"I've never been so disgusted with the human race," said one commenter. What could he have been reacting to? A piece on slavery? The Crusades? Ongoing gerrymandering efforts in Texas?
No, it was a piece about pigs. My piece about the three pigs I'm raising in a large, wooded pen in my backyard and why I'm going to love them, kill them and eat them.
"Betrayal," it was called. "Treachery." I was creepy, disgusting and dishonest. Horrendous, cruel, and brutal.
What's with the vitriol?
Obviously, not all vegans are name-callers and not all name-callers are vegans. Some vegans and vegetarians weighed in with interesting thoughts and important questions. And some carnivores left sneering, taunting comments about just how delicious bacon is. Most of the viciousness, though, came from vegans defending their worldview.
Can we talk about it?
Seems to me there are three issues at stake: the well-being of people, planet and animals. And there are vegans out there who believe meat-eating is a bloody demonstration that you don't care about those things. But there are lots of non-vegans -- including me -- who agree that all three are critically important, but disagree that veganism is the optimal solution.
Take human health. No question that minimally processed plant foods are the foundation of healthful diet, but a diet might benefit by including animal products for B12 and fish for long-chain omega-3s (to take two examples; there are others). Isn't that something we can have a civil conversation about?
As for the planet, it would certainly be better off if we ate less meat, but if we raised fewer animals and fed them a diet composed partly of food that humans can't eat (like grass) or don't eat (like insects), in a more distributed system so their manure can fertilize soil and their grazing can manage pasture, our planet might very well be better off than it would with an all-plant system. It's hard to grow plants in the absence of animals. I think that's something reasonable people can discuss.
The animals themselves may be the sticking point. If you believe, as a first principle, that animals deserve people-like protection from things like enslavement and killing, that's a philosophical position that can't be argued with nutritional analysis or calories-per-acre data. But even there, we ought to be able to talk. I live with a barnyard's worth of animals, and they give every indication of enjoying life -- a life they get only because I'm willing to enslave and kill them.
For people, a death sentence is the worst thing we can imagine, but that's only because we know what it means. Animals don't understand that life is finite and death ends it, but they certainly know the pleasure of a dustbath or a wallow or a really good snack. Surely weighing the value of that life against the taking of it is something well-meaning, thoughtful people can do.
Vegans and conscientious carnivores shouldn't be enemies. We have a lot of the same concerns, and we can make common cause in opposing factory farming and putting alternatives -- quite literally -- on the table.
So can't we all just get along?
Follow Tamar Haspel on Twitter: www.twitter.com/TamarHaspel
from a vegan standpoint, where do insects enter into the judgment?
Alvarask
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05:38 AM on 06/30/2012
Dogs are carnivores my dear. We tend not to eat carnivores. We eat herbivores primarily.
Why is my reply to this post omitted? Here is my reply which hasn't been included in the conversation:
Fish, pigs, and chickens are not herbivores. They are omnivores.
I think the author needs to go back through some of the food blogs on Huff-Post and read where the predominant Infantile and hate filled comments about lifestyle choice are coming from. I have actually done this exercise the results for anyone else will be very obvious.
I've read extensively in these discussions as well, and I'm afraid your "vegan filter" must have given you a very inaccurate sense of what's in them.. The worst comments from meat-eaters tend to be merely sophomoric. The comments from militant vegans, on the other hand - and most of the vegans commenting in these discussions appear to be pretty damn militant - are downright ins ulting, hate ful, and abu sive. Someone who says "Mmmm, bacon" or "People Eating Tasty Animals" is simply not in the same category as someone who says "You are a self ish, sa dis tic mur derer who enjoys inflicting ter ror and pain on other sentient beings and you don't care about the future of the planet."
Keep in mind, we vegetarians and vegans wince when we encounter unskillful communication from one of ours. However, don't confuse unskillful communication with robust ability to debate and challenge a person regarding their values, beliefs and values.
Don't make your judgement on what others do, but on what you think is right.
Every effort to be healthier and be kinder to the planet should be applauded.
"Vegans and conscientious carnivores shouldn't be enemies. We have a lot of the same concerns."
