“You're right about the essay. It started out 77 words over. When it got condensed to 250 it still made sense to me, but not to anyone else. You're right about discussing abortion also -- waste of time.
What sucked me in was the attitude that Limbaugh should be off the air. It should scare everyone when free speech is threatened. It should scare everyone that our individual freedoms are being eroded in the name of “fairness” and “the common good”. It is a shell game to increase the power of central government. I defend the right for anyone to choose, and defend, what’s best for them within the law.
I am tired of the excuse that the church, or religion, is “clouding” my judgment about a woman’s right to choose abortion. My reasoning is crystal clear. I like you zoebear and, yes, we’re done with this.”
“The words “church”, “religious” and “biblical” are rallying points for the left.
I believe that abortion is murder. There are laws against murder. Some believe, as does the president, that partial birth abortions are acceptable. Does it become a human being a minute later when the cord is cut? Some even believe that killing the baby is acceptable. When does human life begin; tell me.
The question you are asking is not what I believe, but why I believe it.
Earlier, I had proposed “chucking” the biblical values, adopting the Progressive, or post-modern line and the “if it feels good do it” mentality. “Would that do it for you?” One responder said flatly, “yea”. I guess total and complete Anarchy would be his solution; nuff’ said there.
The other end is to embrace Aristotle, Hobbes, More, Marx and Engels and the like. Give up all your individual rights, assign them to the central government because they are better qualified to decide what you can do, how you do it, what you can have, what you will do for a living, how best to raise your kids, etc.
Again, the question is not what you believe, but what is the basis for your beliefs? What value system do you embrace? If you can show me a system of rules to live by, a government anywhere that has come even close to what America is – show me. Whether it’s based on biblical principles or not is not the question.”
“Interesting - but I repeat - the purpose of the Declaration and Constitution is to limit the power of central government with checks and balances; to prevent the historical and inevitable course of monarchs and totalitarian governments of suppressing and strangling the individual. How can you read these documents and suggest that they can, in any way, be compared to the tyrannical, monster of a totalitarian regime of Iran?”
henessey whitney on Apr 18, 2012 at 22:55:46
“Actually, the Constitution was passed with the purpose to strengthen the central government in response to the abject failure of the Articles of Confederation that was in effect for 6 years before the Constitution was adopted.”
zoebear on Mar 19, 2012 at 11:43:41
“I RESPONDED to your post that suggested Progressives would prefer "chucking" the bible and doing "what feels good." This was in response to another posters comment about the Church controlling a women's choice in family planning.
Are you NOW suggesting that I've mistakenly put those two comments together and you are NOT in favor of legislating Biblical values for all citizens whether they are religious or not?
If you are not in favor, then we are having two separate arguments.
If you DO favor legislating Biblical values, then please point to the part of Constitution that allows this?
Otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about.”
“Sounds like less government to me? The intent of the founding documents was to create checks and balances to protect individual freedoms from being abused and eroded by a tyrannical central government. To afford the individual states the powers that were not specifically given to the central government. The Utopian philosophy is an irrational, unrealistic and unworkable system as evidenced by its total failure wherever it has been seriously embraced. And please spare me the "it hasn't been tried here yet" platitude.”
zoebear on Mar 18, 2012 at 14:31:57
“I'm sure that was a response to some comment in your head, but it wasn't related to anything I posted.”
“Where do you live? I moved. --- what has this got to do with the statement that separation means the state shall not impose a religion upon the public? I believe in the religious values of the Founders and the founding documents. We all worship something --- what do you worship?”
“Just a refresher - separation means that the state shall not impose a religion upon the public. Count the number of times God is referenced in the Declaration and the Constitution. Almost half of the signers of the Declaration (24 of 56) held what today would be considered seminary or Bible school degrees. Of the fifty six signers of the Declaration, all but two or three were Christians who read the Bible consistently and lived it. 34 percent of the contents of America's founding documents were direct quotations from the Bible. Do you want more?”
Razpooten on Mar 17, 2012 at 17:46:21
“BTW - which god is referenced, @fogbuster? Was your god or my god?”
