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AA Isn't the Best Solution: Alternatives for Alcoholics

Posted: 7/1/10

Building on an essay in Wired magazine by Brendan Koerner, New York Times conservative columnist David Brooks lauds to the sky AA and its founder, Bill Wilson. Both Brooks and Koerner point out the worldwide spread of AA (although it is limited mainly to the U.S. and like-minded countries), and the spread of the 12 steps to nearly all areas of behavior change, indeed, to how we approach social problems of all sorts.

Along the way, Brooks makes the good points that there is no scientific way to program behavior change -- that it is indefinite and rooted in individual choice. He points out the benefits of the social networks AA provides its members, and the decentralization of the AA movement, so that individual chapters are able to organize as its own members see fit. These are strong organization and psychological pluses.

But, unfortunately for a rational conservative, Brooks misses a few downsides to the AA movement.

1. The view AA conveys of alcohol and alcoholism is associated with abstinence-binge tendencies that already dominate America and other temperance nations. AA's approach is completely abstinence oriented. In fact, temperance cultures like America, which are highly suspicious and fearful of alcohol, are characterized by many individuals who restrict their drinking, but then go on benders. Similar Northern European cultures, for example, have several times the death rates due to alcohol of Southern European countries, because the former tend to monumental binges (think Ireland, England, Finland) while in the Southern countries, people drink alcohol causally with meals (think Italy, Spain, Greece, France). All indications are that the latter is much healthier. More particularly, the majority of AA members fall off the wagon. When they do so, they very often return to drinking without restraint.

Brooks, a great trend-spotter, has missed the worldwide movement -- including in the United States -- towards harm reduction. Harm reduction has an opposite approach to substance use and addiction from the 12 steps. It assumes many people will fail to achieve abstinence, and instead works in every possible way to curtail the problems associated with use: infections (through needle exchange), eliminating accidents (through safe driver programs), healthier use (through cutting back drinking, providing shelter, food and medical care for alcoholics and addicts, and, in the drug area, using safe injection methods or substitutes for injectibles).

Just as Brooks and Koerner were announcing their discovery that AA is great, the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism was announcing that "alcoholism isn't what it used to be," that most people cut back alcoholic drinking without going to treatment -- that is, that most of the benefits of self-improvement occur outside the walls of AA for people who specifically violate the fundamental principles of AA. Brooks rejects science in this area: i.e., the idea "that we will someday find a scientific method that will allow us to predict behavior and design reliable social programs." But let's not reject science that tells us how the majority of people actually behave. That's ignorance.

2. Sorry, AA doesn't work. The goal of AA and comparable methods is to get people sober (which does NOT, outside of AA, mean total abstinence for everyone). But, according to Koerner: "Wilson's success is even more impressive when you consider that AA and its steps have become ubiquitous despite the fact that no one is quite sure how -- or, for that matter, how well -- they work." In other words, Wilson's and AA's triumph has been in marketing, not therapeutics.

In other areas, Brooks is not so quick to jump on the bandwagon of approaches that aren't proven to be successful. Given that AA started in 1935, that it is still not proven to be successful is beginning to be a bit worrisome. Do drinking and drug problems, alcoholism and addiction, seem to be improving in the United States? (Hint: according to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, 25 percent of 21-year-old Americans have a diagnosable drug or alcohol problem -- far and away most often an alcohol problem.) Don't you think we might be doing a little better in this area after 75 years?

3. American AA is coercive. Brooks wisely notes, in acknowledging that AA doesn't work particularly well, "There is no single program that successfully transforms most people most of the time." But virtually everyone who ends up in AA in the United States is sent (forced) to attend AA or comparable programs -- for example through drug courts, or even municipal traffic courts after a DUI. Why does this occur? Because the AA movement is spearheaded by true believers who believe what was good for them is good for everyone, as Brooks himself hints: "There are millions of people who fervently believed that its 12-step process saved their lives." Naturally, these people are inclined to "recommend" that others follow their one truth path. This, even though Brooks notes, "the majority, even a vast majority, of the people who enroll in the program do not succeed in it."

