“Its also true that there are cycles of cooler and warmer weather, so what happens in say a 10 or 20 year span is very likely nothing more than a temporary up or down spike that has happened many times before.”
DaveMB on Dec 10, 2013 at 01:34:44
“Thermometers of some kind or another have been around since the time of Galileo, yeah that guy, and possibly earlier than that. Centigrade was developed by calibrating your thermometer with melting ice and boiling water, in 1742. That was before America became a country. You can go into libraries in this country and look up what the temperature was today 100 years ago if, the newspapers go back that far. And in some cases newspapers may go back 200 years.
So yeah, we have data of the weather that goes way back. Some scientific techniques allows us to go back thousands of years. If you think that good, peer reviewed, reliable data only goes back 10-20 years, then you just won the "Sarah Palin" award.”
Cougar90210 on Dec 9, 2013 at 23:01:58
“"... very likely .... has happened many times before." Now, that's what I call a bold and definitive statement - HA! I think roughly 98% of the scientific community is in agreement about climate change. Ah, but this is America, and we believe in protecting the rights of the minority - even the rights of a know-nothing minority to continue to spout nonsense. Carry on, MacDuff!”
“Let me help those odds a little, how about the one that made sure people found him by giving us the undisputed Best Selling Book of All Time. How about the one that the archeology matches up with, with updates all the time. How about the one that long ago described what men would be like, toward the end, and it matches us now perfectly. That one is the one that how to have good life here and not the bad, and as well the good eternity, not the bad.”
“Science can't stand competition, and insists on its everchanging findings be taught as facts.”
Ed VanDyke on Dec 8, 2013 at 19:56:13
“As findings! Science is pretty meticulous with the details and the classifications. If something gets lost in translation, that should be taken up with the school board. Maybe they should spend more money on science ;)”
“Can you and science explain to me how the earth came up with such good design, as to look to be made especially for us.
Consider the way the earth recycles and cleans up after us. Water flows down the mountain to rivers, the ocean, soaks into the ground comes out clean in springs & wells. As well some of it evaporates, comes back as rain, snow etc. Air is cleaned through plants, coming back as oxygen. The ground even recycles and cleans itself through plate tectonics. That stuff is not even living, did it evolve for us?
We have oil, coal, minerals all stored away just for us, waiting to be used. All accidental, no that does not make sense when you look at the big picture with all that has been provided for us. The only thing that does, is it was designed by a very good and knowledgeable designer, God.”
“I have personally experienced God's healing, with no doubt about it. It came following prayer, and the manner it which it came proved to me it was from God.
Grasshoppers have baby grasshoppers, transitionals. Mutations are 99.9999% negative, with the host forgetting some information. If evolution were true, we should have a fossil record full of slightly altered individuals all showing up all down through time. Instead we have different species and look the same now as long ago.
What caused the earth to be able to recycle itself so efficiently? That is a non-living, as well as non-thinking entity. Everything from water, to air, to land recycling in a very well designed way, to clean up things for us. Water runs down the mountain, in rivers, to lakes and oceans. It soaks into the ground, comes out clean in springs and wells. Land recycles itself with plate tectonics, etc. Air recycles. Did those non-life entites evolve & learn how to do those things, of course not, they were made with Good Design, by a Designer, made especially for us. Sounds a lot more logical, and like actual answers.”
“I would submit that there is a more selfish worldview than this. One in which an individual finds himself in a world in which he has not seen how he got there, where he came from, or where he goes from this world. This world of which he finds himself, is stocked with everything he needs to live, and even lots of extras to make the experience very pleasant. In every direction in which he looks though, outside his small paradise, are very unhabitable places, he knows he could not survive in. This individual lives it up without a care in the world. He eats to his hearts content, he parties, and then he dies. He would never ask a "why" question, if it was found here, it must be his, it must be free, it must not require anything of him. Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. It so happend that his place that he lived in, had a non-disputed best selling book of all time in it, that he couldn't help but see. And in this book, the maker of this place, tried to communicate with him, but this individual would not so much as even consider him having an existence, much less consider his generosity. A generosity that actually went on to be revealed that it has cost the maker much to provide it. But the man refused to even consider. I find that the height of selfishness.”
