The Latest Obama Distortion: Cult Figure

In today's NYT, Paul Krugman writes about the "bitterness" of the Democratic nomination fight, writing that he feels that the most "venom" comes from the pro-Obama voices. He goes on to say that Obama supporters "want their hero or nobody" and that the "Obama campaign is seems dangerously close to becoming a cult of personality."

Our hero or nobody? A cult of personality? Let's take a moment to deconstruct.

Mrs. Clinton has repeatedly tried to diminish the differences between her and her opponents. This Obama supporter isn't buying it. When it comes to policy proposals, the differences may be small. However, many of us look at these two candidates and see two different people, two different histories, two different approaches to governance. Why do we sense this? Because yes, these two candidates have different personalities. Personality is not just about being the fun guy to have a beer with. It runs deeper. We are not wrong to assess one's personality when assessing a candidate, because one's personality says much about how he or she will do the job.

Obama has an open, humble, flexible sort of brilliance that portends that he will bring amazing knowledge to the Oval Office, but will always remain open to ideas that don't fit in the preconceived framework of what is right and wrong. He does not give the sense that he already knows all there is to know, like she often does. He appears to have a different character--a personality that many of us believe would make him better suited for the presidency. Yet we point this out, and suddenly our concerns are written off as hero worship, the stuff of cults.

Cults. Yes. "Cult of personality" is great phrasing for them, no? If a voter isn't really familiar with the idea, they hear that word "cult" and they're thinking David Koresh. They think: dark, secret, and manipulative. Maybe even sleeper--an above-board way to conjure up all these fears those Muslim-baiting emails did. "Cult of personality" asserts that no *rational* person could rationally choose between Obama and Clinton.

But that's the thing: many of us do. And we first did so when the easy thing would have been to ride the Clinton train. But we chose not to. Not because we think Obama's the messiah--quite the contrary. We think he's a voice of reason, in a time when the presumptive nominee, the one we were told was inevitable, exhibited Bush-lite tendencies, going along with the Iran warmongering, refusing to apologize for her Iraq vote. We watch as every day she changes, constantly micro-calibrating her appeal with only one goal in mind: to win. The changes don't feel like evolution because they feel disconnected from the authentic person inside. There is nothing wrong with fighting hard, or wanting to win. But when it's always tactics above principle, there's a problem.

As Maureen Dowd pointed out last week, I feel that the Clintons and many of their operatives and surrogates have learned the wrong lessons from the 80s and 90s. We can frame issues, and our opponents, without resorting to untruthful distortions. Obama's campaign is not a Jackson campaign. People who criticize Clinton are not automatically Clinton-haters. People who wildly support Obama have not necessarily succumbed to a cult of personality. Many of us support Obama because we trust that he can be competitive without relying on these kinds of distortions. Framing is about focusing the eye. It need not be a lie.

As critical as I've been sometimes of Maureen Dowd's coverage of our presidents and the candidates, I think that she reveals something that is an eternal truth: character matters. How people approach their work, and their life, says something about the outcomes we can expect. We have had a long time now to see Mrs. Clinton in action, and to make our judgments on who would better represent us here and abroad. Don't write off our desires as cultish. Just because Obama's success gives us joy, does not mean our support is not girded by reason.

Comments

[brueso]

Funny thing is, the Clintons were fine with Democrats behaving towards Bill in a 'cult-leader worship" way when we ignored the scandals and the bald-faced lie to the American people - but now that Democrats have found someone newer that they support and Billary's assumption that her campaign was going to be a guaranteed sequel, Clinton loyalists like Krugman talk about "cult" worship.

[Ides]

Excellent post that perfectly encapsulates what we feel. Why is it that Obama is the cult leader but his base consists of the most educated people?


Aren't the most educated people the least likely to be susceptible to traditionalism, to religious appeals, to emotional conversion? Aren't the secularists the guys running around shattering idols?


So where does "cult" come into it? Are people suddenly threatened that they can't defend their choices?

[Roshi98]

The "most educated people?" Gee, if that's not an underhanded way of insulting the vast majority of people in the country who work hard, see very little benefit, and don't have the opportunity to go to college, you might as well call yourself a Republican. How condescending you are!