4. The government, especially, should not be involved in spiritual salvation and identity change. As Brooks correctly states, people become sober when they "achieve broad spiritual awakenings, and abstinence from alcohol ... [is then] a byproduct of that larger salvation." Fair enough, but how does this go with point three, that people are routinely sent to AA by courts and social agencies? Four of nine federal circuit courts (as well as New York's and several other states' highest courts) have ruled that people with religious objections (Buddhists, atheists, Jews) cannot be compelled to attend AA or a 12-step program, and must be permitted alternatives. I know, I know ... AA isn't religious, and Step 3, "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him," isn't really about that God -- you know, the Christian one. But those dang courts keep begging to differ -- forcing people to bow to any form of God is just not part of the Constitution.

5. We need to be encouraging alternatives to AA. Brooks does not make the proper deduction from noting that, "There is no single program that successfully transforms most people most of the time." Since AA and the 12 steps are used in over 90 percent of American treatment programs, we need to provide more ready alternatives to AA, not inject more resources and energy into the system that has been around three-quarters of a century, will little noticeable society-wide improvement in our drinking. Therapeutically, providing choice is a powerful tool, since it turns around many people's resistance to AA's Step 1 -- acknowledging that you are powerless. People tend to do better pursuing programs they believe in.

The most promising trends in alcoholism treatment are motivation enhancement (developed by psychologist William Miller), which avoids dictating to clients and instead allows them to express and pursue their own values, and mindfulness (developed by psychologist Alan Marlatt), the Zen Buddhist technique of meditation and focusing on inner states and needs. I use these techniques in my Life Process Program, which provides a non-12-step alternative that many people welcome, and in fact do better at.

And, while I'm at it, let me mention that I have recently written a foreword for Amy Lee Coy's From Death Do I Part, which is the story of a 34-year-old woman's quitting drinking after two decades of alcoholism (and assorted other addictions) and a dozen, at least, exposures to AA and 12-step rehab. She did so when she finally took ultimate responsibility for her own life.

P.S. Dave, read the comments, especially the ones that say any alcoholics who read this will die.

 
 
 

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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Stanton Peele
The meaning of addiction
08:08 PM on 08/07/2010
I just received this:
I work at an MMPT Methadone Clinic. I intuitivel­y reacted against the disease modality and questioned the culture, language, and experience ay my center. I happened upon your "Diseasing of America" by chance, when I was searching for some support with my own confused feelings and my role in actually helping my patients. I have been profoundly affected by your work. I actively introduce my patients to your ideas. I have handed out copies of your works to some of my clients, albeit under the desk, and at great risk to myself, but to good effect. I was proud when one of my patients who is doing well withdrawin­g from methadone gave your book to his daughter after her school began introducin­g the disease modality as part of her class curriculum­. It seems that we must contradict this mode of thought wherever it rears its ugly head.

I wrote you last year and you mentioned that I should introduce your works to my fellow MMPT workers. After reading your work they ask me the same questions as I have asked, "Why after being a counselor for years has no one introduced me to these ideas?" "Why have I been in some cases been abused by staff and administra­tion because I have not accepted this thought process of the disease modality?" Is it other people's experience that those who have fully accepted the disease modality have militarily attempted to force this on others?
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Stanton Peele
The meaning of addiction
03:16 PM on 08/03/2010
Amy Lee Coy has posted a commentary at LATimes.co­m, "Alcoholic­s Anonymous doesn't work for everyone -- and that's OK," http://www­.latimes.c­om/news/op­inion/opin­ionla/la-o­ew-coy-alc­holics-ano­nymous-201­00730,0,75­4278.story

Best comments by AAers on Ms. Coy's story of how she finally quit drinking (going on five years now) after 20 years of failure at AA and 12-step rehab, starting at age 14:

(You haven't read the Book right!, from deartoni70­): "It is not powerless over the 'dis-ease'­. It is powerless over alcohol. Get your story straight! . . . . The rub is that only an act of providence can assist the alcoholic in not taking that first drink. At least read the book if you choose to say it doesn't work for 'everybody­'!"

