thing that it is absurd to make a group of people pay in any way shape or form for acts that were perpetrated by people that they have no connection with.
It would be absurd enough to expect a direct distant ancestor to pay reparations for their ancient relatives actions let alone someone that is in now way remotely connected.
You know the big farming companies (plantations were owned largely by english citizens that stayed loyal to the crown until they could no longer do so. Foreign shipping companies were a gigantic component of the slave trade. The American colonists made up a relatively small percentage of the slave purchases world wide.”
timequake45 on Jun 3, 2014 at 10:15:19
“The 4th of July is a celebration of independence. It is not a claim of credit for what others did. The people of this country do take pride in the good things done by their fellow countrymen, but they also see the shame of of the actions of others and chide them for it. However, that is very different from laying claim to personal responsibility. An apology from those not personally responsible means nothing.”
“Then I'm sure you understand that slavery did not end "350 years ago" as your original posts suggests. Slavery lasted for over 400 years, but ended only 149 years ago.
That slavery was not followed by equality, it was followed by a Jim Crow South that discriminated against people and treated them as less than equal for another 100 years.
So, the vesitges of Slavery ended, maybe, 50 years ago. Within the lifetimes of many of us.
Maybe you are the one who needs to "learn something".”
Mistinguette Grandison on Jun 4, 2014 at 13:22:02
engineer 15 on Jun 3, 2014 at 08:14:06
“you really need to learn some reading comprehension, I didn't say slavery ended 350 years ago , I said the conditions and circumstances were differ 350 years as compared to today Slavery ended with the Emancipation Proclamation -- The Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620-- now even using 2014 as a total end date that's 394 years but you said ,according to you slavery ended completely as you put it , 50 years ago that would bring your total to 344 years -- as for discrimination ,Jim Crow and any other issues ,what do you think everything would be equal over night-- so really it's YOU that needs to learn something -- Math and reading comprehension”
May 30, 2014 at 07:24:32
“Proof is evident.
Business 101. Your largest expenses are always your staff and capital expenses, not your products.
Why do school districts in NYC, DC & Detroit require students to bring in reams of copy paper, paper towels and other classroom supplies? Why are many of the books outdated? If there is so much funding "per student" actually spent on students then why are parents of the public school students expected to pay for basic elements that should be paid thorugh the school budget with all of the "per student" funding?
And again, if the "ultimate" responsibility for education is on the parent, then what is the responsibility of the $70,000-$90,000 per year NYC public school teacher?”
Gunna on May 30, 2014 at 11:06:34
“90k isn't alot to pay for a teacher...if they're well educated and capable...i'd make it 100k...
it's not a "buisiness" there are no capital asset expenses ...capitol assets are paid by taxes or bonds...they are not included in the per student cost calculation...
the only thing DC students are required to bring to school are pens, pencils, paper for writing, and in some cases simple calculators ...”
May 30, 2014 at 04:29:47
“There is a difference between spending the money "per student" and actually spending the money on the student.
In essence, when one says that the money spent "per student" they are simply taking the total budget and dividing it by the number of students.
That does not mean that the money is actually used on resources for students. Its usually spent on salary and benefits of teachers and administrators as well as capital infrastructure. None of which necessarily directly impacts learning.
Its not spent on things like books and resources for children. Things that would actually impact learning.
And when achievement is low, parents are blamed. Heaven forbid we place any responsibility on the organization or elements that are actually supposed to enhance learning...the teachers or school district.”
Gunna on May 30, 2014 at 06:37:54
“sounds like a lot of conjecture, without a whole lot of proof..
oh and by the way, education is ultimately the responsibility of the parent...”
“I think there are issues where we agree and disagree.
My point was the same as yours. Talk of the good AND the bad. While you agreed that slavery was bad, Bill not only did not say ONE thing about slavery that was bad, he repeatedly downplayed what was bad.
How is that objective?
Since when is disagreeing, which is all I did, a "condemnation"? I NEVER denied anything he said about the "good", and its important to use that term loosely regarding slavery, we are talking about dehumanizing people.
But, being objective Linda, what did he EVER say that was bad about slavery?
And lastly, when one shows empathy and sorrow regarding one tragedy in the world, it's no less genuie nor does it need to be validated by showing sympathy about EVERY tragedy in the world.
If you show sorrow regarding the loss of one of your family members is it not genuine or valid regardless of whether you also show sympathy about the loss of my family member? And everyone else's family members?
