“@brotherez -- Your ignorance is totally revealing. I haven't cracked open a Bible ("greatest work of fiction by Man") since high school nearly four decades ago; I don't drink and prefer leaving flags to wave on their poles.
However, I'm a good sport, so I'll humor you with your request for "some national average stats on the subject."
Read the following and learn something (like Congress giving funds to the military that They. Don't. Want.):
"...The House Armed Services Committee passed H.R. 4310, its version of the Fiscal 2013 defense authorization bill, on May 10, providing $554 billion for base national defense activities and $88.5 billion for overseas contingency operations. The committee provided "nearly $4 billion more" than the Pentagon's budget request. Among its provisions, the bill preserves funds for C-27J and C-130 transports that the Air Force wanted to retire, and it retains in service the RQ-4 Global Hawk Block 30 remotely piloted aircraft that the Air Force wanted to place in storage. It also nixes proposed cuts to A-10s and F-16s that were slated for premature divestment prior to the forecasted service-life end of each aircraft..."
Chew on this: Americans throw away more than $100 billion in food each year that could have gone to feed your "starving children."
Hardly, not when 15-25 percent of American children and adolescents are now obese.
You want to feed them? Then stop throwing away the national average of $2,200 in wasted food per family each year.”
webgeek on May 10, 2012 at 17:31:27
“Cheap food is unhealthy food.”
brotherez on May 10, 2012 at 17:04:26
“A child can be obese and still be undernourished. You want to get your panties in a knot? Chew on this: Take a look at how much the military wastes. Study the fat contracts given to those who support the military-industrial complex of this country, then spout off some national average stats on that subject. But I'll bet you're too busy waving your flag, drinking your six pack and wiping the drool off your face with your Bible.”
“@Abigaill Tomsen "There is nothing on the moon, that's why we never went back."
Elements known to be present on the lunar surface include, among others, oxygen, silicon, iron, magnesium, calcium, aluminium, manganese and titanium -- all valuable resources.
Among the more abundant are oxygen, iron and silicon. The oxygen content is estimated at 45%. Neutron spectrometry data from the Lunar Prospector indicate the presence of hydrogen concentrated at the poles.
Combine some of these resources together in various ways and guess what you get? Water, atmosphere and propellant.
"...why try and send people there now?"
For the same reasons why the Pilgrims didn't wait for a Princess Cruise ship to be built, or why Lewis & Clark didn't cool their heels until the Interstate Highway was built or the same reason why the Wright Brothers and Charles Lindbergh didn't hang around until a Boeing 747 or Airbus A380 came along.
You want to try rephasing your sentences again?”
Abigaill Tomsen on Feb 28, 2012 at 20:03:09
“...and comparing the Pilgrim's ocean voyage, Lewis and Clarks trek across the Rockies and the Wright Bros 50 foot leap in the air to travelling millions of miles in space reminds me of the Serenity Prayer.”
Abigaill Tomsen on Feb 28, 2012 at 19:56:25
“The cost of extracting those resources outweighs sending people there to get them, that is one of the reasons we never went back.
Don't forget the Moon lacks magnetic poles to protect humans from the solar wind (radiation poisoning). So we are relegated to live inside lead tanks?
OK, for the sake of argument we collect all those resources and then what? We lack the technology to terraform on a planetary scale. Build a spaceship? Take us where?
Voyager 2 is heading in the general direction of Sirius which it will pass at a distance of three light years 360,000 years from now!!!
By then Sirius will be 16 light years away, not 8.6 as it is today.. so the trip back will be even longer.
We lack the technology to take us "anywhere" in space aside of the uninhabitable inner planets.
And unless we develop greater than light travel (which we are told is not possible), or prove a stable wormhole between galaxies exist, and then prove that humans could survive the trip through one - we are stuck here.
Which brings me right back to my original post - take care of things here instead of wasting it out there.
Yes, Human Beings are an incredible creation. But we are not the 'end-all' of evolution.
There are some things we were never intended on doing.
Let's house the homeless, feed the hungry and stop global warming instead, a much better legacy for our generation.”
“As others have pointed out on another feedback site that I review:
"...It might be worth noting that the conditions Challenger launched under were within the specifications the Space Shuttle was supposed to be able to operate in. The qualification tests of the boosters had NOT been done to fully verify the vehicle met the procurement specs, but senior NASA managers were not alerted to that detail. Senior contractor management may not have been aware of that fact, either. But when the contractors were SPECIFICALLY asked by NASA management in the pre-flight review whether the vehicle was good to go, they very clearly said yes. And for those looking to blame Reagan, he was NOT involved in that review. Did the government WANT to launch? Hell, yes! When you've paid as much as the government had paid for Shuttle development, you WANT it to be able to fly when it's supposed to be able to do so. Were the contractors worried that they would be penalized if they said the vehicle was NOT capable of flying when it supposedly should be? Yes. But please put the blame where it belongs. If you buy a car and ask the dealer if it is able to be driven when it is raining outside and he says "Yes", do you REALLY park it anyway any time it looks like it might rain?"”
