“Our kids have changed public schools and gone out of district, and it hasn't been any better. This behavior toward nonmembers is a constant here. I've spent my life forgiving, trying to give people a fair shot, and then it happens again. I think this is a problem that should be acknowledged.”
“No, I am not lumping in all Mormons everywhere and don't fear all Mormons. But I have to say, you really need to be here and live it to see it. I've watched a change in the culture of Mormon parents since I grew up, and if anything, that culture has become more fearful. I've seen it in my family members. It involves seeing the outside world as a threat, a real danger, that exposures to children and the media and everything about the world outside of the Mormon perspective here is very dangerous and bad. I've watched parents use this perspective to see nonmembers through a dark lens, as a potential problem, a source of more "bad", willing participants in an outside perspective Mormon parents don't agree with. Good parents are treated as a threat, good kids are treated as unworthy of attention or consideration. Innocent kids. I feel, if anyone is being lumped into one group and feared, it is us.”
“I don't want to talk politics, so I'm staying away from Obama. Hope that's ok. I'm not here to say one candidate should win and another shouldn't. Just to talk about our experiences...
I'm not trying to lump everyone in, I just want to see change, so my kids can have a better life here, so we don't have to move away from home just to get a fair shot. That is what I want. I would like to educate people on what's going on and ask them to stand up and change it.”
“Hi again Tea4One
Respectfully, these are not choice individuals. I am not trying to lump everyone in, but my entire neighborhood ganged up on us - everybody, they really did. Salt Lake has been been better in that there is more diversity & so more chance for us to make friends. But you should see how my kids are treated, I wish you could...the sad thing is, nobody wants to change it. Family after family will not send their kids to play because we aren't LDS. We are good parents, protective of our kids & friendly. The greater majority of Mormon moms won't allow their kids to be friends with ours. They treat my kids like garbage or look at us with detached pity. The Mormon moms hang together and act like they're fine with it. We can't go the principal, he's very in with the moms & can't do anything anyway. The choice folks are the very few who step away and say "hi" and talk to me or my kids, but they act like it's a dangerous act to the group. The moms are class parents & PTA members, regular volunteers, the ones who control everything about the social life of the kids.”
I am a city resident and can assure you I am not a herd animal. I have spent my life being a black sheep and am proud to be standing up for what I believe in. You seem very confident and educated, but I would hope you'd be able to listen to people who have a different POV. You have to be on the other side of the fence to really understand a lot of what is happening here, and to truly empathize or understand when you have never walked in somebody else's shoes requires a whole lot of listening and an open mind.”
This is not just small town thinking. I have spent almost 20 years in the Salt Lake City area and have witnessed the exact same thing here in the Mormon capital.
I don't appreciate you calling people liars here. I have come here over legitimate concerns which are TRUE. It's not kind to simply brush people off, give people a chance to speak as you would have them hear you out.”
But you have to first prove the majority of LDS people ARE "regular", as you say. I'm not saying YOU as a person aren't, but while people like myself and my children are being ostracized and treated as damned simply because we aren't members, the Mormon Church has some rethinking to do before being considered "mainstream" by the country. If progressive Mormons are willing to admit this has happened and still happens all the time, I would hope they'd agree that having the election fall through for a Mormon president might actually be good for church members who are so abusive. This would be a good thing for the ideals you state are important to you and might even make tolerance more of a reality here for everyone.”
“Your brother would be very proud of you. Though coming to this message board is difficult sometimes, it is really enlightening and heartwarming to realize how many people are standing up and trying to really change things. You've made a difference here and have a friend in me whenever you need support. :)”
COPESTIR3 on Jan 30, 2012 at 19:28:56
“Thank-you. All we have to do is stand firm andshow how cruel htis religious tradition is. Then they will loose thier power.”
“I like your gracious response here rhondarenee and apologize if my initial comments seemed inflammatory. I am (and was) only trying to get across my point of view and haven't felt that most Mormons really listen or consider seriously how nonMormons -- all kinds of nonMormons -- feel. It has made me very defensive throughout my life.”
COPESTIR3 on Jan 30, 2012 at 18:49:03
“Well, yea. Of course you are defensive. All of us are after experiencing cruelty. And that what they unwittingly do to those who do not embrace their truth. They can be like verbal hammers.”
I am so sorry for the loss of your brother. It amazes me how many good, kind people stand up for what they believe in because they have been personally affected by philosophies and politics, especially in losing someone they love. I hope your brother lived as full a life as he could :) Good for you for coming here on his behalf!!!”
“meposting5: I have enjoyed your comments too. As to the loss of my brother to AIDS, indeed it did change my life. I have dedicated my career to Hospice, and will be a voice for the civil rights for those that have been denied marriage. As you have seen, the Mormon troll can be rather personal and cruel. That is part of the culture that I saw growing up with a Gay brother. It would be easy to turn my back and not be aggravated. The suffering I saw inflicted and continues to be inflicted by this religious tradition must be fought. I feel dedicated to be a voice for a man who lost his.”
I don't think it's true at all that Mormons are the only ones who think the constitution is inspired, the only people in America who respect it? That makes no sense to me. I respect the constitution and consider it the greatest idea in the history of mankind. I am not LDS. And just because a rule or a principle is set doesn't mean people don't break it. You could say the same thing about the laws of the United States, but they are broken every day. The reality is a different thing than the ideal. I'm respectfully challenging you to consider the fact that, like everyone, a lot of Mormons have work to do in the way they see and treat outsiders. (And I wish you the very best in that challenge).”