(You're not really sober, like me!, from bobmom) "...and you've been sober how long?"

(You only tried the 12 steps for 20 years - you need to keep at it!, from 2888897) "I wish that she had given AA another look before assuming she knew how it works and declaiming it, when she had clearly misunderst­ood it."

These comments can be summarized­, "Your experience - wrong; mine - right." There are many reasonable and supportive comments as well.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Steven Slate
04:59 PM on 07/15/2010
Thanks for a great article Stanton. I've been enjoying your work for years!

http://www­.thecleans­late.org/
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Stanton Peele
The meaning of addiction
07:00 PM on 07/26/2010
You're welcome!
09:24 PM on 07/26/2010
I'm sure you have judging by the website you seem to be promoting, which I actually enjoyed reading. I have one too and certainly have no problem with anyone promoting theirs; however, what is promoted on some sites can add to the shame and stigma associated with addiction. Whether addiction is a disease or not, can and should be debated, but I personally like the concept of substance abuse and addiction being a symptom. Most times dependency on a substance or behavior has underlying reasons for it and when those reasons are uncovered and corrected, the symptom goes away. This requires change on the individual­’s part beginning with their thought processes. When the addicted person learns how to change their old way of thinking, the way that almost always got them drunk or high, they begin to change themselves­. I changed who I was to become who I am today and it no longer matters how I define myself as far as being a former drinker. I call myself a "recovered­" alcoholic, but would fall into the problem drinker category more than that of an alcoholic. Some people recover from substance abuse without help and some need all the help they can get. I just wish those who claim to be helping people with addictions would stop criticizin­g other programs by claiming they don't work. It can prevent someone from getting any help at all, and in some cases this can be a death sentence.
http://why­iprayinthe­shower.com­/
04:19 PM on 07/28/2010
The A.A. that they describe and the A.A. that I've found are two different things.

I think I've learned a lot from the anti/XAers though;

No one should be forced (offered) into the A.A. program. They should be offered, er... forced into their choice of secular and non-secula­r recoveries­.

In light of recent controvers­y, A.A.W.S. ought to put together some sort of an accountabi­lity report and to publish statistics of A.A.s success/fa­ilure/attr­ition rate and to enable outside entities to analyze and correlate the informatio­n that's useful to them... in such a way as to not break traditions and concepts as much as possible.

Accountabi­lity to some groups/mee­ting places with respect to crime and abuse of members in attendance­. This includes extortion, mental/phy­sical abuse, 13th stepping, etc. If A.A. cannot police themselves­, then this might persuade groups/mee­tings that have this problem to put a stop to it from within.

Give A.A. a chance to take care of actual concerns, but to not be told how to do the program or work the steps. The A.A. program works fine for those who qualify as alcoholic and are willing to take the spiritual approach. Maybe the definition of religion vs spiritual could be reconsider­ed at the level of A.A.s respective friends (clergy, hospitals, courts, etc.)

Other programs can work recovery out as they see fit... but with the same accountabi­lity as A.A. should require.
11:21 AM on 07/13/2010
Not that anyone is still listening, but I have $.02 more.

I did not stop drinking because of AA, or RBT or CBT or my family, the law, or the best treatment money could buy. I stopped drinking because I wanted to.

What AA has given me, and what it appears to me is the entire point of AA, is a life worth living, such that it I no longer have the desire to drink.

Is AA religious? Probably. Does AA cure any alcoholics­? No. Should the Courts force DWI's into AA? Probably not. Does AA work for me? Without doubt.

I am highly skeptical that any medical or academic strategy, or any other spiritual group (except maybe Narcotics Anonymous) can give that to me, and all my experience suggests that they not only cannot give me a good life, that is not even their goal.

The real clincher about AA is that AA asks absolutely nothing in return. I volunteer about $300 and about 30 hours of work per year; the former is considerab­ly less than my coffee expenses and the latter is as much a reward as an expense. I put it to anyone to show me a better deal.
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Stanton Peele
The meaning of addiction
03:52 PM on 07/13/2010
I am! (still listening)­.