500 years ago, these same Americans you claim to be living in poverty would be looked at as Kings and Queens. Even today, those in "poverty" still manage to have TV, computers, cars, access to junk food as well as medical treatment and a K-12 education to raise themselves out of their current position, should they desire to do so.
The cost of space exploration per U.S. taxpaying citizen (about 130 million of them out of a total population of 310 million) is roughly $60 a year or a little more than a dollar a week. That's less than a McDouble and small fries (do the math sometime, you'll figure it out eventually).
What has it provided us? Gee, let's see...a lot of people found employment in the design and engineering of spacecraft and the technology that got them into orbit. It's safe to say those jobs are high-paying and require smart engineers with the kind of skills and jobs we've lost over the decades.
Smart minds are stimulated by discovery, and if we want to remain a key player in the global economy we need high-tech and the jobs in those fields that they produce. We need kids to be inspired. My $60 bucks each year in taxes was well spent -- although it could be better.
I would rather see more engineers, scientists and aerospace technologists than another crYbaby-Generation of burger flippers. What about your $60 and your kid's $60?”
“@onrecess -- The fact that thousands of children might be going to bed hungry tonight is because as a nation, the U.S. population throws away $100 billion worth of food *each year* by simply allowing it to go to waste -- not because of $18.7 billion that's budgeted for NASA.
Spend a little less time "on recess" and more on actual learning...”
onrecess on Jan 6, 2012 at 22:21:32
“You mean like learning that totally unrelated trivia about eating/household habits and getting food to market have absolutely no bearing? I remember my mom saying, "Clean your plate there are kids starving in China." Is that you, mom?
Being insulting WHILE being illogical and clueless reveals the fact you are either twelve or emotionally stunted to a twelve-year-old's level. Get a clue, some manners, and some common sense.
Now, don't forget, "Eat your vegetables, kids are starving in Appalachia." We could mail those leftovers. Postage, packaging, refrigerated transportation, and food inspection are all free- IF we spend a TRILLION on pointless space missions where time is worth so little we can do children's experiments and spend time taking stupid questions from knucleheads.”
“This is why it's called "Flight Test" boys and girls. You *expect* to prang your engineering test article (which this was -- and why it was using landing gear not expected to be used in the final product).
This is so you can learn and made the necessary corrections before moving on to the actual flight test vehicles (which are still being built). CAD/CAM only gets you so far whereas flight test gets you the rest of the way in working out all the bugs.”
“@ThinkCreeps -- In the time it took to read your three sentences the crew fell victim to asphyxiation from smoke inhalation. Once their oxygen hoses were severed by the flash fire (in 100% oxygen pressurized environment), they breathed in toxic gases. Go listen to the voice recording sometime; All three died in under a minute.”
“Less than 400 trees -- which is less than what was originally expected are being removed. Many of the trees in question were invasive species (i.e., not indigenous or "native" to the local region), and some were diseased or near the end of their lives, or were in easement areas subject to removal anyway that damaged sidewalks with their root systems.
They'll be replaced by a 2 to 1 ratio in Inglewood, and 4 to 1 in Los Angeles, according to a recent report on KNBC-4 Los Angeles after the last City Hall hearing on the matter.”
lotus321 on Sep 19, 2012 at 15:08:16
“We shall see. if it is anything like Tony V's one million tree pledge...it will never happen”
“Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way dsgregg...
Let's say you're a thermodynamicist -- the world's greatest expert on heat. You are now asked to build me a better oven and we'll fund all of your efforts and make major investments based solely on your valuable expertise.
Now, you might invent a convection oven or an oven that's more insulated or an oven that permits easier access to its contents. But no matter how much money we give you, you will not invent a microwave oven. That’s because that knowledge and technology came from another place. It came from investments in communications and in radar.
The invention of the microwave oven is traceable to the war effort, not to a thermodynamicist -- just as a heart pump that has kept hundreds of thousands of people alive today is traceable to the space shuttle and not a cardiologist -- just as the latest breakthrough in imaging for breast cancer in women is traceable to the Hubble Space Telescope and not a radiation oncologist.”
“A fairly concise and coherent statement. You are to be commended.
Now, let's see you do any better than what has already been done privately or publicly.
C'mon, we're all waiting...
Don't get me wrong; I'm rooting for companies like SpaceX, Sierra Nevada, Blue Origins, Amarillo Aerospace and others to succeed in bringing the cost of spaceflight down as they all claim they're capable of doing better than the status quo.
It's just that...we've been waiting now for the past 25 years to see them deliver on their promises (I was there in the late 80's when AMROC's SET-1 test fizzled and Conestoga went nowhere after a brief test out of Texas). The shorelines are littered with the carcasses of companies that have tried and failed, so we're due to have a winner ... eventually.”
dsws on May 16, 2012 at 05:25:26
“Nah, I wasn't disagreeing, just quibbling about the definition. Nothing's perfect, so there's sure to be some waste along the way, but I don't think the space program has had an unusual amount compared to other undertakings of similar size. And I too am rooting for SpaceX et al., but without expectations of magical just-becuase-it's-not-government success.”
