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Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 21:16:23 in Politics
“If anyone here understands nothing about apartheid, know that the United States of America was quite active in its support for the apartheid regimes of South Africa. Indeed, it was from the peculiar American institution called the reservation that the South Africans got the idea for the bantustan.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 21:09:16 in Politics
“Coretta Scott King has always been a part of my life. I did not discover her yesterday.”
Mike Kilpatrick replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 22:31:01
“Since you seem to hold all the copyrights to Mrs. Kings words maybe you should read them sometime.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 17:55:04 in Politics
“You display a complete miscomprehension of coloredqueer's claim. Your response is completely disengenuous, and is precisely what he talking about. The thing is that you need not link anything. You ought to try and be original. Black people are still fighting, quiet as it is kept, for civil and human rights. Our struggle is far from over. De facto has not caught up with de jure, and this is the core of the matter for Black people.
Any failure to comprehend that simple fact is part and parcel of the failure of the gay white establishment to address genuinely the needs of its constituents, if it in fact considers Black gay men and women its constituents.
I think that coloredqueer is saying exactly that.”
Any failure to comprehend that simple fact is part and parcel of the failure of the gay white establishment to address genuinely the needs of its constituents, if it in fact considers Black gay men and women its constituents.
I think that coloredqueer is saying exactly that.”
Mike Kilpatrick replied on Nov 13, 2009 at 12:56:13
“Isn't it interesting to observe how a narrsissisic personality will make every argument, every discussion about them.”
GlennInVenice replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 19:51:52
“By the way, when I talk about gays and lesbians I never have a color in my head. It seems that the two of you do. I am sad that you feel a need to identify a class within a class but when I fight for gay rights it is not for white people that I fight for, it is for gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, and transgendered people.
Perhaps the classes within classes must be recognized and addressed as such. If so, you will have to educate me further about them. I will do my best to learn.
However, you will not get very far in helping me to understand by either telling me that as part of a priviledged class (something that I do not see), I need to act differently in my fight for repression nor will you get far by suggesting that my motives or actions are associated with racism, which they are not.
I feel that color blindness is an advanced social state. It seems that you feel I have to go backwards and once again see color. Perhaps you are right as I am living in a country that is not color blind.”
Perhaps the classes within classes must be recognized and addressed as such. If so, you will have to educate me further about them. I will do my best to learn.
However, you will not get very far in helping me to understand by either telling me that as part of a priviledged class (something that I do not see), I need to act differently in my fight for repression nor will you get far by suggesting that my motives or actions are associated with racism, which they are not.
I feel that color blindness is an advanced social state. It seems that you feel I have to go backwards and once again see color. Perhaps you are right as I am living in a country that is not color blind.”
GlennInVenice replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 19:43:39
“Women, gays, blacks, and other minorities will struggle against prejudice and inequality for all time. I am fully aware of that although I do know that I cannot comprehend with any detail the individual experience of what it is like to be part of a minority that I am not a part of, nor they, mine.
Civil rights movements end when civil rights have been secured. To my knowledge, women and blacks have the equal rights by law that they sought. If there is a way that our law continues to treat you as unequal please point it out to me.
RIght now we, the gays, are seeking our equal treatment under law. We draw from the language and experience of other civil rights movements.
Coloredqueer suggests that in my fight I am disregarding my priviledged status as a white man as though I need to hold my head down or speak in a hushed tone while pointing out my repression. Nonsense.
Further, he heaps allogations about deepseated racism in the gay community. If he wants to identify examples of systematic racism unique to gay people, as I will with regard to my current fight, I will be pleased to help him fight it.
However it seems to me that he has a big chip on his shoulder and in his posting he denegrates me as a gay white man.”
Civil rights movements end when civil rights have been secured. To my knowledge, women and blacks have the equal rights by law that they sought. If there is a way that our law continues to treat you as unequal please point it out to me.
RIght now we, the gays, are seeking our equal treatment under law. We draw from the language and experience of other civil rights movements.
Coloredqueer suggests that in my fight I am disregarding my priviledged status as a white man as though I need to hold my head down or speak in a hushed tone while pointing out my repression. Nonsense.
Further, he heaps allogations about deepseated racism in the gay community. If he wants to identify examples of systematic racism unique to gay people, as I will with regard to my current fight, I will be pleased to help him fight it.
However it seems to me that he has a big chip on his shoulder and in his posting he denegrates me as a gay white man.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 17:49:02 in Politics
“Dr. King was brutalized, harrassed and murdered while fighting for the freedom and humanity of me and mine. America did not lift a finger to help this great man, in point of fact did all the nastiest things possible to see destroy his life and his family.