Tea4one on Jan 31, 2012 at 01:00:20
“mepost: "And just because a rule or a principle is set doesn't mean people don't break it."
Then it appears that you have justified yourself in being fearful of anything from anyone under any circumstances?
Did you have any fears of Barrak Obama back duirng the '08 presidential campaign?”
“I wish that were true. I'm not sure all Members are enlightened about how they treat others are you say. My sister who is LDS actually apologized to me about the horrendous treatment we received, saying "we're not all like that". I can see that is true. But I have run into plenty of people who are and it's a very difficult thing to walk both sides of a line every day of your life. At some point, you have to stand up and say "stop" to those who are doing this. I don't think it's fair to say this hasn't happened to us because fair-minded Mormons wouldn't approve of what others are doing. You seem a kind-hearted person, but there are LDS people who don't live by the same principles as you do. Many, many more people than you think or recognize. The same people who are being kind to you in church because you're LDS and devoted are often out there being nasty to people who aren't, and you may not ever witnessed it, unless you have many friends who live in Utah who are not LDS.”
Tea4one on Jan 31, 2012 at 00:55:42
“mepost: "The same people who are being kind to you in church because you're LDS and devoted are often out there being nasty to people who aren't, and you may not ever witnessed it, unless you have many friends who live in Utah who are not LDS."
I appreciate your perspective...but I have to disagree with your overall observation. I won't doubt what you have experienced in your own neighborhood, but from my perspective, (having myself lived in Utah also once before)...I can say (all things considered)...these are very choice individuals. I will have to abandon the identity that just because I am "Mormon" I couldn't see some "true" reality. Salt Lake City...is certainly not "Mormon-ville" as people outside of Utah continue to assume.
Of interest: You should also know that the Sundance Film Festival founded by Robert Redford (hardly an LDS-conservative society), is in Park City, Utah.”
“Only that the people I live around, the Mormon people here, seem to view it Mormon presidency as a justification for a particular way of life which they have made very dominant here. I only fear it will lead to more dominance and make the religious majority in my particular area feel they have to work less at compromising as their beliefs are recognized as being in the arena of mainstream America.
“For the record, I'm not arguging at the politicians you've listed here have made it an issue, and I don't believe it's kind to publicly run down the inner aspects of someone's religion because it seems strange to you. Nobody likes to be judged by somebody else's standards. I have tried to contain my comments to things have directly affected me in my life, just to have a voice...”
Tea4one on Jan 29, 2012 at 03:19:26
“meposting:"I have tried to contain my comments to things have directly affected me in my life"
ok, so what has been "scary" to you about the prospects of a "Momron" in office? (Mind you, I am not a supporter of Romney either).”
“Hi again Tea4one -- (Addendum to the note below) my apologies for the "one man" statement. It didn't come out like I intended; I was a bit defensive :)”
Tea4one on Jan 27, 2012 at 17:07:31
No reason for apologies...just some perspective. The implication for hating "Mormons", was not the issue either. Your previous remarks just aligned with the multiplicity of unfounded claims against the church by demonstrating "scary" as an issue about a "Mormon" president.
The only victory that it would have for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to have a "Mormon" president, would be to prove to the world that we are indeed regular and sane minded, rather than being labeled by the tripe that is manifest by the opus of this article and the mass of the truly bigoted. And there are plenty of them in this post as one can see.
Perhaps I didn't make my views clear--I DO NOT HATE MORMONS. I have friends who are Mormons and family too. I simply believe that everyone has a right to decide for themselves who they want to be and what they want to do with their lives. THis includes myself, Mormons, Christians as a whole, atheists, Muslims, EVERYBODY. I do have fears over the Mormon church's power in Utah, but I was not trying to use fear tactics to dissuade people. Rather, was I was aiming at letting people know how damaging it is to have the religious majority in any area attempting to step on everybody else.
If you value your own right to freedom of religion, you should be giving that same right to EVERYONE. Have a good day”
“I also left, though was never really "in". My mother wanted me to be accepted by our community and so had me baptised even though I was never a Mormon. My father was agnostic. My husband was in the same position, not a member but on the church's records anyway, never having gone to church at all. His mother had him baptized out of fear and peer pressure. We wrote the LDS Church and asked to be removed from their records, and they said we had to track down our neighborhood bishop who we have never even met or spoke to. It was important to me to have my name removed because the church was sending us propaganda and home teachers and I had just had enough. There are Mormons I respect, but I wanted to be recognized as myself and see if they could handle the idea that I'm a good person. Most people are. The bishop removed our names and told me we need to understand this removes any protection we might have from being damned. Basically, we are no longer baptized so we are "exposed to hellfire". The same has been said to me about my children and my father after he died. I was told "You are all in danger. If you care about your kids, join the Church."”
“Your comments have really affected my thoughts today...Please accept my sincere condolences for the loss of your son. My heart goes out to you and your family. I was just floored by this.
Perhaps the discrimination I've witnessed by Mormons during my lifetime truly is a localized phenomenon in Utah. It breaks my heart to see some of the same discrimination I had to live with now become a reality for my children in the public schools here. We've had many negative experiences within hateful communities and with individuals who've been outright abusive. I do feel threatened and have witnessed a general sense of escalating power for one point of view that does not always teach respect and compromise.
However, I very much respect everything you've said here and I really admire your principles.”
COPESTIR3 on Jan 29, 2012 at 11:39:12
“It is not a localized phenomenon in Utah. It is very evident here in California, I see it every day. And as evidenced by the pro Pro prop 8 campaign.”