“(Con't): Then again, if we had built and operated it now with the benefit of the past 40 years of knowledge, technology and experience (and less of the political gamesmanship), it would be a better spacecraft today.
As to your personal failure to understand why I'm "bringing social programs into this argument as...(they) are not relevant," it's simple. People have stated funding for space exploration is nothing more than social welfare for scientists, engineers and aerospace workers. I've simply showing the difference between the two, since welfare recipients haven't produced any benefit or product for society to justify the huge amounts of tax dollars that we shovel their way.
I still contend the total, *nominal* amount of money spent over NASA's entire 54 year history ($490.361 billion, including budget overruns) is less than -- and was better spent -- than the $754 billion blown in one year (2009 alone) for the TARP bailout of the mortgage, banking and automotive industries caused by political "leadership" of Fat Fairy Frank of Massachusetts and some of his (now conveniently retiring from "public service") buddies.
Even in *constant* dollars spent over the past 54 years ($879.424 billion), it's still less than the "Trillions" (plural) the public perceives to have been "wasted" on space -- especially when compared to what we're actually shelling out for one year in defense or social welfare handouts:
“@dsgregg -- Well, considering I'm more than a passing aquaintance of Story (and a couple of dozen more who have personally ridden that "beast with 20,000 tiles"), aren't you being just a bit disingenuous speaking on his behalf?
Here are some other things Story also agrees with since he said it:
On NASA: "I'm massively privileged to be part of the space program, and I never forget to say that."
On Shuttle: "The shuttle did not turn out like we planned...It was massively fragile, difficult to operate and exceedingly dangerous...The downside is the [international] space station needs us, needs a shuttle to service it in a way that nothing else can."
On "Leadership": "I think what the real problem is: Why are we so poor in our vision and so poor in our project management that we come to a point where it's reasonable to phase out the current program and we have no idea what the next one is? Washington has to stop doing that. Washington is in total failure that this has happened. It is Washington's fault and they have to look in the mirror and have to see their failure. It's NASA, Washington, Congress and the administration -- they are in failure."
Sure, we've all known (since before Challenger, as the warning signs were always there, just ignored) the space shuttle turned out to be more of a DC-1 than the DC-3 of space vehicles.”
“@dsgregg -- Wrong. A "waste of money" is when our tax dollars are sunk into something that does not produce any meaningful results -- i.e., "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq and Afghanistan, or any number of educational or social welfare programs that *still* hasn't lifted any of the "down & out" (or so-called "99ers") from their current situation for the past 3-5 generations.
At the very least, the money that has been spent on the engineering (not science -- it was never really about science) developments and achievements of space shuttle and ISS will pay off in the future as the next generation of commercially built vehicles utilize the knowledge and advances in technology that did not even exist prior to 1972 when the Nixon administration signed off on the deal.
And at one-half of one cent of every tax dollar (when compared to 36 to 58 cents or more) for those other previously mentioned programs that keep costing us each and every year, it's still a bargain.”
dsws on May 14, 2012 at 13:30:26
“A waste of money is when money (private or public) is spent on something that could have been achieved more cheaply, or when money is spent on something but something better could have been had for the same amount instead.”
dsgregg on May 9, 2012 at 20:13:56
“@wstrnspaceport - Sorry Charlie. A waste of money is where money is wasted as in the shuttle program. Even Story Musgrave agrees with that and he's one of NASA's people. I'm not sure why you are bringing social programs into this argument as I'm talking about the shuttle program so your comments there are not relevant. Yes there is waste in other areas of federal spending. Government spending should benefit society as a whole and NASA squandered a ton of it on the beast with 20,000 tiles. And I don't care if the money is going to engineering or not. I've seen incredible boondoggles in the defense industry.”
“Let's not leave out research being conducted by the CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) as another valid justification. Are you really that comfortable with having a Super MRSA "bug" breakout here on earth that could decimate the entire population when it could be better contained off planet?
And all cheesy 1970-era British SciFi aside, I'm sure the moon would be a better place for placement of nuclear waste than being buried deep within a mountain in Nevada.”
“Washington -- The following is a statement issued today (1/9/2012) from NASA Administrator Charles Bolden regarding the ownership of early space exploration mementos and artifacts:
"Earlier today, I had a good meeting with former Apollo astronauts Jim Lovell, Gene Cernan, Charlie Duke, Rusty Schweickart and other representatives of former astronauts and agency personnel, where we discussed how to resolve the misunderstandings and ownership questions regarding flight mementos and other artifacts.
"These are American heroes, fellow astronauts, and personal friends who have acted in good faith, and we have committed to work together to find the right policy and legal paths forward to address outstanding ownership questions.
"I believe there have been fundamental misunderstandings and unclear policies regarding items from the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and Skylab programs, and NASA appreciates the position of the astronauts, museums, learning institutions and others who have these historic artifacts in personal and private collections.
"We also appreciate their patience and will explore all policy, legislative and other legal means to resolve these questions expeditiously and clarify ownership of these mementos, and ensure that appropriate artifacts are preserved and available for display to the American people."”