Don't tell me what I "own". Dr. King did not become great in this nation until well after this nation murdered him.”
Don't tell me what I "own". Dr. King did not become great in this nation until well after this nation murdered him.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 17:37:16 in Politics
“Nothing except the experience of the person who made the claim. What do you not get about that?”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 16:51:34 in Politics
“Stop quoting Dr. King. America murdered him for his insight.”
paulcanning replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 19:10:23
“Your disagreement is with Coretta Scott King and her insight which you evidentially fail to hear.”
GlennInVenice replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 17:25:41
“You didn't read.
He quoted Coretta Scott King.
Also, it is none of your business who we quote. You do not own these great Americans any more or any less than I do.”
He quoted Coretta Scott King.
Also, it is none of your business who we quote. You do not own these great Americans any more or any less than I do.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 16:49:21 in Politics
“That would be too much trouble.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 16:43:57 in Politics
“Implied? You gotta clue about context?”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 16:29:57 in Politics
“You should define "plenty". There are plenty of posts here and in response to other blogs that state quite succinctly that the white gay movement is just that, white. You are suggesting that these Black people are lying? You are suggesting that they have not experienced what they claim?
Do not proceed on the basis that Black citizens receive equal protection. They most certainly do not. If you cannot see how this works, then your own strategies are bound to fail as they are not based in reality. Black citizens are engaged in the constant work of fighting for "rights" that white Americans take for granted. I am not excluding white gays in that accounting. If you are not able to empathize, that is no problem. If you cannot recognize how Black people continue to experience discrimination, your own outlook is compromised.
The struggle for Civil Rights is as long as Black people have been on these shores. It did not begin in the fifites or sixties as some imagine. It is far from over here in 2009.”
Do not proceed on the basis that Black citizens receive equal protection. They most certainly do not. If you cannot see how this works, then your own strategies are bound to fail as they are not based in reality. Black citizens are engaged in the constant work of fighting for "rights" that white Americans take for granted. I am not excluding white gays in that accounting. If you are not able to empathize, that is no problem. If you cannot recognize how Black people continue to experience discrimination, your own outlook is compromised.
The struggle for Civil Rights is as long as Black people have been on these shores. It did not begin in the fifites or sixties as some imagine. It is far from over here in 2009.”
Mike Kilpatrick replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 22:39:07
“You know Nommo sometimes your crappy life is your own damned fault.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 16:18:02 in Politics
“It is not a question of "lumping.". It is a matter of the expressed experience of some Black gay men and women. Is their experience without merit?”
lafon5891 replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 18:48:20
“You just love to throw around anecdotal evidence which isn't indicitive of what is actually going on. Of course the opinions of queers of color matter and of course their ideas are great and important. But when it comes down to it, I'm not that way, either is my partner. We want employment equality and marriage equality and the repeal of DADT. We want programs for gay youths and queers of color. I am totally for spending on elderly communities of LGBT people. I understand that queers of color have trials and hardships that I do not have, but that does not mean I write them off as you claim. Just because I don't have the exact same life experiences and hardship doesn't mean that I don't feel for queer minorities. I do very much.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 16:16:17 in Politics
“Nonsense. Take this from someone who is not gay and who has attended a number of pride events in NYC. All such events tend to be monochromatic. I don't see any mixing going on there, and how is it that you cannot respond to cq's claims with reasoned comment. No, he's gotta be a troll, he's gotta be unreal.
One of the insidious racist practices is the denial of another's experience.”
One of the insidious racist practices is the denial of another's experience.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 16:09:20 in Politics
“Maybe someone ought to. That was kind of the point of cq's post.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 16:08:07 in Politics
“Your post below is full of errors. I said nothing about people being searched illegally. You can experience that at any airport in the US. I t wrote about people who are victims of police violence. Do you have any idea how many Black men, women and children have been shot to death by police all over this nation? Ninety nine percent of those victims were unarmed and not involved in any criminal activity? How many of those police were convicted of any criminal behavior?
You do have recourse. There are civil rights laws that address all manner of workplace discrimination.
Black people and other "minorities" are routinely denied equal protection in all aspects of life. Jim Crow laws may have been scuttled, but Jim Crow behavior and practice is routine. You are right about the referendum things. If Black citizen's rights were subject to a referendum, we would be in chains tomorrow. Fortunately, those who shaped the movement took the tack that segregation by color was against the law, and were justified by the highest court in the land.
If you feel you are aggrieved in matters of equality, I'd suggest that before the movement goes 0 for 32, that a reevaluation of tactics is definitely in order.”