Positivist Nullifidian on Dec 6, 2013 at 01:45:55
“And so do I ... don't know anyone fitting this description, and hope that I never do!”
“We have supernatural all the time. Doctors give someone 24 hours to live, the cancer is terminal, it is very obvious. Yet there are many cases where people with no "natural explainable" reason are suddenly well, cancer can't even be found, and the doctor shakes his head in amazement.
Modern biology has never proved men evolving from anything. The fossil record certainly does not bear it up. If that were the case, we would see many cases of intermediate fossils, even Darwin said that. We now have many years since Darwin, still no intermediates.
It seems to me that atheists want there not to be a God so badly, that they ignor the obvious. The "magical" that would have to take place, in which "non-thinking" cells creating everything, doing great feats in logic, complexity, reasoning, working to a very designed good end with purpose, that is much more than its individual parts. Sort of like my throwing a bunch of metal, rubber and paint in the back yard, and expecting to see a car appear from it sometime in the future. It just seems to be a "faith in nothing," to produce everything that I find unacceptable and unbelieveable.”
Casey Braden on Dec 5, 2013 at 15:52:54
“Wow. You know what, I've never though about situations such as your cancer anecdote before. Clearly, the only possible explanation in such an instance is the intervention of the supernatural deity you have chosen to worship. It couldn't be that the doctor misdiagnosed the person the first time...or that there was a mix-up in medical records...or that there was a spontaneous remission (which is well documented, by the way)...or even that this anecdote you reference was either exaggerated or made up completely. Let me be perfectly clear: Even if we don't have an explanation for something, it is irrational to think that your supernatural explanation is valid. Not having an answer for something is not evidence that something supernatural occurred. It just means we don't currently have the answer. Your suggestion is just one big whopping argument from ignorance.
In addition, the fact that you claim there are no transitional fossils showing evolution has occurred demonstrates how little you understand this topic. EVERY fossil is a transitional fossil. If you think that we should be able to find the fabled "crocko-duck," you have no clue how evolution actually works. Not that it matters. It is clear you are perfectly happy with the supernatural answers you have chosen to believe, as opposed to finding the ACTUAL answers.”
“Its going to be a tough sell for thinking people! I see Atheism offering absolutely nothing but hopelessness. It has no explanation for why we are here, where we have been or where we are going.
It insists there is no god, but gives no explanation for all the "design" we see everywhere around us. It offers no meaning for life.
If offers no justice for the evils of the world. Hitlers, murderers, child molestors get off scott free if not caught here on earth.
It offers nothing but hopelessness, a short life here and then nothingness. Nothing you ever did, really mattered. In atheism, people have little value. Just another animal, "dust in the wind," for a very short time. If you were born with disabilities, or in extreme poverty, you just had tough luck, this is all there is, adios! Atheism No future. No hope of eternity. No seeing friends or family after this life EVER AGAIN! What a bummer! No, I will keep the life with the answers, the hope and the future which is found in the Bible.”
David777James on Dec 8, 2013 at 13:51:07
“Simple. You have faith based upon reasoning, which Romans 1 talks about. It tells us how God allows no excuse for any man who rejects Him and His eternal Godhead, because of the numerous visible and invisible things of God that are CLEARLY SEEN by all men.
For instance: "life" itself is one VISIBLE thing of God that can be clearly seen for the awesome thing it is. All non-believing scientists from the beginning of mankind to this day have failed to explain what life is. Numerous failed experiments have even been done in laboratories - futile attempts to cause non-living materials to come to life.
The INVISIBLE mind of man, with its intellect, memories, micro-managed communication and thinking skills, incomprehensible creation skills to build endless unnatural structures and machines. These skills and numerous others are all invisible. And all are impossible without the invisible human mind.
