“logic102, I typed internet boom and I meant internet boom. An internet bubble, though the terms seem similar, does not signify the same thing. We're talking about employment and not investment or trading.
Now, the stats I posted from Michigan and Ohio were for a reason. Michigan is Detroit's manufacturing base and Ohio is also noted for its manufacturing heritage where in both a drastic rise in employment rates due to the internet can be discounted. Manufacturing and car jobs specifically also happen to be the point of this entire thread. I'm surprised that you neglected to address the stats that I posted. They're too significant to disregard when deliberating NAFTA's effect on manufacturing jobs. Not only were there increases in good ole American manufacturing jobs until 2000, wages also increased from $12 per hour to $16 from 1994-2004.
Both Robert Reich and Josef Steiglitz share in my views concerning NAFTA and manufacturing.
You cited Avon in support of your position. A good friend is exec. management of Avon and she's constantly flying from NYC to Beijing. So many of the jobs have gone east. And here, we're getting to the heart of another point in that rather than US jobs moving "south" due to NAFTA like Perot had predicted, they've actually gone to China. China as you know, is not in North America.
So no, I did not and still do not hear that "sucking sound" of jobs going down south because of NAFTA.”
“Be that as it may, though I don't read Farsi, I do read Asian languages dispatches from countries that enjoy diplomatic and significant trade relations with Iran. I'll just say, you're all being way too lenient in your re-presentations. It's a serious matter and just as the Americans shouldn't have cooked up intelligence concerning Iraq, people should not be downplaying the significance of what's going on with glib dismissals.”
“Sorry, but Brzezinski one of the last guys I'd want to hear about on the subject of Iran and the Middle East. He played a large role in the Gulf being such a mess now, and I still haven't forgiven him for his and Carter's ineptitude during the hostage fiasco. If anyone ever wants to berate the US military, the failed rescue attempt is a leading item.”
cliffhammond on Dec 5, 2010 at 22:58:55
“Conceding the point, the article in (I think) either the NYTimes or the Washington Post on Wednesday of last week issued the same caution. I give his statement credence because other analysts are saying the same thing only more directly, that Israel and the U.S. neocons are behind the leaks critical of Iran and some even work to undermine the Obama Administration.”
“Unless the Chinese have sold them something new, I really don't see why Israel or Europe would be too worried about what they currently have given that the Russian have canceled what they were to sell them, the S-300. Shahab-3 is a souped up Scud and the newer Musudan North Korean missiles - and it's even debatable if they even have these - are all North Korean junk.
I'm actually not happy Obama and Gates are pushing the missile defense agenda given the current economy, jobless rate and deficit.”
jgarbuz on Dec 5, 2010 at 23:31:55
“The Iranians are quite capable of taking old technology and making new things with them. Iran is not a third world country. It has a highly trained scientific and technically capable population. And after all, wasn't the US missile program built on the German V-2 originally?”
“my ID is from a Wagner opera. Some Jews may still find that offensive though I'm not anti-Semitic. I'm also not anti-Persian. I read up on Israel mostly via Haaretz and Iran via Tehran Bureau. And I really don't find your replies here and your serial posting all that helpful. Probably because I don't speak Farsi.”
“What the Wiki cable leaks confirmed was that the Middle East regional players wanted a preemptive strike against Iran to prevent the country from acquiring nukes. "We already have it, suckers" is a smart play to prevent such an attack. Besides, what the DPRK has shown is that if a country is dead set on acquiring nukes, the international community is too gutless to really prevent it and just saber-rattles. We can't even be bothered to prosecute A.Q. Khan.”
persianadvocate on Dec 5, 2010 at 12:15:45
“Nice talking point, Hasbara anyone? lol how is this even a real argument?”
Magic 62 on Dec 5, 2010 at 12:11:58
“The despotic Arab dictators that are hanging by a thread want US to fight their wars too, just like Israel. I would say, Israel is in good company.”
“You have it completely backwards. Koreans have been importing cleap labor from the less developed countries for the last 10 years. What few illegal Koreans workers there are in the US, they overwhelmingly work for other Koreans. Not many Korean Americans own farms here. Instead, they'll find jobs in community centers as teachers or work in restaurants or cleaners and so forth.
