Looky, looky, it includes Tibet. Does that mean that India should have the right to rule Tibet? After all, it was on some ancient map....”
cynara on Apr 1, 2008 at 19:52:47
“Just because China decided to include Tibet in its maps doesn't it mean that it had any physical rule over Tibet.
Spain and Portugal, in the 1500s, created a map that divided every country between the two of them. That does not mean that Spain or Portugal ever ruled Japan, or Thailand, or half the other countries on the map, it just means that the mapmaker was ambitious.
Just because someone includes a region on a map of their country does not mean that they have influence in the actual governing of that people (i.e. foreign policy, taxation, domestic policy, etc.).”
Apr 1, 2008 at 19:12:06
“So you condone the violence -- the 22 people who died, including children. Who were guilty of nothing other than being Not Tibetan?
Would you feel the same way if this was South Central LA, and it was upset Black Americans rioting against White and Asian Americans? And 22 people died? Would you say, 'gee they have a point'? Or would you say 'STOP THE VIOLENCE NOW', and then ask questions later?”
cynara on Apr 1, 2008 at 19:43:54
“Of course I don't condone violence. But violence is often a desperate expression of a valid greivance. In the case of the Rodney King riots, to which you are refering, the greivance was the absolute neglect of the poorer parts of LA, coupled with an extremely corrupt police department that had been unfairly discriminating against minorities in the community.
Obviously burning buildings is not the solution. But to come to a valid long lasting solution the party in charge - in the case of LA, the LAPD, and in the case of Tibet, the Chinese government, has to examine the cause behind the uprising. And I, bet it would be a lot easier for the Chinese to restore order, if they offered the Tibetan Monks an audience to air their grievances and propose possible solutions (like partial autonomy for Tibet), in return for a restoration of order.”
Apr 1, 2008 at 19:07:04
“Not a mole I bet. Just another human being with a point of view and disappointment he is trying to share, like every other person on this blog.
You should be grateful that a Chinese person is reaching out to talk to you. I cannot say the same attitude is true of Americans thinking about China these days.”
shanghaislim on Apr 2, 2008 at 00:35:18
“He is not a "drunk" bitter Chinese so he has no reason to believe him.”
cynara on Apr 1, 2008 at 20:02:12
“I am extremely grateful that the Chinese government is allowing their surrogates and followers to read and comment on these blogs. I lived in China and I've seen the way that the Chinese government stifles dissent and opposing points of view. If by debating with us on these blogs, the Chinese are able to examine, and perhaps sympathize, with the other side of the argument, my day is made. Critical thinking and freedom of thought are essential to getting to the truth of any issue.”
TheEnticer on Apr 1, 2008 at 19:34:37
“Are you serious? distorting history because you are getting paid to doesnt make a real debate.
I am not an American yet, still my attitude towards China is the same, cautious. They have been known to break their word in the past. Remember Panchasheel? Google it, while you are at it, google Tibet's history through time.
This has nothing to do with who is making the argument (you or other chinese people) and all to do with what the argument is (inane).”
Apr 1, 2008 at 19:03:43
“Well, the violence in Tibet that resulted in 22 people dead, including children, was from young male Tibetans. Not monks.
Do you have evidence of the killings of Tibetans by the Chinese? I am serious.
Because the TYC keep claiming it to be true, but I don't see how they know if they are not in China. You know of course they have been planning these protests for months? And that they do not reject violence?”
cynara on Apr 1, 2008 at 20:07:03
“Unfortunately, nobody knows what is going on in Tibet, because the Chinese government is not letting observers in. If they would allow the foreign media to report, we could see for ourselves whether or not their is violence against Tibetans or violence against Han settlers. I am guessing that there is probably violence against both. Because why else would Chinese seal off Tibet? But to beat the Tibetans into submission in private.
The Chinese government learned one thing after the Tienemen square massacre, and that is, if you are going to kill and beat your citizens, don't do so with international press watching....”
Apr 1, 2008 at 18:59:38
“Go to Tibet, and see for yourself. And help people remember what is important. There are tremendous pressures on Tibet -- all over China -- you can be a good force by keeping an open mind and heart. There is oppression, but it isn't simply the Chinese hating Tibetans. The Chinese are struggling with development and breakneck growth, and too much is being lost, all over China.”
Apr 1, 2008 at 18:57:10
“Well, I think it much more likely that they are private citizens, who are Chinese. Most likely students or immigrants to the US and Canada. I don't know how many Chinese in the PRC would know HuffPo.