Those are only two examples of how God explicitly communicates absolutes concerning His existence, which no man can successfully deny as being insufficient proof. It is rejection of FURTHER knowledge of God that He condemns, since He promises ALL who seek shall find - and He promises that they shall know the truth, and the truth shall set them free.”
rich89441 on Dec 6, 2013 at 15:38:53
“i've read the book of bible stories, and have found that the best argument i favor of atheism, is the bible!”
timsamon on Dec 5, 2013 at 08:42:16
“metaphor for the sun*”
timsamon on Dec 5, 2013 at 08:41:04
“where do you theist get all this rubbish, science is the design, can explain why we got here, what we dont know and where we are going. this idea that atheism is hopeless, is completely wrong, its faithless which religious always confuse with hope. how dare you to assume that atheism values life less and life has less of a meaning. the knowledge meant of one own mortality allows someone to excerpt the limits of life, to discover ones own meaning. its only in eternity would something be true meaningless, as it can always be changed. . this idea that atheist should take heed from people say the bible is the only way is absurd, most don't know that Jesus was a metaphor sun and the odds your god will be the correct one, out of the 4200 religion.”
“"science has yet to ascertain" is the very reason we cannot depend on science to provide all our answers, and our life here is too short. Sure a live for now, don't worry about anything else is OK for low-functioning animals, but we have intellect, reasoning, and we have to believe there is more to us, for us, and about us. We see very much good design all around us, so of course we ask the why question. We see a world that looks to be designed just for us. The sum of all the things around us looks that way. Extreme beauty in: sunsets, beaches, mountains, weather, snow. All for intellectual enjoyment. The way things are made, fitting to mathematics. Elements, building material all around us, all prepared for us before we arrived, as though it was known we would need it. Accident? No way! It is way to designed, to fitted for us.”
Positivist Nullifidian on Dec 5, 2013 at 01:11:34
““[W]e have to believe there is more to us, for us, and about us.”
“The way things are made … all prepared for us before we arrived, as though it was known we would need it … It is way to [sic] designed, to [sic] fitted for us.”
Here is evidence of the self-centered, egotistical and anthropomorphic philosophy behind religion. Human beings are viewed as the reason for the universe having been “called into existence,” since it was made for us! What’s more, god created us in his “image,” and we are here for his “purpose.” This is twisted! It’s a sick compensation for our own inadequacy! It is the height of egotism—there is no more selfish worldview than this.
There can be no more pitiful and degrading system of belief than to assume that human beings were “placed” in a universe designed just for their benefit, so that they might fall on their knees, bow their heads and engage in a degrading worship of this “supreme being” who “designed” the entire “experiment!” One must fight the urge to regurgitate when reflecting upon this concept!”
“I believe the world was designed for us, not extinct species, and it appears to me to be just that. "Natural forces" tells me nothing. Who, what set up, made "natural forces?" With no explanation to those questions, that looks more akin to a belief in "magic" to me. Our world has a beauty in the design of stuff, and it is amazing how it all looks to work toward and intended end, a place made special for us. A "natural forces" ways of making things without a designer, could not bring about our totality of beauty all around us. Around us we see all elements working well together, where the sum is much more than the parts. Even things like seasons and weather work in harmony and add to the beauty we see. Snowfall, colorful leaves, etc. And we as beings with more intellect than animals can enjoy such things. It takes a designer to think of and do that sort of thing.”
Casey Braden on Dec 5, 2013 at 10:12:11
“The difference between us is that I don't claim to be able to tell you why the laws of our universe work in the ways that they do. I don't claim to have knowledge that I don't actually have. The reason you see everything as the result of some design is because you naturally interpret things according to your deeply held beliefs.
"A "natural forces" ways of making things without a designer, could not bring about our totality of beauty all around us."
Really? How do you know this? In order to say that natural forces couldn't do that, you would need to demonstrate this. For example, do you have any examples of a NON-natural force creating or causing something? That would be a start. We have countless examples of natural forces doing things, and exactly zero examples of supernatural causes.
"And we as beings with more intellect than animals can enjoy such things. It takes a designer to think of and do that sort of thing."
No, it doesn't. Only three criteria are required to increase complexity and performance of organisms over time: selection, mutation, and reproduction. THIS fact has been demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt, and is the cornerstone of modern biology.”