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat. My grandfather was at Omaha Beach, my father worked odd-jobs for years to put food on the table, my mother had to depend on Medicare to pay for her cancer treatment. All hardworking folks, all trying their best to give me opportunities that they never had.

That's the ethos that drives me. I understand the working class, the truck drivers, construction workers, and service employees. These are the folks Obama does NOT speak to. His blueprint proposes a raft of tax credits which will do nothing to help lower-income Americans. His tax credit of $500 to assist those facing the housing crisis might help those not as close to foreclosure, but does nothing for others already caught 2-3 payments behind. Hardworking, honest people, perhaps not as "educated" as you, but wiser in everyday life than you'll ever be.

Hillary speaks to the workers of this nation, her plans address their needs. You'll see the truth of this in Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.

Don't hope for the best, vote for the best!

Hillary '08

[tomcj]

"Don't hope for the best" is a good motto for Hillary. What we will get from her is timid politics and gridlock.

How about "Vote for Hillary, she deserves to be president damn it!"

And "Chelsea in 2016: she is a damn genius too!"

[PT]

Stereotyping Obama voters as "the most educated" is hilarious. Ever meet a Ph.D, that can't walk and chew gum at the same time; an MBA that can't comprehend a balanced accounting sheet; a J.D. that can't identify a bogus contract even if it consists of four lines? There's one standing on every street in America. So, in essence, the Obama voter has been elevated to a higher echelon in the political playing field versus the average middle-class hard-working,less fortunate American?

Got hope and inspiration? Who are we kidding?

[gulopartisan]

"Education" is a kind of expertise, like science, and America's contempt for education is largely responsible for how we got in this mess. Saying that educated people support Obama doesn't slam anybody, any more than saying scientists support the theory of evolution is a "slam."

My father fought the Germans in France, and he didn't finish high school. I have a Ph.D. and I have a sister with multiple degrees. That doesn't make us better than our parents, but it does make us better prepared to defend our opinions, examine our ideas, and change our minds. They were proud of us, and we of them.

Don't you get it? We aren't going to fight with you?

[deborahe229]

Thank you for putting this into words. I was so offended by Paul Krugman's piece, even more so because I have agreed with him on many topics in the past.

I knew from the beginning of the campaign that I could not and would not support Hillary. Yes, the prospect of a female president is exciting. However, it is impossible to separate the Clintons from the baggage they carry.

Hillary Clinton is a polarizing and divisive figure. She will not heal the country. She will give the election to the Republicans.

I am pleased and excited to support Obama. That does not mean I belong to a cult!

[Jazzylady26]

Obamamaniacs

[preatorius]

Dinner with foreign dignataries is not foreign policy experience. Getting knock around by the press because your husband is unfaithful, and Whitewater is not a test for the presidency.

Obama has more years in office than Ms. Clinton. He is prepared. Obama opposed the war from the biginning, that is why people support him. While others sat by, afraid to challenge the decision to go to war, Obama took a stand against it!

That is why people support him!
We want peace.

[LAJonathan]

Wow, great post. THANK YOU!

[BUSHsurvivor]