Razpooten on Mar 17, 2012 at 02:00:21
““The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
in a letter to John Adams (4/11/1823)”
teeth of the hydra on Mar 17, 2012 at 00:12:10
inform yourself on the difference between theism and deism.
and please do try to find reputable citations (peer reviewed) that show 37% of the constitution, bill of rights and declaration of Independence contain "quotations from the bible". Please.
teeth of the hydra on Mar 17, 2012 at 00:07:50
“You need a history lesson: United States v. Lee, 1982, an employer must pay Social Security and unemployment taxes despite a religious objection; Alamo Foundation v. Secretary of Labor, 1985, religious organizations must pay their workers minimum wages despite a religious protest; Employment Division v. Smith, 1990, laws that apply generally and do not single out religious groups may be upheld even if they intrude on religious practices.”
“Okay, let's "chuck" the Bible and it's religious values. Let's adopt the progressive line and "if it feels good do it" mentality. Will that do it for you?”
zoebear on Mar 21, 2012 at 12:00:46
“I have no idea how you got through 4 years of college if this is any indication of your essay writing.
You are all over the place; there is no central thesis, point, or argument in response to my original position. In fact, in some of your comments you are agreeing with what I'm saying and challenging me at the same time.
Having said that, if this is all about your beliefs on abortion, I'm not biting. This is NOT a forum that lends itself to a genuine, or useful dialogue on the opposing views of something that is not only ethically and legally excruciating, but also has compelling pleas on both sides of the argument that are insuperable to reconcile.
Are we done here?”
Watching rock grow on Mar 18, 2012 at 22:38:29
“Documentation exists since the reign of Ramesses V, of the conservative movements attempts to control the people, keeping progressive movements from moving with the times. Do you know what happened to Egypt after Ramesses V? Look at it today and you will see the net effect of conservative movements.
Explicitly in the first 1,000 years it fell to foreigners, occupation your kind of solution is the same as the High Priests of Amun’s, from Ramesses V time, decision to create a theocracy. That ignored even the rule of Pharaoh and look at what happened. I suppose you call yourself an American too!”
ACIM on Mar 17, 2012 at 20:22:20
“fogbuster, your argument lacks any logic. It is not choice A - "chuck the bible" OR choice B - "if it feels good..." at all... that's merely your interpretation of choice. There are a hundred possible combinations of choice. Please try to learn not to view the world as your visions of black or white - there are a rainbow of colors/choices.1) Not everyone believes in the Bible, nor are we a theocracy, we are a democracy. The only law we follow in the U.S. is the Constitution. 2) "if it feels good".... has millions of interpretations, depending on which person you ask. The real question to ask, legally, is "what is covered under Constitutional law"? And according to the Constitution, women are the equal of men in citizenship. They are required to receive equal protection under the law, and equal health insurance benefits to maintain their health and well being. No Church or Mosque or Temple or governmental laws can supersede the Constitutional rights of women. And currently, abortion is legal in all 50 states in America, as is contraceptive medications and devices. And as long as vasectomies and Viagra are covered by health insurance for men, then the equal should be covered for women.”
zoebear on Mar 17, 2012 at 15:25:59
“Legislating morality makes as much sense as legislating religion.
As a society that values our freedom and attributes "free will" to their citizens, we cannot grant and protect those rights without also accepting their unintended consequences.
Our legal system is a good example. We guarantee the right to a fair trial for every citizen by allowing them legal counsel to defend themselves in a court of law. One of the unintended consequences maybe that the jury does not convict guilty people and guilty people do not pay for their crimes.
The same is true for our freedom to choose where we want to live, who we want to sleep with, and how we want to practice our spiritual life. As a consequence, some people will abuse their freedoms and live reckless lives.
Legislating the unintended consequences of free will also restrict the entire concept that free will is based on. Freedom. If you want more evidence, go research the theocracy of Iran where morality is heavily legislated for everyone and judge for yourself how successful that way of living is for their people.”
Dkbny on Mar 17, 2012 at 08:33:43
“It is your Choice to follow "religious" values. It is my choice to follow my own values, my own sense of right and wrong. I don't need... or want... an institution, be it religion or government, telling me what to do. If you need a book that was put together 16-1700 years ago to tell you how to live your life, once again, that is your choice and I do not want to interfere with it. So please, don't interfere with my ability to make choices.