“Truth is truth. If one rules out fundamentalism, and it is the truth one messes out on everything. I find it a lot more logical to believe in Christianity because it matches so well with what we see aound us. It has a fairness to it, that reaches thoughout generations, giving each a fair opportunity. Science falls way short in answering what I believe is the most important stuff. Over time, it has completely reversed itself on issues, so at any given time it connot be completely trusted. People have such complexity, emotions, intelligence, there has to be more meaning to life than, than the short animalistic version science can only offer
Our lifetimes are so short here, we get little from it, and as I see a very well designed world, it does not match up with sciences explanation. We have beauty around us, mountains, sunsets, beaches, waterfalls, starlight at night. We have elements with dependability, laws with stability that we can count on to build from. Everything has been designed to work within a mathematics framework, so the we can understand it. Everything works well together, to make a nice whole for mankind. He can live in relative comfort most of the time. And it all comes together in this place we call earth, as opposed to the harshness of other areas, planets.”
alieninthecaribbean on Dec 5, 2013 at 09:04:01
“Truth is indeed truth and such truths do not require faith, threats, rewards or political strong arming to bring about belief. They are basically self-evident.
I do not see any conflict between science and spirituality because I do not misapply them the way some religious people do. They serve completely different functions.
If a bunch of people were in a desert, science not spirituality will help them navigate a way out and find water and food.
Spirituality will help them keep their spirits up while they do so and everyone will have a slightly different approach to keeping their spirits up.
Evidently the Christian theological explanation for the purpose of life keeps your spirits up and helps you cope with an uncertain and short life.
I do appreciate many of the teachings of Jesus are congruent with other enlightened minds before and after his time who had similar philosophies about love, forgiveness and social justice.
However, after a thorough study of it, I cannot accept the Christian theological explanation as THE answer as it is lacking for me, in several areas, logical, moral and ethical and contains some serious flaws that I simply cannot brush off.
But it's everyone's right to believe as they wish. Beliefs aren't really that important to me, people profess all kinds of them. I look at actions, fruits, results for proof.”
“By well-designed I mean things work well, work well with each other, work towards a good end, work in a logical fashion. As well there is extreme beauty. Mountains, sunsets, beaches, forests, all as if made just for us to enjoy. Things are built within a mathematical structure, that can be understood. Elements can be used to build things. Things are stable, one can count on them to react a certain way and be dependable. The way everything works together brings to bring to a good end. Life can be pleasant much of the time. People and animals are built well to be able to communicate with each other, to be able to work together to do more than individuals would be able to do on their own. They are designed with highly complexity, with emotions, with intelligence. As we look to the harshness of invironment of other places, other planets, we see the place where we live highly structured to our advantage. Chance? Accident? Bodies knowing how and on their own improving on themselves? I sure can't buy that type of thinking. It is much too well designed for that.”
Casey Braden on Dec 4, 2013 at 17:37:03
“I absolutely agree that there is much beauty in the universe. There is also a great deal of ugliness, as well. But complexity does not indicate any sort of design. Just because you may not understand how humans could come about without being designed does not mean that there had to be some designer. Humans and other modern day organisms are adapted to their environment, not the other way around. And since over 99% of the species that have ever lived on this planet are now extinct, I don't really see how you can conclude that our planet is that well designed for THEM. We still have much to learn about the laws of the universe, and the universe itself. However, not knowing the explanation for something does not make it rational to posit a supernatural explanation. That which can explain anything (magic/God) really explains nothing.”
“I have an eternal future, of which life here is only a fraction. If I found out that this life here was all there was, the perfect word would absolutely be "hopelessness." I base my future on (what I see around me in this world and universe) matching up with the Christian God's explantion for everything, (and yes being passed down through time to the generations.)
You're positive there is no God? no meaning for life? Everything appeared out of nothing, and one should trust science and its often changing opinions to bring you truth, and determine his eternity? I agree it might be pleasurable for a time to shuck all thought, responsitility, rules and live for the now with abandoment, but so much is at stake. And this life is so very short. No guarantee of even another minute.
Atheists don't indoctrinate? They have pages and sites of "canned" responses on the internet to Biblical passages. I get the all the time. And the totality of them is somehow supposed to add credibility. I have found they all can be refuted individually, and most easily. So atheists can't think for themselves?
I believe we all come with a built in part that tells us that life does have meaning, we are here for a reason, and it has more bearing than what happens in the few years we spend walking on this patch of earth.”