People who criticize Clinton are not automatically Clinton-haters.

~~~~~

Dear Stacey, Have you read some of the blogs on HuffBO? Please do so, and then you might change that sentence. Thanks. Have a great day!

[mwpeters]

OK

Some poster's here are Clinton haters.
Some poster's here are Obama haters.
It's internet commenter world what do you expect?

I however, do object to the tactic of stereotyping all or most Obama support as something unreasonable, foolish, or dangerous. And though I do not look forward to a Clinton candidacy, I don't equate support for her with unusual levels of foolishness or personal instability. The real-world experience on both sides, I think, is quite the opposite.

The kind of critique Krugman made of Obama's support equates strong criticism of Senator Clinton with "hate" and strong enthusiasm for Senator Obama with a "cultism". Taken seriously I think the analysis resembles a sophisticated form of trash talking (vs. talking about something more substantive).

I know it's all part of the game for some folks, but it's not all that useful or reasonable. And I don't think its the right game for the Democrat's or the country. It's more a distraction.

[tomcj]

Dear Stacey

You are correct. For 16 years the Clinton's have survived because they attack their enemies. They DO have enemies and SOME of their enemies are evil.

But Bushsurvivor is wrong. The Clinton's brought much of people's dislike of them on themselves. The Clinton's lie. Bill lies about Monica Lewinsky with such anger (remember the famous wagging finger and the denial and the denunciation of "THAT WOMAN!"

How dare she claim Clinton used her for oral relief? And, why wasn't she charged with running off with valuable presidential material when she snuck Bill's DNA out on her dress after he was nice enough to allow her to service him?)

Now cut to 2008, the same anger fromPresident Bill: "GIVE ME A BREAK!" Obama opposed the war just because Obama publicly opposed it at the time and Hilary voted for it? And then President Bill tells us actually he, Bill Clinton was aagainst the war.

The Clinton's supported and voted for the war, but they were REALLY against it! Obama opposed it but Obama was really for it!

See? And now anyone who finds Hillary dull, tired, and tiresome is a hate-monger and cult member.

The Clinton's can only look good when we understand that the meaning of "is" is up to them.

Why Progressives like Hillary is beyond me. She won't compromise with Republicans because she knows better; her Health Care plan is favored by Krugman, which means that it will take an awful lot of convincing of the other side.

But, her lack of passion and skills at oratory are now virtues!

We should elect the candidate who comes with tons of baggage, who cannot lead and doesn't want to!

As Bill might say of breaks, if he wasn't so busy praising GHW Bush, Give us a break from the Clinton's.

I assume that Chelsea desertves to follow Hillary since she will be old enough in 2016 to take over the family business.

[Karoli]

I get so offended by the 'cult' label. It's a way to marginalize any response in politics other than the cynical response. With that said, there are some very enthusiastic supporters, particularly over on his site, who could leave a casual visitor with a sense that their enthusiasm is more of an emotional response than an intellectual one.

And then there are those who are just so deeply anti-Clinton that they would be the 'anti-cult'.

But mostly, there are reasonable people who really do believe this system can work better than it does, that we shouldn't be creating terrorists only to claim them as enemies (consider the Taliban in Afghanistan as an example alongside the Iraqi insurgents), that our elected officials should be accountable to the electorate, and we see a possibility of that in Mr. Obama.

That's not a cult. It's just part of one perspective for choosing a candidate.

[mito21]

Oh heck no, you are not taking the cult label away from us Ron Paul supporters.

[MKWrites2]

I can see what he means. Another friend of mine who voted for Obama wrote me today and said "That's the last vote he's getting from me. He talks unity, yet he uses all these back room tactics." This is 30th person I've talked to in two weeks who feels this way.

Actually, I was an Obama supporter and I got out because of this "cult like" mentality. You can't even make suggestions to some of the supporters in the grassroots organizations- like please don't circulate petitions NOT to seat our delegates in Florida because we will need those 850,000 Hillary supporters down here come November. It's too reminiscent of the 2000 recount, so think of another idea to submit to the DNC -- without someone completely going off on you. I thought this was supposed to be a campaign of unity?

Truthfully, I have seen more of the Obama supporters be hateful and divisive than any of the Hillary supporters I know. There's a group of kids who blog all night, and I mean ALL night on the Hillary web site using some sort of psychological Jujitsu tactics. (I teach "Getting to Yes," so I know it when I see it). It appears to me that these are Obama war room operatives doing this, because NOBODY stays up 24/7 for two weeks straight and blogs, and they all come from like four screen names. Go check it out yourself.