This was never a personal attack. Simpy a disagreement and I think I am being MORE than fair. We are discussing slavery.
If one is objective, should they not discuss both the good and the bad? And since I never disagreed with the good, only suggested the bad be added, and Bill tried to refute it, shouldn't he be the one you address this to?”
Hansy Peguero on May 21, 2014 at 07:53:46
“Don't fall in her trap. There was nothing good about slavery. I don't care how "benign" the slave owners were. If they owned slaves they were wrong period.”
I think the point that everyone was making is that admitting privileges DO NOT benefit a patient in any way.
If there is an emergency and a patient needs to be admitted for care, they cannot be denied under federal law. Admitting privileges does not get you to the hopsital faster nor does it get you faster care.
If you are traveling, on vacation, etc., and you are in an accident and taken to the local hospital for care in an emergency do you think they are going to either:
1) get you there faster
2) get you any type of faster better or different care because your personal physician does or does not have admitting privileges to that hospital?
Bottom line is not whether or not admitting privileges are required under the law. You have made that point for Texas.
The issue is, does this in any way improve the speed, efficiency, effectiveness or impact the delivery of care? Are admitting privileges actually needed?
The answer is no. Because under FEDERAL law, hospitals are required to provide care to someone in need regaradless of their status, including ability to pay.
So again, why are admitting privileges needed?”
jstanavgguy on May 19, 2014 at 12:36:57
“Well, perhaps admitting privileges are necessary because that allows the doctor that was performing the procedure to actually treat their patient, should it become necessary to admit said patient to the hospital.
Keep in mind that these requirements existed BEFORE they were applied to abortion clinics.”
“Funny how you suggest that I am guilty of the same thing yet you still can't specifically identify what I denied.
He stated slave rape was " very rare" and that slave owners DID NOT murder slaves. Both are factually incorrect and I provided references. Therefore, he diminished and denied the severity of it.
I showed no emotion. He stated one part of slavery, I added another part and he attempted to suggest that the part I added, the negative part, wasn't significant or did not happen at all.
That is called down playing the negative and attemtping to make something seem better than it was.
When you look at his comments as a whole, this was the pattern throughout. He painted a picture of a rebellious South struggling to gain its independence. Slave owners, of which there were few, all of whom protected their investment by feeding, housing and providing care for their slaves. That's it.
What in that picture sounds bad?
I do not defend the South nor do I condemn it. I simply stated that you should tell the whole truth, good and bad, not a romanticized version because of one's blind allegiance.
FYI, I had no emotional reaction, but what is wrong with being an empathetic American who had a sense of empathy and sorrow for the horrors of what was slavery?
Are you suggesting that there should be no emotion about something so tragic because, again, it wasn't that bad?”
mcmarauder805 on May 19, 2014 at 12:51:37
“History is filled with tragic incidents and it needs to be remembered that these evens happened in a different time and with a different attitude.They shouldn't be taught with emotion or judgement. Do you have as much empathy for the slavery that existed in all the areas of world? For all the tragic events that have happened throughout history?" A history teacher needs to be objective - to present the information about events - where, when, and why it happened and to explore with his/her students the results - both immediately and long term both good and bad.
Your comments do come across as being a condemnation of both the South and of Bill's comments. "He painted a picture of the South struggling to gain its independence." - this is an accurate picture - especially from a Southern point of view - from a person of that time period.
You didn't just "simply state that you should tell the whole truth, good and bad..." you diminished the "good" and emphasized your view of the "bad". In modern terms a slave would cost as low as $15,000 and as high as $450,000. Even the rich planters couldn't afford to blindly abuse their slaves.”
“You have admittedly stated multiple times the main factor for credit scores has nothing to do with race, yet there are racial disparities in credit scores.
You don't directly answer my question and instead state that you don't know why this phenomenom occurs.
You continue to throw out veiled racial and ignorant comments.
Maybe you should reserach the topic a bit more before jumping to illogical conclusions (ie your conclusions cannot be logical as you have no idea why they occur).”
aztecdiva on May 18, 2014 at 23:57:50
“He is so blinded in his own delusions he can't see his nose despite his face. He could have 8 different studies showing something different and he will still go to one study that will support his argument. He can't comprehend that paying one bills on time is only one factor in establishing credit. He obviously is not aware of the debt to credit ratio, age of accounts, number of credit cards, debt limit or any items that are charged to a persons SSN that a person isn't aware of. Talking to him is like talking to any other fox news watcher or climate change denier - truth doesn't matter.”