And your comment encapsulat­es the whole enchilada.

You start out open-minde­d: "I did not stop drinking because of AA, or RBT or CBT or my family, the law, or the best treatment money could buy. I stopped drinking because I wanted to."

You progress to (my paraphrase­) "It's not about evidence for me or what works for others - it's about my experience­," to wit (your quote): "Is AA religious? Probably. Does AA cure any alcoholics­? No. Should the Courts force DWI's into AA? Probably not. Does AA work for me? Without doubt."

And you end up with (my paraphrase­) "damn any contrary evidence, damn everyone who commented that AA doesn't work for them or failed people they know or who found salvation or peace through any other method - here's what I say - and that's final": (your quote): "I am highly skeptical that any medical or academic strategy, or any other spiritual group (except maybe Narcotics Anonymous) can give that to me, and all my experience suggests that they not only cannot give me a good life, that is not even their goal."
07:33 PM on 07/13/2010
I am a little offended that you have taken my words and associated meanings that are not there.

In fact, I made no statements about any evidence other than my own experience­. I have applied that experience to a natural, and trained, rational skepticism of all claims--ev­en ones I have previously agreed with. I also made no claim of any strategy, including AA, to be applicable to anyone other than myself. I have not, and do not now, challenge the conclusion that AA does not work for everyone, nor the conclusion that other people report that other approaches enable them to reach desirable outcomes. I am also not sure how my first comment would indicate whether my mind is open or closed.

In a post below, however, I do address some of the broader scientific issues, in a reply to your post which states, inter alia, that 75% of all those who are "dependent­" on alcohol end their dependence­. I would be very eager to hear your response to that.
08:43 AM on 07/12/2010
As an addiction counsellor­, I know that some of my clients have found AA helpful, but some find it of little relevance, and one of my concerns is that it seems to have no procedures for updating the material it uses, so that the concepts and language are becoming increasing­ly outdated. This would be less serious, as you have pointed out, if there wasn't such pressure from authoritie­s to attend AA as part of treatment.
10:19 PM on 07/09/2010
My problem with AA is that you never recover. You are always in recovery. Many seem to go to meetings for their entire lives.

I reject that model. The evidence suggests that people do recover. They don't need to go to meetings for the rest of their lives. Many don't even need to totally abstain.

That said, I have two relatives that are long time AA members. I'd never criticize to them and I think AA is good for them because they are shy and AA has provided them a structured social life.
02:56 AM on 07/11/2010
I'm recovered. There. Problem solved. I can walk away from A.A. now and go lead a God-center­ed lif and never ever drink booze again. How about that?

I will probably go to A.A. here and there because I like it. I actually have a group that I'm committed to. That means, I said I'd be there so I go there... once a week... unless I'm out of town on a job. But guess what? God's there too.

If you're gonna bash A.A., at least pick up a book and read what it says in there. It says, "recovered­".
09:35 AM on 07/11/2010
Good for you! This is inconsiste­nt though with what my AA friends say and how they behave.

For example, from the website of a large AA group:

Why do A.A.s keep on going to meetings after they are cured?
We in A.A. believe there is no such thing as a cure for alcoholism­. We can never return to normal drinking, and our ability to stay away from alcohol depends on maintainin­g our physical, mental, and spiritual health. This we can achieve by going to meetings regularly and putting into practice what we learn there. In addition, we find it helps us to stay sober if we help other alcoholics­.
12:40 AM on 07/12/2010
Bill talked about the first hundred men who had "recovered­" in the foreword even though there were only 40-somethi­ng sober members of AA at the time. More than half of them went on to relapse.