And when you say religious values you are pointing to one religion. This country is open and accepting to any religion. We are NOT based on any one religion.”
MosesDidItBest on Mar 16, 2012 at 22:18:08
“Beats the hell out of witch hunts, exorcisms of the mentally ill and Sunday armchair postage stamp sized philosophies.”
jimme on Mar 16, 2012 at 19:21:13
“Pretty much, yeah.”
teeth of the hydra on Mar 16, 2012 at 16:49:11
“The progressive line is based on rational reasoning something Thomas Paine wrote about in the "Age of Reason". A philosophy espoused my many of the founding fathers that were DEIST and fervently believed in the separation of Church and State in writing the Constitution. They would be rolling their graves to witness the blurring of the lines between Church and State in today's American. No were not, nor EVER a "Christian Nation".
It is tragic that you are incapable of rational and moral conduct without religion, don't impose your intellectual failure on the rest of us.”
“No Federal Funds pay for abortions offered by PP - you MUST know that at least. The GOP is constantly inspecting PP - if they had EVER found anything the hole wold would have known about it. Those who oppose women's health - like Texas' Perry - like getting rid of PP and all health sevices fo the poor - they only care about fetus' - not actual kids.”
Snoopie141 on Mar 16, 2012 at 20:37:47
“The same "planned parenthood" that you and the rest of the TeaGoppers want to get rid of?? Love how the GOP says women just go to Planned Parenthood and get their birth control but then GOP trys everything their power to get rid of them too. In some states there is one 1-2 Planned Parenthood offices left for the WHOLE state.”
jimme on Mar 16, 2012 at 19:26:05
“3% of what they do is abortions. So we should dismiss the other 97% good they do for women, just to appease a few cretins ?”
“What? Are you suggesting that the government is not strongly promoting abortion and contraception? Are you saying that the government is not suggesting, by their actions and funding, that abortion and contraception is the obvious choice? Here's a thought -- I'll offer you $100.00 to buy groceries, or you can buy them yourself. Nobody is forcing you to choose. Government is not the answer; contrary to your belief.”
giftsthatpurr on Mar 16, 2012 at 15:16:24
“The government does not fund abortion. . . and the uninformed keep equating contraception with abortion; in addition, for those who actually read the article, since we each pay for our own insurance, why is it women should not be allowed to have contraception included in their insurance?”
“All that Rush has comes from advertisers and people who listen to him; his own efforts, not from government programs. Harrison Ford probably has as much money earned by reading someone else's words. Is he a hypocrite too? Get in touch with reality!”
“Am I correct in assuming that you believe "personal responsibility" is an excuse, a concept designed to keep the poor in the "poor house", and a plot to destroy this country? Do you really believe in Utopia? Do you really believe that "freedom and rights" refers to the government controlling everything so that everyone has the same "stuff"?”
teeth of the hydra on Mar 16, 2012 at 15:48:49
“It is the responsible who practice family planning rather than breeding unfettered and entitling themselves to mandated maternity coverage, a cost that is shared by everyone.”
giftsthatpurr on Mar 16, 2012 at 15:11:48
“The use of the term "personal respnsibility has suddenly become a mantra from the Rs (along with "recreational sex" and "convenience.") Dog eat dog - everyone for him/herself is the actuality behind these terms. Community is lost and punishment reigns as priority. Seems caring about someone besides oneself is now called "utopia."”
Kara Kramer on Mar 16, 2012 at 14:38:33
“Fogbuster, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
More worrying is that I don't think you do either.”
boburell on Mar 16, 2012 at 13:58:23
“One is almost never correct when they assume. Q.E.D.”
ekstatik on Mar 16, 2012 at 11:33:40
“Oh, Buster, are you in a fog!”
reader110 on Mar 16, 2012 at 09:58:11
“There's a difference between "controlling" and "offering". Freedom and rights includes the idea that no one is forcing anyone to use contraception, just like no one is forcing anyone to use Viagra.”