You do have recourse. There are civil rights laws that address all manner of workplace discrimination.
Black people and other "minorities" are routinely denied equal protection in all aspects of life. Jim Crow laws may have been scuttled, but Jim Crow behavior and practice is routine. You are right about the referendum things. If Black citizen's rights were subject to a referendum, we would be in chains tomorrow. Fortunately, those who shaped the movement took the tack that segregation by color was against the law, and were justified by the highest court in the land.
If you feel you are aggrieved in matters of equality, I'd suggest that before the movement goes 0 for 32, that a reevaluation of tactics is definitely in order.”
lafon5891 replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 18:39:45
“See, the point is we should not have to worry about "tactics". Our civil right SHOULD NOT BE UP FOR A POPULAR VOTE. That is a ludacris idea and one that not many other minorities in this country have to deal with ever. Further, my post was not full of errors. If you think police violence doesn't happen to queer individuals you are willfully ignorant. Do you remember the man that was put in a come by the police in a Texas gay bar by police just recently? Things like that happen all of the time to gay men and women and maybe you should look up the "gay panic defense". Jim Crow laws don't exist any more. Law about withholding rights from me are all over the country. Those civil rights laws that "protect" LGBT individuals are most city ordinances and aren't everywhere. Racial minorities are protected everywhere by law. I don't even know what you are arguing with me about. I don't want to have a debate on who had it worst. That's silly. The point is everyone deserves equal rights and those rights should not be up to the whim of the majority.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 15:55:59 in Politics
“It is indeed unfortunate that some in the Black community shun their gay brothers and sisters, but isn't that the price of assimilation and integration? It is among the many issues that need to be dealt with in amongst Black people,
and i am hopeful that as we confront the myriad of matters that are on the collective plate, this issue will receive its due.”
and i am hopeful that as we confront the myriad of matters that are on the collective plate, this issue will receive its due.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 12:50:15 in Politics
“Some people have raised millions to influence the vote, you can assume that they heard you loud and clear. Your voice is clearly being heard and a lot of people have decided that they don't like what they hear. The very fact that it has been put to a referendum time and again and has lost in every instance suggests that the reality function of the movement is severely impaired.
Gay people of color have their own issues, in and out of their communities. As people of color they could easily be victims of police violence and I will bet my bottom dollar that the white gay community will not turn out to support them. They will still experience the discrimination in the workplace, be followed in stores and other such indignities that are fostered upon people of color daily.
That first sentence should have read, "all racists claim not to be racist".
Lastly, seems to me that the gay community thinks that the Civil Rights Act was some gift to Black people for which we should be eternally grateful. The Act was simply an affirmation of the law of the land. When Plessy was declared unconstitutional, it was a declaration that the US allowed for one half a century, illegal discrimination based solely on skin color.”
Gay people of color have their own issues, in and out of their communities. As people of color they could easily be victims of police violence and I will bet my bottom dollar that the white gay community will not turn out to support them. They will still experience the discrimination in the workplace, be followed in stores and other such indignities that are fostered upon people of color daily.
That first sentence should have read, "all racists claim not to be racist".
Lastly, seems to me that the gay community thinks that the Civil Rights Act was some gift to Black people for which we should be eternally grateful. The Act was simply an affirmation of the law of the land. When Plessy was declared unconstitutional, it was a declaration that the US allowed for one half a century, illegal discrimination based solely on skin color.”
Tanyars5 replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 13:25:54
“Drop some knowledge on these people Nommo!”
lafon5891 replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 13:06:59
“First of all, I absolutely support people who are being searched illegally. I find it incredibly homophobic that you can generalize the whole population of white gays and say we wouldn't support those who are being opressed. Further, women's sufferage and racial civil rights and the right for interracial marriage were all good first steps ( and I see the racism and sexism that is all around us every day) but these rights were not put up to a popular vote. If they would have been they would have failed at the time they were passed. So, in that way the gay rights movement is extremely different as the majority is denying us rights and recently began stripping us of them. Not one put a referendum on the civil rights act and took away those rights. However, as far as legislation is concerned, racial minorites and women are equal (again I know that is not REALLY the case). If a rac ial minority is fired for simply being a minority they have recourse. I do not not. If a women is refused an apartment based soley on her sex she has recourse. I do not. I would, as you call it, like a little affirmation of the law of the land for LGBT individuals of any race or creed. That's all most of us want is some acknowledgement that were too are Americans that deserve equal rights.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 12:38:58 in Politics
“Funny thing here is that the author made no such claim. Point out where he says that "gay people haven't suffered from discrimination". It might help tremendously if you actually went back and read the blog all over again, if in fact you read it the first time. Further, your claims regarding what ever or never happened to Black people in this country are absurd, ahistorical, and reek of bombast.
