OdinsEye's Comments (3207)

“Just imagine what the response to the question would have been if Luntz had asked:

- Do you support denying people their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms, without due process?

After all, that is what Paul and others are advocating!”

“"How do you explain, then, the absence of "gun ownership" on lists of deterrents against "home invasion" provided by virtually all reputable government and private agencies?"

And where are these lists?”

“We have already been down this road.

The problem with the survey is while it does establish whether or not the respondent is or is not an NRA member, it does not establish whether or not the respondent is aware of what the "terror watch list" is.

If people knew that there are actually more than 13 such watch lists maintained by separate agencies, including the infamous "no fly list", and that there is no uniform criteria to get on these lists;

If people knew that the mother of all lists, the TSDB, is compiled from all the other non-standard lists, that it contains a million names or some 400,000 people, the vast majority of whom have never done anything wrong and actually have no ties to terrorism - as admitted to by the FBI and the GAO;

If people knew that it is nearly impossible to find out if your name is in the TSDB and if it is wrongly in the TSDB, it can take months, even years to get your name removed - again, GAO findings;
If people knew that the TSDB and other lists rely on names, not social security numbers, passport numbers, etc. and that many people could be denied because they have the same name as a person on the list;

Then they might rethink their answers.

The Luntz survey relies on ignorance of the respondents to achieve its numbers.”

“My "ad hominem" (and it was not an argumentum ad hominem) was in response to yours.

And I cannot talk to the definitions used by others. I am using the ones used in several FBI documents.”

“"I provided but one small example"

Which I complete refuted. But thanks for playing.

"Additionally, any "hot burglary" would be deemed a home invasion by by OE as well"

Just as incorrect as your previous attempt. Hot burglaries do not involve the threat or use of violence. That is the major difference between a hot burglary and a robbery.

You are batting about .000 today.”

“"I was asking for you to guide me to a website that might recommend guns as a pre-emptive safeguard against those crimes."

In case you missed it, I said that was not the intent of my post here, nor will it be. Take your windmill somewhere else.”

“Refusal to leave still involves unlawfully being on the premises, so it really would not conflict much with what was said.

So your derisive comments are juvenile at best.”

“"It is, indeed, difficult to find conclusive numbers on "home invasions", "

I agree. The major problem the crime is not defined by federal law or even by most states, so stats on it are not gathered. Instead, it is a lateral category of crime which involves several other offenses based on the circumstance of the crime and as such is classified by the vertical category of crime involved (robbery, assault, kidnapping, rape, homicide). Further, sources like the UCR do not give the circumstances of each of these violent crimes.


"since the criteria used to define that scary phenomenon vary from website to website"

The criteria I used is based on the criteria used in most FBI references: Occurs in a residence, involves illegal entry, requires the use or threat of force against the occupants, and involves the element of an additional crime. Robberies in residence by definition meet almost all of these criteria, but the means of entry is not specified; however, in nearly all cases of robberies in a residence, enrty is illegal. Therefore, almost all robberies in residences are home invasions.

"One consistent thread I did uncover though, was that firearm ownership or use weren't included in any list of pre-emptive measures against "home invasion" or any of the other crimes you mention."

I am not defining pre-emptive measures.”

“"Note how we swing from 8000 home invasions per day "

I have no idea what the sources are for the 8000 per day and cannot speak to the veracity of that number. The source I gave is the FBI UCR.

"Of course, we now find out the 58000 number actually constitutes robberies at a residence--not actual home invasions."

The definition of robberies in residence is virtually indentical to the definition of home invasions. Both involve the use or threat of violence in order to take material from a residence. The only extra criteria for home invasions is illegal entry and in almost all robberies in residence, entry is gained illegally.

"As such, a man who steals some money from his girlfriend is actually committing a "home invasion.""

Only if he uses violent force or the threat of violence against his girlfriend to take the money and gains entry illegally. If entry was gained through legal means, but violence is used, it is robbery.

If no violence is involved, but the entry is illegal, it is burglary. If no violence is involved and entry is legal, it is theft.

Again, not all home invasions are robberies. Many are assaults, kidnappings, rapes, or homicides. So you have the vast majority of robberies in residence (over 58,000 in 2008) + any assaults, kidnappings, rapes, or homicides in residence and involving illegal entry.

So, like I said, it is safe to say there were at least 60,000 home invasions in 2008.”

“Thus, not all robberies are home invasions and not all home invasions are robberies, but nearly all robberies in residence are home invasions. Unfortunately the FBI 2008 UCR does not give location data for kidnapping, assault, rape, or homicide. Most of the 58,000 robberies in residences will qualify as home invasions. A good percentage of assaults, kidnappings, rapes, and homicides will also will also qualify. Therefore, it is safe to say that well over 60,000 home invasions occured in 2008.”