A lot of this comes down from the top. Someone in that campaign is using the kids to do the old fashioned dirty work so the candidate can stay clean. Yet the young folks are convinced this will "change Washington." Maybe it's just that the average supporter is younger and us older folks like to discuss things via email or whatever in depth. The supporters do need to tone it down a notch, or they'll implode and turn off all the folks they need to win over in November to win the general election.

[enoughalready13]

The more people look into Obama, the more they dislike. The more people look into Clinton, the more they are impressed.

Clinton supporters are frustrated because Obama is the style without the substance, whereas Hillary is the substance without the flashy style. So it really comes down to what you prefer ... and Clinton supporters know that in the end we are in desperate need of substance at this time.

[jdm58]

Exactly!

[theuniversal]

"A lot of this comes down from the top. Someone in that campaign is using the kids to do the old fashioned dirty work so the candidate can stay clean."

That's just paranoid and silly. And it's just not true that the hateful comments are mostly coming from the Obama supporters. They come roughly equally from supporters of both candidates. Go through a few discussion boards and start counting them.

[willshirea]

I was an undecided voter until the week before the CA primary. I really wasn't hearing much from Clinton, Edwards or Obama. Not one of them was really "wow-ing" me. But I kept listening... waiting to learn something substantive about their vision of America. Then it happened, "the uniter-divider effect"! Our party, the DEMOCRATS, were becoming divisive over RACE?...could this be?

Inconceiva­ble...peop­le were aligning themselves based on the color of their skin, not necessarily by the content of the candidates character. I was in shock...I just thought we had a better grasp on genuinely wanting a "UNITED" States of America.

I just couldn't support this backward thinking trend, I voted for Hillary.

What a shame...I actually thought the Dems finally had a chance to get back into the White House...but now I'm not sure we deserve it.

[mawrm]

The Florida issue is a complete distortion and Obama has NOTHING to do with it. This is Clinton's problem, not Obama's. First she agreed to disenfranchise Florida's voters then when she wins, she seeks to "undisenfranchise" them. That's completely hypocritical and asking supporters of other candidates to simply stand by idly and accept her trying to change the rules AFTER THE FACT to best suit her is naive at best. We saw this in Nevada already. If she felt FL and MI were being disenfranchised she had ample time to speak up - nearly a year's worth BEFORE the vote. Of course, if there is no campaigning by other candidates, Hillary Clinton almost always wins by default name recognition - it's evident from basic poll data.
About the folks blogging on Hillary site, that is wrong. The Obama campaign does not condone that sort of behavior and if they truly represent Obama, they should know better. There are Clinton posters on the Obama website, however we effectively deal with troublemakers by first ignoring them, then having their posts deleted if they start spamming, and then finally booting them off.
Understand that some of the negative reaction of Obama supporters to the Clinton campaign is earned - you can't go around calling people "young and naive","cult-like" - the very topic of this article,"f­luff-belie­vers following an empty suit", and other insults constantly and expect folks to take that sitting down. I will admit, even I have taken a more negative tone particularly after having to listen to Andrew Young and Bob Johnson's insults on Obama with NO reprimand from the Clinton campaign, the drug smears by Clinton campaign staff, and the last straw was Bill Clinton's Jesse Jackson statement- a HUGE insult. Clinton's whole Florida delegate strategy assaults the American voter's intelligence. The solution is either maintain the ruling as agreed to last year or choose to run the primary race again with all candidates being allowed to campaign, etc.
However I do agree with you - the rhetoric needs to get toned down a bit and I do believe it will happen in time.

[RickO]

Cult? I think not. I support Obama for very clear and pragmatic reasons.

1. He is a brilliant man who inspires me. He does not tell me what I should believe but inspires confidence in our ability to make our world a better place for everyone.

2. The world is watching us. This is a very pivotal time and we have alienated many. Imagine the world's reaction when we, as a country, repudiate the ravages of the last eight years. Obama will be a very popular world leader and that goes a long way to rebuilding our reputation and improving national security.

3. It's pointless to argue the finer details of policy during a campaign. The president doesn't wave a magic wand. He or she must work with a congress of both parties to get things done. Obama is well liked on both sides of the aisle.

4. The president of the United States is the president of all of us, not just of their most ardent supporters. Obama's message is one of inclusion and tolerance. He understands what a democracy is.

5. He's cool. I want a president that's cool. He can walk out of a meeting with our worst enemy and you know they'll say "We hate America, but their president is really cool. Maybe we can work this out." That's no joke.