Dave Burrier on Dec 4, 2013 at 07:41:08
“Why would you want to have an eternal future? What would you do there? At least in Islam, the men get 40 virgins. What has been passed down are supernatural myths, made up stories by men of old. The god, as depicted in the bible is the most heinous fictional character ever. (sorry, but true). Indoctrination usually refers to children who are too young to reason and question. Many, if not most Atheist, such as me, came to be so of our own free will. It is reinforced all the time with appreciating the world around us, reading, reasoning, and for me, being a member of FFRF which is populated by many intelligent people. The meaning of life for me is to be as good a person as I can be, to enjoy what I can, to take care of myself physically and mentally, to help others, and to leave this earth just a tiny bit better than when I got here. If I can do all that, I will go rest in peace.”
“It would seem something a thinking individual would want to know about. As well I think it is built within us, thus it has been an age old question as well.”
Positivist Nullifidian on Dec 3, 2013 at 23:17:20
“Yes, and most of us have, if we are at all curious about the universe. But asking “Why are we here?” carries with it an implied “purpose” or “design,” as in, “Why did you do that?” I would avoid the “why” question, and stay on the “how,” which of course, science has yet to ascertain, but we are learning more with each generation.
The question, “Where are we going?” suggests that our existence here on this planet is but a weigh station—a cosmic waiting room—with the possibility of a “more pleasant” destination ahead. This is probably one of the most limiting of beliefs, as it diminishes this life, in favor of the next, or, just as bad, makes our existence here as some sort of a contest, with the afterlife as a prize to be one if we follow all the instructions from some creed.
Finally, "the meaning to life” is what each of us gives it, not what some deity, or nature, for that matter, assigns to us. What gives you meaning? To learn more about the universe, or about some ancient superstition? To take advantage of others, or to cooperate with and help others? To give into the sum of humanity, or to take from it?”
“Atheism matches reality??? So everything we see around us just magically appeared? Even though it looks so "well designed, and built, and mathematical and all."”
Casey Braden on Dec 4, 2013 at 09:37:15
“Actually, I think the majority of atheists (I can't speak for all of us, obviously) would claim that our current knowledge base suggests that the universe and everything in it was created by natural forces. I'm pretty sure it's the religious who are claiming that it was "magic."
And in order for me to respond to your "well-designed" comment, I need to ask you to explain what you mean by that. What are some examples of things that you think are well designed, and why do you think that?”
“...and atheism, what does it possibly have to offer? besides hopelessness that is? we are quite positive there is no god, and no meaning at all for life? and no future? everything magically appeared out of nothing? and thinking leads people to atheism?
Dave Burrier on Dec 3, 2013 at 21:36:53
“Atheism offers freedom from religion for those that were indoctrinated. Hopelessness,,,about what? We, and you, hope for the best in life, nothing more. Yes we do know that there are no gods. There is no particular meaning for life, only what each person makes of it, good, bad, indifferent, great, mediocre, whatever. Each to his own. Our future is what ever time we have left. No gods, no heaven or hell. One life, live it. Being capable of thinking is a fault of many xtians as they can only resort to scripture and prefab speaking in tongues. Regurgitate what they hear. I'm sure you are familiar with this even if it does not include you. At least you do think and ask questions. Yes everything did appear out of nothing, but it was not magical. I am not a scientist so will pass on this subject. There are more intelligent people who can address this issue if you would care to do the reading.”
“Science so far, gives us no answers for lifes most important questions.
So if we want answers, we must look elsewhere.
Why are we here? Where are we going? What is the meaning to life? If we wait for science to answer these questions, we die before we have the answers. Too late to do us any good.”
alieninthecaribbean on Dec 4, 2013 at 08:10:33
“The questions of 'Why we are here?" Where we are going? What is the meaning to life?" are esoteric questions that can have multiple, layered, individualistic, subjective or ever unfolding answers.
They certainly are not answered by religion, which can only provide reassurances the person can only HOPE are true.
But to know the truth FOR SURE, one must take a completely different route of continuous seeking and testing, learning, revising and growing in knowledge.
Religious fundamentalism squashes that process because you must accept one canned answer to those questions based on faith.”
“"a profound lack of evidence" or a biased refusal to look at the evidence, even though beings and the universe appear created. As in everything fits and works within very "designed" and logical mathematical frameworks. Laws of the universe have been established, giving us things we can count on, to be there and to build on. If fact the universe is so incredibly built, that the more man learns about it, the more he sees how little he actually understands about it. He can't even find its edges. The creation explanation is the only thing that answers life's most important questions telling us where we have been, where we are and where we are going, as well as the meaning of life.