I have been shocked, for my part, at how QUICKLY China went under the bus. And the unthinking acceptance of the Western bias in reporting the unrest in Tibet. EVERY PHOTO you see of kicking screaming monks hauled off by police is taken in NEPAL, INDIA or elsewhere -- not China. You can tell because of the blue-gray uniforms. But most people accept the images as FACT, because they think 'it might as well be true'.
And I will tell you right now, the same MSM that led us all by the nose on the War, on Bush, and on the election cycle is leading you by the nose on framing the Tibet/China issues. Yes, China needs to fix their Tibet policy. This will take Beijing and the DL both. But Tibets population is higher than its ever been, and their life expectancy is DOUBLE what it was under the Dalai Lama. They can get educations -- girls too. And they do not have to be monks in order to succeed in society. There is a higher concentration of Buddhists in Tibet than ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD. It's not all bad news about Tibet.”
Rule Of Law on Apr 1, 2008 at 21:52:31
“ashen, first, even in the PRC they know how to Google--You put Tibet plus China and you get it all--easy, yes? 2nd, no one has thrown China under the bus. That is like Hillary saying she hasn't gotten a fair shake from the Media in order to spin and distort the facts. We are only holding China to the same standards we ( and by we, I mean those on HuffPo who genuinely regret the acts of the Bush Regime, the genocide in Darfur, the killing in Myanmar etc...) and demand accountability from any tyrants who try to suppress the freedoms we all desire.
The rest of your post is just fluff and I won't take the time to respond to it.”
cynara on Apr 1, 2008 at 20:19:04
“The Chinese government has done some good things for Tibet, but if Tibetans are rioting, it is because they are not content with the current state of Tibetan/Chinese relations. Namely, that China rules over Tibet and the Tibetans have little say in their own government. Also, China is importing Han settlers on to land that once belong to Tibetans. These are valid grievances. Regardless of what China has done right, they have also undermined Tibetan pride, culture, and self-determination, which is enough to make people unhappy and resentful.
I didn't approve of the war in Iraq - I railed against it before it happened, while it happened, and today.
And I don't approve of China's heavy handling of Tibet either.
Apr 1, 2008 at 18:49:46
“Sure. And let's give California back to Mexico if they ask for it. And how about Manhattan back to the Native Americans if they ask for it. And how are those reparations coming along for hundreds of years of slavery, hmm?
I do agree with you that Tibetans need to have more self-determination. The Dalai Lama and the Beijing Central government need to sit down and talk.”
cynara on Apr 1, 2008 at 19:07:23
“If the people of California wanted to be given the choice to secede from the US, I hope the US would honor our decision and would allow us to hold a vote on succession. Its not about "giving back" to anyone , its about the power of the people to determine whether they would like to be ruled by a certain government.
However, in California, local people do have control over local and state government and US states are given a certain measure of autonomy, which is one of the many reasons why there is no California movement to secede.
In the case of Tibet, Tibetans have no say in their government at the local, state or national level. They are ruled entirely by what they consider to be a foreign people (which is fairly accurate considering they have a different language, culture, and genetic make-up than Chinese), and it is not hard to imagine why a people would revolt against absolute rule by a culture and ethnicity that is not their own.
The native Americans, for better or worse, are no longer the majority of people that live in Manhattan or any where, except on Indian tribal lands which are autonomous. The Tibetans continue to be the majority of the people living in Tibet (though the Chinese government is working hard at changing this). I believe that the people that live in a place should have some say in how and by who their state is governed.”
Apr 1, 2008 at 18:33:55
“Um, no. It is fact that Tibet has never been recognized as an nation independent of China. This is a relationship that goes back centuries.”
Rule Of Law on Apr 2, 2008 at 14:21:08
“The Ming Emperor received the Dalai Lama as an independent sovereign and as an equal. It is recorded that he went out of his capital to meet the Dalai Lama and that he had an inclined pathway built over the city wall so that the Dalai Lama could enter Peking without going through a gate.”
cynara on Apr 1, 2008 at 19:24:16
“Tibet has been considered part of various nations, including India, Great Britain, the Mongol Empire and China. Basically, whoever was the regional power at the time, laid claim to Tibet, at least on the map. This does not mean that this power actually had any physical presence in Tibet or that the Tibetan people considered themselves part of this country. And that is relevant question today, do the Tibetans wish to be a part of China?”
“FINALLY HUFFPO takes down the Nepalese photograph on the front page.