You want to talk about cults, look at the frikin' GOP and Christian right. Look at the shit they believe. God told them to spread democracy to the middle east (that's what Bush said). What kind of nonsense is that?

[CitizenE]

I voted for Obama in the California primary, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that I do believe the rancor, so much of which albeit stridently misogynist and demogogic, Clinton inspires will be retrograde to getting what needs to be done, done. The slimy, pruruient, hatefilled noise machine, if her husband's presidency is anything to judge by, may well disengender the entire electorate.
That said, Obama's own ad campaign with seated white folks at his feet, waiting on every syllable, Oprah Winfrey's "he's the One," chatter, and the unwillingness of Obama's followers to acknowledge that he like Clinton has his drawbacks are why Krugman's comments ring true for so many. If some Democrats feel that, those in the forefront of Obama's campaign better be ready for the obvious and inevitable Republican ad hominem derision with racist and anti-Islamic undertones on Obama as a false messiah--something far more likely to resonate in the general election than it does in the primaries.

[wmnorton]

To beleive that the noise machine will be quiet if Obama gets the nomination is foolhardy. There will be just as much rancour about Obama as about Hillary. To say that Hillary is the cause and not to realize that it is the right wing nuts is nuts.

[wmnorton]

The real problem with Obama is can he win in November. I don't think so, but maybe he can get enough new voters to the poles to pull it off. I supported John Edwards till he withdrew, and will support whoever gets the nomination. but I'm worried that Obama is a "flip of the coin" as Bill said. Of course Hillary was also a flip of the same coin.

[DoninJoisey]

Look at polls - Obama beats McCain, McCain beats Hillary.

[NC4Obama]

According to RCP over the last 8 polls its
McCain +1.2 between Clinton and McCain
Obama +3.7 between Obama and McCain
Also to note that the trend of the last polls have been going up for Obama.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_clinton-224.html

If Obama can beat Hillary then he dam well can beat McCain. I for one think that Hillary is much more tougher to fight agaisnt then McCain but it seems that the Clinton's do not agree.

[Incredulous]

Cult of personality! What a joke! What was the Clinton era, if not a cult of personality! Who does Krugman think he's kidding? Even a blow job in the oval office didn't deter the cult of personality in the Clinton era. Today, Billy-Bub is still regarded as the leading personality in the Democratic party, as the cult lives on.
And speaking of cults, what the hell are the Neo-Cons? No personality, that's for sure. But a Death Cult, none-the-less. A bunch of bloodthirsty white men sitting around masturbating, and fantasizing of global domination. Check out the spittle on the chins of Bill Kristol and Darth Chaney. They drool at the thought of dominating the world and shooting their big guns. Death to everyone! It's perverse! Neo Cons are a Death Cult.
The fact that Obama has all of the Washington establishment, both Conservative and Clinton, shaking in their boots, is the best part of Obama's meteoric rise. The time for dramatic change is upon us. Viva Obama!

[DoninJoisey]

How true!
It wasn't the blow job, it was the lying to the country and under oath that bothered me, but I guess that depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Don't forget renting out the Lincoln bedroom....

[jdm58]

OK, I was an Edwards supporter, and would have voted for him in our state primary had he remained in the race. I'm not new to voting, politics, or movements. I participated in RFK's movement, Vietnam peace movement, witnessed and survived the fall of the Shah in Iran, and was against the FIRST war in Iraq, as well as the SECOND, out of fear of what Iran is capable of.
That said, I currently support Hillary Clinton, for many reasons, most importantly on her Environmental policy, and her MANDATORY healthcare proposal, without which, we will never be able to move to UNIVERSAL healthcare.
That said, I have a few observations:
"Personality is not just about being the fun guy to have a beer with."
If you are applying this to Hillary, don't bother. No one, from day one of Bill's 1st campaign, ever thought she would be fun at a BBQ. She was held in disdain by many women in the '90's, because she was a smart, working mom, whose opinion was respected by her husband, making many jealous. Articles were written that tried to say her cookies wouldn't be as good as Barbara Bushes. Many working mothers still receive this kind of backstabbing. "Fun to have a beer with" was between Bush and Gore, nicknamed "the Bore".
"He does not give the sense that he already knows all there is to know"
That's the MAIN reason he doesn't have my vote. I want to vote for someone who SHOWS preparedness, and doesn't avoid a vote in the Senate because it might make him look bad (Iran guard vote for one comes to mind, his "present" vote on other issues too)
"If a voter isn't really familiar with the idea, they hear that word "cult" and they're thinking David Koresh."
"Cult" calls to mind Jim Jones, who lead his followers into the jungle, convinced them that their utopia was under attack, and they had no choice but to take their own lives. If Obama doesn't win, and his followers don't vote, they will doom us all.