Atheists often accuse Christians of believing in magic, when actually the opposite is true. Atheists' explanation would have us believe everything around us is here by pure magic.”
“"God did it is Not a reasonable answer. Science IS getting VERY close and the answers Are reasonable."
Are you kidding! Science has always left people high and dry. Early science believed in a flat earth. It changes its mind repeatedly over time, and what if you died before the "latest scientific revelation" came out. You died believing the wrong stuff. Science does not have a clue about much of what we see around us. The remarkable way in which the world is made, and meshes with everything else around it. The "design" in everything, the mathematics and reasoning in its construction. The unity of the parts and then the whole, coming together with purpose. All science can say is non-thinking things all by themselves do very creative things, improve themselves (all without thinking) and do it very mathematical. NO WAY! Faith in the illogical! What evidence to that??? The fossils don't support it. It took a powerful all-knowing Intelligent God to create what we see around us. That is a no brainer to me! Plus it leads to nothing but guaranteed hopelessness. No afterlife! No seeing friends or family again EVER! What a bummer!”
TheApeMan on Dec 6, 2013 at 23:23:38
“ugh...you obviously no nothing about science.
I enjoy life. This ONE life.
Why are you living in this life, when it's Soooo much better in the afterlife?
If God is all knowing, there's no such thing as "free-will" that you religious people always use as an excuse to why god does nothing when evil is being done.
What created god? (if the universe has to have a creator, why doesn't god?)”
I find it interesting they can be so certain, and feel able to persuade others. They cannot make the case that atheism is more appealing, by what it offers. It does not offer much. Sure, I can see that not having to answer for any behavior would have some appeal, but on the other hand, no justice, life with little meaning or value. Might wins out with no consequences.
I think many who now turn to atheism, do so little thought. It is easy to go to the atheists sites on the internet and look at the volume of "problems" listed with believe in God. As if the "volume' of what has been put together somehow proves there is no God. As I have dealt with atheists, I have found that most give "canned" reasons of ("Biblical contradictions etc") for disbelief in God, which are easily eliminated with a basic knowledge of the Bible, and early culture.
To me the thought of life totally coming to an end at our death on this earth is huge! What a waste if this is all there is. The complexity of humanity, relationships, family ties, knowledge gained. And no hope for those who did not have it so well. Just luck of the draw, and some did not fare so well. I would have much rather not ever had a life on earth, than to have it, and have it mean so little, to have such little value, and be so short.”
Vagabound on Nov 24, 2013 at 10:42:50
“Well said. atheists, generally, not universally, are pretty shallow thinkers IMO, they don't challenge themselves like they challenge the religious. And you are right in terms of canned arguments... I mean, it never occurs to them that these challenges have been around for millenia and have been posed by people much more thoughtful and erudite than they. There is nothing new to the challenges and they have been answered to the satisfaction of Christians for centuries.”
“I think most atheists deal with extreme frustration, and the only way to vent is to attack Christians. I am amazed at all the time many put into debunking Christians. What a waste of precious time if all we have is a lifetime on earth, and nothing else. Many of them I deal with just give "canned" answers from their web sites, and it is hard to get them to think for themselves. I can't imagine the hopelessness that must have. No life after death, no seeing family or friends EVER AGAIN after this life, NEVER! No justice for the Hitlers, child molestors, & other monsters.
Atheism does not match everything else we see around us. Things are well made. Everything is made very complex and orderly, mathematically, and works well with everything else. And yet atheists deny the logical around them. They waste their fleeting time trying to fight against a God that has put a lot of effort into making good things and a future for them. And they do this all for basically nothing, because even if they were right, they die into nothingness. And when they come to realize the truth, shortly after death, an eternity of judgement awaits them. How sad.”
Vagabound on Nov 23, 2013 at 15:11:15
“I agree, generally.. Many atheists seem obsessed with railing against belief. I think this is psychological. I find that religious people are *much* more open minded. I have never had a religious friend who did not struggle with their faith. Atheists are generally very certain in theirs, even though it poses many troubling issues and philosophical challenges.”