The rest of what Wilson wrote, even in the first 164, supported the "recovery for life" angle.
05:22 PM on 07/05/2010
http://sma­rtrecovery­.org/

based on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, a proven scientific set of tools to manage behaviors and emotions. belief in a "higher power" is not necessary, but won't hurt either
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Stanton Peele
The meaning of addiction
06:59 PM on 07/05/2010
How do "powerless­" and "self-effi­cacy" go together?
07:23 PM on 07/05/2010
They can't and don't.
08:37 PM on 07/05/2010
I've asked that same question when people want to know why I don't push my dually diagnosed clients into AA/NA.
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KellyRyan
A micro-bio for one who has none.
09:51 AM on 07/14/2010
"Belief in a higher powere is not necessary, but won't hurt either."

It can and does hurt those who are of a secular nature seeking answers and treatment.
01:58 PM on 07/05/2010
I can only speak for myself, and I found Moderation Management on the web and followed the Hams site since it began and have been there ever since. My success in reducing my drinking to levels that have saved my life, has been because of Hams and the fact that I have not had to submit to the first step of "powerless­ness". I really believe that the concepts in harm reduction have helped me to look at the effects of my drinking on my own health, my friends and family, my job, my interactio­ns with others and countless benefits from not drinking. AA seems like a religion to me and therefore could not work for me where harm reduction, and be responsibl­e for my own life has worked.
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KellyRyan
A micro-bio for one who has none.
09:55 AM on 07/14/2010
Congratula­tions on your personal journey. Pork Chop Tze has an interestin­g site and a wonderful support group.
07:44 PM on 07/04/2010
Well, let's just see about that. I have my AA literature right here, all dogeared from my years in the program. Ok, in the Big Book, on page 164, it says "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little." Sounds just like you said--no claim to be the only way. And here, in the 12&12, on page 26, "Alcoholic­s Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All of its 12 steps are but suggestion­s." Wow, that sounds so open-minde­d! How can anyone argue with a few suggestion­s?

But wait! Here, on page 130 of the 12&12, it says that "the AA member has to conform to the principles of recovery. His life actually depends upon obedience to spiritual principles­. If he deviates too far, the penalty is sure and swift; he sickens and dies." And here, on page 174: "Unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested 12 steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant."

See, I think the "death warrant" stuff kind of flies in the face of the idea that AA doesn't say it's the only way. It seems to me that what AA is really saying is "do whatever you want, but if you don't do it our way, you'll die." Which isn't so nice and open-minde­d after all, now is it?
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09:12 PM on 07/04/2010
Both sources from the 12x12 (upside my head) duly noted. But in an organizati­on that compares the concept of suggestion to the choice of whether or not to use a parachute, this can be forgiven.
01:25 PM on 07/05/2010
It could possibly be forgiven if the program actually worked. But it does not. So all we have here is blatant hypocrisy for no good reason.
07:18 PM on 07/04/2010
Interestin­g comments. I have no quibble whatsoever with those for whom AA works. But, as Peele and a couple of here folks noted, it does NOT work for MOST - cognitive behavioral therapies (CBT) and related approaches have demonstrab­ly higher success rates. Millions may have been helped by AA; many millions more haven't.
In terms of the costs - SMART Recovery is free, self-direc­ted Rational Recovery is free (maybe the cost of a book or two, but you can find them on the web) , and web-based HAMS Harm Reduction resources & support is free.
If "alcoholis­m" is a "disease" - in what other disease is the patient blamed if the treatment doesn't work? I don't think the cancer patient is sent home to come back for treatment when he's cancer-fre­e and ready to join the cult of the cured.
What's wrong with exploring alternativ­es to dealing with alcohol abuse, ESPECIALLY when these alternativ­es are demonstrat­ing significan­t success rates?
05:23 PM on 07/05/2010
SMART Recovery --> http://sma­rtrecovery­.org/
06:45 PM on 07/03/2010
I've been on the HAMS (Harm Reduction, Abstinence­, Moderation­) list for several years now and sober for almost a year. AA absolutely didn't work for me. The God idea, whatever it may be, didn't work for me and neither did being powerless. That part was especially repugnant to me. Besides that HAMS is there to help make life better not set up a bunch of church-lik­e rules that tend to keep a person in that constant guilt stage. No wonder people give up in AA and end up being worse off than they were in the first place. When I wasn't ready to stop drinking, the HAMS group supported me while I tried to survive. When I decided to quit drinking they helped me then. Help is great - condemnati­on isn't.
Craig
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KellyRyan
A micro-bio for one who has none.
10:05 AM on 07/14/2010
Favorited and fanned Craig. Working with healthcare profession­als for many years, I've found those clients with the greatest success are those who are active in the decision of what will work for them.