[jdm58]

As an addendum, I WILL, support Obama, if he wins the candidacy. It would behoove all voters to remember what is at stake, between Republicans and Democrats, and support:
The abolishment of FISA.
The return of the Constitutional balance of powers to the office of the Presidency.
Withdrawal from Iraq sooner than 100 years. Cease ignoring the Geneva Convention and abolish rendition, torture, and human rights violations in Guantanamo.
The possibility of appointing liberal judges who will protect Roe V Wade at the Supreme Court.
Protection of the environment and reversing global warming
Healthcare for all.
NOT VOTING DOOMS US ALL.

[awb]

This is the begining of something really bad for the Obama campaign unless they head it off and fast --
The word "cult" was used because of the baggage it carries -- and the religious overtones and we know where that goes with the Obama haters

The anti Obama people are very subtle about this - but really good at being insidious

I think religion is the new "bait" for the Clinton campaign - they failed miserably at the "race" baiting -- but the religious baiting - that is even trickier --

There is a corresponding Obama doesn't like Israel thing happening at the same time.
Think about it - last week a Clinton supporter on a conference call compared Obama's health plan as worse than the big "H" - today the NY papers vilify Obama since Jim Moran (D-Va) endorsed him and the Jewish community branded Moran as anti semitic years ago -- there are mailers going to to jewish community in Maryland about Obama's lack of support for Israel --

This wedge could work
And as a Jew I really resent it and have a huge PROBLEM with Paul Krugman's complicity in pushing this button -- whether intentional or not--

[DoninJoisey]

The Clintonistas will do anything, say anything to get that third term. Isn't that obvious?

Listen to an Obama speech now, and in a day or two whole phrase appear from Hilly's lips.

The Clintons are the democrat's Romney.

[sarge]

Before Superdupertuesday, they tried to diminish Obama "he's frustrated" (Hillary) "he's like Jesse Jackson" (Bill, implying he's a novelty not to be taken seriously).

That didn't work. So, now they are trying to diminish the Obama supporters as naive stooges caught up in a cult. What's next, labelling us as "morally and intellectually confused"

Obama's speeches are all substance. 100%. The vision is substance, the goals are substance, and the specifics are substance, and he's right on the money in each area.

He's won 5 in a row, soon to be 8 in a row after Maryland, Virginia, and DC.

The Clintonistas are going to throw out all the negative stuff they can to drag him down. The Obama supporters I know will support hillary if she wins the most pledged delegates from primaries and caucuses.

If Obama wins the most states, most votes, and most delegates, then the superdelegates override the will of the people and hand the nomination to Hillary, it will get very ugly. The party will be divided, to say the least. Much fewer Democrats will vote in the general election if Clinton wins in this way, and many more Republicans will vote if Clinton gets the nomination no matter how she gets it.

If Obama wins the popular vote and loses the nomination, John McCain will be our next president.

McCain has NO chance against Obama. If Obama wins the nomination, it's over, PERIOD. The voter ranks will swell with positive votes for Obama, and there will be relatively few anti-Obama votes. Many more Dem's than Repub's will vote in the general election. McCain cannot engergize his conservative base. Only Hillary can do that. McCain's only chance is a Hillary nomination with a divided Democratic party.

[NC4Obama]

What I find strange is at one time we are called a cult that knows nothing of policy but then at the same time we are the Elite latte sipping college educated Liberals. I have seen his policy's i have seen the way he has campaigned and i see his leadership skills thats why i support him. I also do not drink Coffee nor am i rich, but i guess iam shipped off into the crazy college youth vote section. Its really getting annoying how people are getting separated in these types of lines. Who else is tired of hearing stuff like, Oh Obama will do well in this state cuz there is a lot of Latte liberals there and Black people, or oh Clinton has a good chance here because of the large working class and Latino population.

[DoninJoisey]

I agree with your thoughts, and polls say the same thing.

[mmerose]

I am so disappointed in Paul Krugman, whose personality I tend to cult, to coin a phrase. Why do I adore Mr Krugman? Because he makes some earthly sense out of a lot of things. Alas, my god has feet of clay....

As for Obama, talk about a durned if you do, durned if you don't situation. "Democrats need new, inspiring leadership," goes the cry, but those supporting a new, inspiring leader are just groupies....

As a middle-aged feminist who has put a great deal of thought into not supporting Hillary Clinton, Clinton supporters I have tried to converse with have certainly
reacted strongly in a defensive and dismissive way. In fact, I have been reminded of what it was like to quibble about George Bush's disastrous policies and actions in the wrong company, and getting blown off as "just a Bush-hater."