“Here are the basics of each term.

Theft: The unlawful non-violent taking of material or intellectual property. Entry into a structure, system, or vessel may be legal. Force may or may not be used against an object, safe or lock. Can be electronic in vector. In 2008 there were apporximately 6,428,000 non-electronic thefts of material property.

Burglary: The unlawful, non-violent taking of material from a structure or vessel which is not an automobile. Force may or may not be used in entry, but the entry is illegal. Comprises two actions, breaking & entering and taking. In 2008 there were over 1,924,000 burglaries.

Robbery: The unlawful, violent taking of material from a person or occupied structure or vessel which involves force or the threat of force against persons in order to obtain the material. When done in a residence when illegal entry is involved, robbery becomes known as "home invasion robbery", but robberies can occur in almost any venue including "street mugging", hold-ups, etc. In 2008, there were approximately 359,000 robberies, about 16% or 58,000 of which occured in residences.

Home invasion: Any of several violent crimes including robbery, kidnapping, assault, rape, or homicide when they occur in the victim's residence and entry is illegal.”

“""Home invasion" is a construct of the media."

Which is why it has been the subject of several FBI papers, right? Like the one over 14 years ago describing the problem and suggesting several methods of addressing the problem.”

“Leeclayton,

Please define:

1) Home invasion

2) Robbery

3) Burglary

4) Theft”

“Definition
The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines robbery as the taking or attempting to take anything of value from the care, custody, or control of a person or persons by force or threat of force or violence and/or by putting the victim in fear.

Definition
The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines burglary as the unlawful entry of a structure to commit a felony or theft. To classify an offense as a burglary, the use of force to gain entry need not have occurred. The UCR Program has three subclassifications for burglary: forcible entry, unlawful entry where no force is used, and attempted forcible entry. The UCR definition of “structure” includes apartment, barn, house trailer or houseboat when used as a permanent dwelling, office, railroad car (but not automobile), stable, and vessel (i.e., ship).

Burglaries are non-violent crime (force being only used against a lock or structure). Robberies are violent crimes (force used against persons).

16% of all robberies or about 58,424 separate robberies in 2008 were robberies in residences (IOW "homes"). As such, a robbery in a residence IS a home invasion.

There are also "home invasions" which are rap.es, murd.ers, as.saults, etc., putting the tally well over 60,000 in 2008.”

“¡Feliz Navidad y próspero año nuevo!”

“"So the factual assertion that New York's crime rate has fallen as a result of gun control requires justification"

Since there is no such "fact", then yes. There is no proof that gun control has had any affect on NY's crime rate.”

“And states with "looser" gun control laws like Vermont, Virginia, Kentucky, Utah, etc, actually had lower violent crime rates than NJ. While some states with "tight" gun control like California had higher rates than NJ.”

“When Chicago implemented theirs, their rate went up for the next ten years.

There is no evidence that gun control reduces crime.”

“A large number of the so called children are actually adults. HCI/BC and VPC have been caught time and time again including 18 to 24 year olds, 18 to 21 year olds, and 18 & 19 year olds as "children". In fact, one guy got caught doing it here on HP just the other day (John Rosenthal - Health Care Costs and Gun Violence)”

“"the research is clear that keeping a gun at home increases the risk of serious injury or death to those inside."

Actually, if you really read the research, it is clear that keeping a firearm in the home is far less of a factor in injury or death than things like renting vs owning your home, or if you live in an apartment complex which floor you live on.

The bottom line is the excercise of an enumerated right should NEVER be used to discriminate against people's health care options.”

“Absolutely! I hate mag safeties almost as much as I hate that st.upid trigger gizmo that Glock and others have been doing lately. Plus, this firearm has a loaded chamber indicator.

Instead of finding the manufacturer liable, they should find the boy's father liable. The firearm should not have been left loaded and chambered where the boy could get it. If the father had even just left the firearm loaded but not chambered there would have been no discharge and no death. If the firearm had been left out but not loaded, this would not have happened. If the firearm had been locked as it should have, this would not have happened.

Bottom line, it was Daddy's fault.”

“Bush did not run the police departments.”

“And only a small fraction of the numbers given actually involve someone actually carrying concealed.”

“You are really reaching. For one, Bush was not exactly the pro-gun side's best friend. Second, The President does not exactly set the tome for local law enforcement.”

“No, he is accusing them of being political, which they are.”