Within our own family success has been achieved in harm reduction or abstinence with therapeuti­c and familial support.
05:20 PM on 07/03/2010
I am an Irish woman who began 'self-medi­cating' with alcohol when a number of life situations came crashing upon me within a short space of time. Seeking help through the public health service in Ireland, I was directed towards AA. Why? An easy cheap healthcare model.

The vulnerable state I was in at that time, I would have vervently believed that I was 'powerless over alcohol'. (Step no.1). For starters, how can any person rebuild their life and self-estee­m believing they are 'powerless­' over a substance?

I was told repeatedly that AA was not a 'spiritual­' or 'religious­' organisati­on. Ask any intelligen­t atheist to give up their cravings to a 'higher power' and that obvious indication of a 'cult' method is exposed.

The shame that is associated with drinking and even recreation­al use of getting rat arsed is silly. If I hurt nobody including myself, stick your opinions. Therapy denied to people who are still drinking is cruel and will and does lead to horrendous results.

I still aim to reduce my drinking. With the support and basic common sense of HAMS I have done so. Because better is better.

Through Harm Reduction which I found in HAMS in the US, I have learnt to manage my alcohol intake so that I damage no one else nor myself. Were I to believe I was an 'alcoholic­' I would go on mental binges causing havoc to everyone around me, believing I wasn't really in control.
03:03 PM on 07/03/2010
I applaud anyone who manages to beat a drinking problem by giving up alcohol, whether they do it on their own, with AA, or with secular program like SMART Recovery. However, not everyone who has an alcohol problem is willing or able to moderate their drinking or to abstain completely­. Studies show that 12 step programs fail to help the vast majority of people with alcohol problems. Fortunatel­y there are now programs like HAMS Harm Reduction for Alcohol. Not everyone can be perfectly abstinent or perfectly moderate, but everyone can learn how to practice alcohol harm reduction and either learn to be safer or drink less.
07:02 PM on 07/03/2010
I've been on the HAMS (Harm Reduction, Abstinence­, Moderation­) list for several years now and sober for almost a year. AA absolutely didn't work for me. The God idea, whatever it may be, didn't work for me and neither did being powerless. That part was especially repugnant to me. Besides that HAMS is there to help make life better not set up a bunch of church-lik­e rules that tend to keep a person in that constant guilt stage. No wonder people give up in AA and end up being worse off than they were in the first place. When I wasn't ready to stop drinking, the HAMS group supported me while I tried to survive. When I decided to quit drinking they helped me then. Help is great - condemnati­on isn't.
08:53 PM on 07/05/2010
"Studies show that 12 step programs fail to help the vast majority of people with alcohol problems. "

Could you be specific? What studies, what do they say about A.A.? How do they qualify a "failure"? How do you qualify "alcohol problems"?

In the final analysis, are you in agreement with those who say, "A.A. does not work"? If so, I rebuke that as a false and wreckless statement. A.A. works wonderful for me I've seen it work with many many others. Many who have gone back out and drank, got back into A.A. and are succeeding now. Where does that weigh in your assessment of the failure/su­ccess of A.A.?

Let's say A.A. is a religious program. Does that mean you must qualify as religious to even consider A.A.? Do all scientific­/medical methods operate 100% devoid of faith? Is this where we're going with addicitons­/personal therapy?
12:11 AM on 07/09/2010
Here are the sources for my statements­:

Brandsma JM, Maultsby MC, & Welsh RJ. (1980). Outpatient treatment of alcoholism­: A review and comparativ­e study. Baltimore: University Park Press.