Reading these comments is like a time-warp into the 70s.”
Jerome48 on Dec 6, 2010 at 19:16:23
“Ugh, I'm not suggesting Koreans will work here-- merely that the US gets to export more farm products to Korea as its "benefit" in the deal, hence an increased demand for more underpaid (and even better if undocumented) farm workers (almost assuredly from Latin America).”
“There's a more entertaining video of Perot debating Al Gore about NAFTA with Larry King on youtube if you search for it. That said, Perot was wrong about NAFTA then and he's wrong about it now. The first five years following NAFTA's passage saw unemployment level fall to new lows. True, the internet boom was party responsible for this, but there's more to it then that.
When NAFTA took effect in Jan. 1994, Michigan's unemployment rate was at 7.2%. It fell to 5.2% within a year and within three years, the rate was down to 4.7%, finally bottomed out to 3.3 % in March 2000 and began its steadly climb past 10% in Dec. 2008.
We see a similar pattern in Ohio where there were some 990,000 manufacturing jobs in 1994 that climbed to 1.3 millon two years after NAFTA. It remained over a million for the rest of the 90s.
Unemployment really began to rise in 2000 and have kept rising. Even at that, industry that took advantage of loopholes in NAFTA and received government subsidies make out well here. How many corn growers complain about NAFTA?”
logic102 on Dec 5, 2010 at 10:48:28
“Perot was right. It just takes a little time for some companies to pick up and move their manufacturing operations outside the U.S.
Your right that the internet boom (more rightly, internet bubble) was partly responsible for lower unemployment numbers. After the internet bubble came the housing bubble that masked the problem of the loss of manufacturing jobs with respect to the overall economy.
Now the housing bubble has burst and we have seen the loss of 2 million construction jobs, most of which will not be coming back.
The internet jobs are mostly gone, the housing jobs are gone, and over the last decade we have lost one third of our manufacturing base (6.5 million jobs).
Just a few months back Avon announced the closing of a manufacturing plant in Cincinnati, OH that involved sending 400 jobs to Mexico. Now, if you listen carefully, you can hear the "sucking" (swoosh) sound that Perot was talking about.”
“Fine, write Obama and your representatives. Tell them to reject the deal. Then GM can pull their South Korean factory that produces 2 million cars per year throughout Asia, South America and Europe, and the Koreans can buy more European and Japanese cars instead of American. They can also buy their beef and agriculture from the Canadians and Australians who are already miffed that the Koreans went with the US despite their heavy lobby and courtship.”
“South Korea's unemployment rate now is under 4%. Their annual minimum wage is a little under Japan's and Spain's and more than Portugal's. What type of jobs would the US export to Korea that threatens low- to mid- wage US workers?
Additionally, the Hyundai Sonata and Sante Fe and the Kia Sorrentos are all made in the US by US workers.”
“Exactly! And GM hasn't really complained throughout the process precisely because they already have a factory in Korea's GM/Daewoo that produces and sells nearly 2 million units per year throughout Asia, South America and Europe. Given the charged, political climate though, I'm not sure any of this will actually matter. It might be too much to ask people to realize that other countries were and are still waiting in the wings to tap into the Korea market.”
“There's more to the story than what's presented here.
In the fifth year of the agreement, both nations would eliminate all tariffs on passenger cars. Light trucks had also been a thorny point. Light truck sale have increased of late in the US, and Ford's made a killing the past decade on LT sales in the US. So, the U.S. can keep a 25 percent tariff on Korean made trucks for eight years but the Koreans must eliminate its 10 percent tariff on light trucks immediately.
While auto workers and manufacters are important, it helps to keep agriculture in mind also. Korea is the US' third largest beef market. Tariffs on beef, pork, corn, oranges and so forth have all been lifted by the Korean side.
Additionally, the Kor-US FTA puts pressure on Japan to adopt a similar FTA with the US. Japan liberalizing its market for US agriculture imports has been the major sticking point in adopting a free trade agreement between the two countries.”