That article is a stinker though -- there is a group called the Tibetan Youth Congress that have supported violence for the cause of Independence. They have a bunch of posts on YouTube, and there are other references to them on Google. This is where the government-cited "Tibetan Uprising Movement" came from -- THIS GROUP. Not the Dalai Lama.”
“I am perfectly good with the idea of cooling off the overheated Chinese economy, and nixing trade deals that produce corporate profits but nothing for ordinary Americans.
I am also in favor of ordinary Americans realizing that ordinary Chinese are not our enemy. They just want a family-supporting wage and a future for their kids too. The Chinese government is really the lesser of two evils -- the other being economic, social, and political implosion, ala Russia, now a gangster state.
America really doesn't want to see triads and warlords take over China -- this is what happens if the Chinese government fails. And this is why there will not be an independent country of Tibet. It is a national security issue.
There are opportunities to change and influence China, now more than ever. Open your eyes and your hearts. Ditch that cynicism. The world needs serious healing, and we still have a chance to make a positive impact. Come on America, I believe in you.”
“The monks you see being carried away by guards in uniform are not in China.
They are in Nepal.
What is happening in Tibet is not genocide. The Dalai Lama has called it 'cultural genocide', but the measure for this is tricky. There is far more WESTERN influence on Tibetans in Lhasa than there is Han Chinese. The Tibetans speak their own language and then must learn Mandarin (the national language) in secondary school -- they need this language to be competitive. The region is 95% Tibetan, and there are many non-religious Tibetans in government themselves -- it is not genocide. China needs to change their Tibet policy, which has not provided enough economic opportunity, and does not allow open worship of the Dalai Lama, who they fear is a separatist. Tibet will never be an independent country.
The only hope is for the Dalai Lama and Beijing to sit down and negotiate.”
“Thank you for sharing this. What you describe matches the amateur video and photos that were taken, and the reporting from the journalist from The Economist, who was also there through the unrest.
It's the headlines that have been distorted and misleading, coupled with the Nepalese, Indian, Candian or New York photos.
I know some of the journalists who were on the Tibet junket. I haven't had a chance to speak with them yet. The over slant of the reporting in the west has been grossly imbalanced. The Chinese sure don't help themselves, but that is not a reason to make up lies.
“Man, you would THINK Americans would have learned, after having been led by the nose by the mainstream press on Iraq and Bush for the last seven years, how to BE CRITICAL and USE THE F'ING GOOGLE when it comes to news they want to drop bombs over!
This is a link to some scholarship on ancient Tibet, with pictures.
They used to use the skin of children as a magical totem. They would cut off limbs as punishment for petty theft. Those who were not monks were basically slaves. The monks always got the best of everything there was.
I actually like the Dalai Lama as he has reinvented himself. He is a singularly remarkable human being. But the monks are not supernatural -- it is a religion like any other. It is imperfect, like any other. It is human, and capable of distortion, like any other. If you don't buy the idea that every Catholic is like the Pope, then you have some idea of what I mean.
This is why I think it possible for some monks to have hidden weapons. Or maybe they were fake monks. I am not saying this is proven, just possible. But I really don't think faithful adherents to the Dalai Lama would be suicide bombers.”
“... which would of course send China's economy down the tubes as well. I think this is one of those cut off your nose to spite your face scenarios. And so far, on the international stage, only America has been rash enough to do this.”
“Those heavily armed soldiers are not Chinese. They are actually Nepalese. The photos are from Kathmandu, the capital of Nepal. You can tell they are Nepalese because of the pattern of the camo. It's error is all over the web.
There are serious issues, but misrepresenting the facts to paint a juicier picture is just bad journalism. Thank you Fox News for setting the bar so low, no one seems to give a damn.”
“Actually, the error has been all over the mainstream news. BBC, AP, German TV, CNN -- they've all done it, and been slow to make the correction that it's not actually China they are showing, but police in camos from India and Nepal.
Chalk up another win for 'might as well be true' journalism.”
MagisterLudi on Apr 3, 2008 at 00:23:00
“Violence sells, especially when Britny Spears is away.
I think journalist majors should be required to do a minor in world history.
The intellectual level of American mainstream journalism ( except New Yorker and Atlantic) is shockingly low. But what do except of the generation that has been raised on Nick at Nite.”
“Well, perhaps cult was a strong word. I am an atheist however, so what I mean by cult is a religion that relies overmuch on magic or living deities, as opposed to fostering higher impulses and taming baser ones.”