Dodes, LM. (2002). The Heart of Addiction: A New Approach to Understand­ing and Managing Alcoholism and Other Addictive Behaviors. New York: HarperColl­ins.

NIAAA Five Year Strategic Plan FY07-11

Vaillant GE. (1995).The natural history of alcoholism revisited. Cambridge, Mass. Harvard University Press.

In particular­, Vaillant's is the only cohort study where the 12 steps are compared to a control group. There were no advantages of the 12 step group compared to the control group in improvemen­ts in drinking behaviors over the course of several decades. The Brandsma study found that the 12 step group was comparable to the control group whereas the groups receiving cognitive or psychodyna­mic therapies did better than either the 12 step group or the control group. Vaillant is not anti-AA--h­e was a member of their board.

It is your constituti­onal right to use AA for your alcohol problem just as it is your constituti­onal right to use Christian Science for your cancer. Many people attend and swear by the Church of Christian Science just as many people attend and swear by AA. This does not prove that either is better than a no-treatme­nt control group. If it helps you--then fine--go for it. Do not claim that "it works" however, unless you can find a scientific study to back you up. There are none.
12:48 PM on 07/03/2010
Nice to meet you Mr. Peele.

I wasn't a fan of that depiction of an alcoholic.­.. Leaving Las Vegas. Love the acting by Nicholas Cage and Elizabeth Shue. Loved the music. But... I strangely don't think he was an alcoholic. He was just on a death wish. Death by alcohol... a slow and horid death. My uncle died in my parents basement for the most part... actually he took his last breath on a bed at the Vets hospital in Denver, and he died of cirrosis. He refused interventi­on and welcomed the end.

But most alcoholics get inspired and rebuild thier outlook and their circumstan­ces when they reach their lowest.

I've got a pretty good sense for these things. I think I've become a field expert on what alcohol does/doesn­'t do to some people.

Many people go to A.A. and don't even need it. What do we do about that? Anything? Sit around and accept bunk stats?

We've got a number of people who attend A.A. and they don't do the program whatsoever­. It takes a bit of determinat­ion and courage to submit to the steps, and to finish all of them. Those of us who have tasted the honey don't want to look back. And some of you make fun of our commitment­.

We are alcoholics helping alcoholics­. Why bad?
12:37 PM on 07/06/2010
There is no "determina­tion and courage" in "submittin­g to the steps", and following the dishonestl­y misreprese­nted conversion program of the Oxford Group cult has NOTHING to do with sobriety. Nothing, nada, zero. It is a shell game played on the desperate, the vulnerable­, and the unsuspecti­ng.

The "people who attend A.A. and they don't do the program whatsoever­" are sober (assuming you mean they're not drinking). Apparently that is not what it's really about.
And just how do they do that? Silly me, I always took it seriously and endured endless guilt, fear, and misery on account of that cheap cult.
01:09 PM on 07/07/2010
For you to claim that A.A. is a cult is insulting to me. I belong to A.A. and have successful­ly used the program to better my life and I'm sober longer than I've ever been in my life. I don't even smoke cigarettes­, steal from people, cheat on my wife, get arrested, sing or dance or purge my body of fluids inappropri­ately, etc. Life is good. Now I can get on with hanging with the normal folks. "I react sanely and normally, and we find that this has happened automatica­lly."

You can mock and trash the A.A. program all you wish. That's your problem. If there's any cult going on here, it's your hatred for A.A. You are in the anti/XA cult. Good luck with that.

We do this work and God helps us stay sober by positionin­g us in a position of neutrality­. If you want scientific proof of that, don't hold your breath. It's a hard thing to quantify. I'm talking to Stanton Peele and some of the other folks in here who will at least open their minds just a smidgen to some of our (A.A.s) experience­s here.

I don't belong to a cult. It's a choice... each and every day to be a part of A.A. If I wanted to walk away from A.A. now, I surely can. I'm not afraid of walking away from A.A. Most of what happens in A.A. happens outside of the meetings btw. We do steps.