You should actually read the Civil Rights Act. You seem to think that it only applies to Black people. That is profound ignorance in operation.”
You should actually read the Civil Rights Act. You seem to think that it only applies to Black people. That is profound ignorance in operation.”
aftershock replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 14:42:49
“Or I guess I should say what you asked isn't stated, but rather gay suffering is disregarded or downplayed several times.”
aftershock replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 14:41:55
“"Point out where he says that "gay people haven't suffered from discrimination"."
It's implied several times, perhaps you should re-read these passages...
-But the resulting legislation has not caused gay people to lose their jobs, their homes, their passports
-Gay ghettos may exist in many urban centers, but Chelsea, West Hollywood and Boystown could hardly be classified as Gay District 9s let alone Gay Sowetos.
-steeped in elitism and entitlement...
I can find more if you'd like.”
It's implied several times, perhaps you should re-read these passages...
-But the resulting legislation has not caused gay people to lose their jobs, their homes, their passports
-Gay ghettos may exist in many urban centers, but Chelsea, West Hollywood and Boystown could hardly be classified as Gay District 9s let alone Gay Sowetos.
-steeped in elitism and entitlement...
I can find more if you'd like.”
Talmageb replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 13:20:20
“You should read graham from canadas post higher up. I think it more clearly articulates the points that JackNasty was making.”
MoeB replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 12:53:01
“Further, the poster should specify: STRAIGHT "african-americans"...as gay blacks have experienced all on that list.
I find it weird that gay blacks are shunned by some in the black community for being gay, and within the gay "community", we're all but non-existent.”
I find it weird that gay blacks are shunned by some in the black community for being gay, and within the gay "community", we're all but non-existent.”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 12:30:45 in Politics
“When you use the term "homophobic", how are you qualifying it? As a phobia, with all attendant APA definitons?”
Marriage Equality and the Myth of "Gay Apartheid"
Commented Nov 12, 2009 at 12:16:59 in Politics
“All racists claim to be racist. No one cares about your claims. I'll bet that you will claim to have read the article as well. The very point that "minorities who should understand", do, they are not getting bent out of shape over these matters. Because we know discrimination and we recognize its practitioners. We know the value of a working reality function, it allows us to clearly identify our enemies and to devise an appropriate strategy for dealing with them. As long as their is the claim that Black people are enemies of same sex marriages, they will be barking up the wrong tree and the next referendum will bring the cause to 0 for 32.
In legal terms, marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman. You want to get married to another man, change the law. Grasp reality.”
In legal terms, marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman. You want to get married to another man, change the law. Grasp reality.”
Mike Kilpatrick replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 14:27:01
“Thanks Nommo, now tell us the one about AIDS being a government conspiracy to keep you down again.”
lafon5891 replied on Nov 12, 2009 at 12:33:38
“See, I never used the word black, thanks, and I do not think that black people are our enemy. And for your information, I did read the article and no I did not claim that the gay civil rights movement and the movement for racial equality are the same. I said they were comparable. I don't believe this arguing about extent of discrimination is healthy or beneficial in any way.
I believe the major difference is that gay people cannot be easily distinguished from straight people unlike racial minorites. So, no, we aren't asked to move the back of the bus and we don't have parents shield there children's eyes are we walk by. But we are beat up in the street on our way to go get cigarettes we are spit at and unjustifiably searched in gay bars and list goes on and on. Do I feel we are experiencing aparthied? No, but I do know where the term originated and it was an awful time in South American history. To claim that what we feel is "homo-hysteria" is offensive to me. So the next time you imply someone is a racist you should learn something about them first. To claim that I am out of touch with reality is silly. I'm angry and I am fighting for my equal rights and I think all of us minorities should stand together.That would cause change. That would get our vices heard”
I believe the major difference is that gay people cannot be easily distinguished from straight people unlike racial minorites. So, no, we aren't asked to move the back of the bus and we don't have parents shield there children's eyes are we walk by. But we are beat up in the street on our way to go get cigarettes we are spit at and unjustifiably searched in gay bars and list goes on and on. Do I feel we are experiencing aparthied? No, but I do know where the term originated and it was an awful time in South American history. To claim that what we feel is "homo-hysteria" is offensive to me. So the next time you imply someone is a racist you should learn something about them first. To claim that I am out of touch with reality is silly. I'm angry and I am fighting for my equal rights and I think all of us minorities should stand together.That would cause change. That would get our vices heard”
Charles Tyson, South Harrison Township's First Black Mayor, Steps Down After Death Threats
Commented Nov 10, 2009 at 19:56:13 in New York
“No shortage of guns and prayers in that town, I'll bet”
William Kunstler: Disturbing the Universe
Commented Nov 09, 2009 at 23:02:52 in Entertainment
“Indeed, the fact that William Kunstler was on the case, ant case, left one with the feeling of good hands being in the mix. He should be remembered as a champion for humanity. It has been a long time since I have been to the Cinema Village. I shall save the date. Congratulations and best of luck to both of you.”
The Campaign: The Audacity of Hope Did Not Die in Maine
Commented Nov 09, 2009 at 21:28:29 in Media
“As Black people will tell you, they ain't gotta do nothing but be Black and die. I'm having a hard time fathoming the notion that anyone who is not Black can generate the nerve to tell Black people what they should do and think. Because I don't remember whites en masse rising to any moment when the most savage brutalities were rained on Black people as a matter of course. This is true at any point in this nation's history.
Imagine the absurdity of your statement. That the Black church, as if it is some sort of monolith, some great one headed monster leading the charge against gay marriage. You'd better get a more firm grip on reality than that. I mean, really, where do you generate the nerve? Seems part and parcel of the entire movement to be detached from reality. There are great and profound issues that plague the Black community. We remain subject to the ravages of profound hate and disenfranchisement. Ask your gay Black friends about that.
You better look at your own community. Ask your gay Black friends about the racism they've experienced at the hands of their gay white "friends".”
Imagine the absurdity of your statement. That the Black church, as if it is some sort of monolith, some great one headed monster leading the charge against gay marriage. You'd better get a more firm grip on reality than that. I mean, really, where do you generate the nerve? Seems part and parcel of the entire movement to be detached from reality. There are great and profound issues that plague the Black community. We remain subject to the ravages of profound hate and disenfranchisement. Ask your gay Black friends about that.
You better look at your own community. Ask your gay Black friends about the racism they've experienced at the hands of their gay white "friends".”
Debbie Shields: Michelle Obama's White Fourth Cousin? (PHOTOS)
Commented Nov 09, 2009 at 17:59:35 in Style
“ha ha!”
The Campaign: The Audacity of Hope Did Not Die in Maine
Commented Nov 09, 2009 at 15:57:10 in Media
“Why should Black people know, as you'd have it, any better. Black people, having achieved "equality" now have the right to act as stupid, hateful and shamelessly so as the white people who for so long acted that way to keep Black people in "their place". So what is there to know "better than"?
You see, if one is Black, one knows and one never forgets that white people will turn in a minute, and if they could have Plessy v Ferguson all over again, it would happen quicker than a New York minute. You see, the hate never went anywhere. It is only the law that that keeps that thin veneer of civilization in place. The hate of the teabaggers, birthers and whatever other fringe loonies there are out there is no different from the hate that firebombed Black churches.”
You see, if one is Black, one knows and one never forgets that white people will turn in a minute, and if they could have Plessy v Ferguson all over again, it would happen quicker than a New York minute. You see, the hate never went anywhere. It is only the law that that keeps that thin veneer of civilization in place. The hate of the teabaggers, birthers and whatever other fringe loonies there are out there is no different from the hate that firebombed Black churches.”
lesterbud replied on Nov 09, 2009 at 18:07:02
“Sorry Nommo
I may be just misreading you a bit. If so, I am sorry.
My point was that since Blacks do have a collective, social memory of severe oppression and denial of basic human rights, they should be more sensitive to other groups experiencing anything close to that same plight.
Since it is the rightfully despised tea-baggers and birthers that hate gays most of all, there should also be a common enemy.
Thus, my dismay at Black leaders and Black churches leading the charge to oppress gays.
By the way, I do now quite a few Black gays.”
I may be just misreading you a bit. If so, I am sorry.
My point was that since Blacks do have a collective, social memory of severe oppression and denial of basic human rights, they should be more sensitive to other groups experiencing anything close to that same plight.
Since it is the rightfully despised tea-baggers and birthers that hate gays most of all, there should also be a common enemy.
Thus, my dismay at Black leaders and Black churches leading the charge to oppress gays.
By the way, I do now quite a few Black gays.”
New Website Aims To Be An iTunes For Poetry
Commented Nov 08, 2009 at 12:18:06 in Living
“You can hear all of that for nada, @ http://www.live365.com/stations/noboarderspoetry”
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