No, not really, you are actually sound quite hypocritical. You want Vegans to understand you but its clear you haven't made the effort to understand the Vegan lifestyle. You comments reveal the huge disconnect you have in your relation with animals. You are stuck in the me first, my pleasure world where you think humans rule.
Your self serving idea that YOU give animals happiness by giving them a place to live and by then taking their life is such a screwed up perspective only a selfish human could be proud to post.
Your disconnect from the value animals and their right to life for as long as they choose is quite disturbing. Everything you write about here is all about you. Your benefits, your pleasure, your contribution, your generous idea to free animals by killing them.
Your just another human who see animals as a product to use and then snuff out at your convenience.
Stop using the vegan lifestyle as a cover.
Hmmm...where do I begin?
Okay. Let's discuss logic, intent, and denial. For the most part, does the use of an animal to prolong your life apply today? If not, is it truly being selfish to minimize killing/exploiting them whenever possible or trying to avoid products that unnecessarily harm/torture animals elsewhere?
The problem is not raising your own meat, its beleiving humans need meat to survive, which keeps them ordering meat whenever possible as opposed to anything healthy. Why cant we all agree with what the scientist tell us and then eat whatever you want. Just stop making lame excuses and complainng becuase we make suggestions
1.) You're wearing blinders in regards to the comments made by most members of the veg*n crowd.
2.) You have never been a recipient of their vitriol because you don't challenge their rhetoric.
3.) You agree with their rhetoric and therefore consider it to be reasonable.
As for your second paragraph, how can we "agree with what the scientists tell us" when they also disagree?
Wait! Let me guess. You also dont think climate scientist agree about AGW.
Good point. Conceivably, for many people, that could be extremely difficult to reconcile with absolute truthfulness, esp. if you love bacon and throw an adorable “pet’ pig into the equation.
- I guess you don't eat spinach or corn.
You said: "Until you can resolve that hypocrisy you might understand why those of us who value all food from sources that do their best to make it have the best outcome for all things still take issue with what you're doing."
- You mean, if we can't be perfect, anything goes - or what's the use - or let the chips fall where they may?
Meat causes inflammation in humans and thus inflammatory disease and cancers. On a health level it does not make sense. And for the FAO has stated that "livestock production is one of the major causes of the world's most pressing environmental problems, including global warming, land degradation, air and water pollution, and loss of biodiversity." And on an environmental level it is destroying our planet.
It takes a ton of water, food and land to feed animals raised for meat. In an age when 1.1 billion people in the world do not have access to safe drinking water, giving water to billions of animals so that you can eat them is selfish, ignorant and destroying our home. And lets not forget the countless of animals considered pests to ranchers like wolves and coyotes, tigers and lions that are killed each year and the mass extinction that goes with it. You can make all the excuses in the world but the facts are clear. Raising livestock is unsustainable and unhealthy.
Maybe that whole crusade against eating dogs and cats wasn't such a great idea considering we just kill so many of them and people apparently don't believe in getting their animals fixed so the problem continues. If we could eat strays without societal repercussions we get a two for one special :)
Eight of my ducks refused to go into the birdhouse while I was feeding them this evening. Since leaving them outside is not an option because of racoons, coyotes and other nocturnal predators, I herded them into a smaller pen so I could catch them one by one or two by two and put them in the birdhouse. Every duck ran, squawked, flapped their wings and did everything they could to keep from getting caught. And all I wanted to do was put them in a safe place and give them some food. Meanwhile, the ducks that I butchered two weeks ago didn't put much effort into running away, nor did they put up much of a fight once they were caught.
As for the rest of your comment, it makes about as much sense as your first paragraph. I suggest that you take the time to learn about real animals instead of basing your opinions on an animal rights ideology.
I'd really like to hear from a reader who eats meat from the grocery store, has an idea of the suffering entailed in producing that meat, and is at peace with their support of all that horror.
As to the killing come, I have in fact seen them in use. As a vegetarian, I don't know why I am morbidly interested in such things, but there you have it. Chickens are easy to hypnotize, and turning them upside down puts them in a state maybe not so far removed from that. In animal-rights documentaries like Meet Your Meat, they make a point of saying how fragile the chickens legs are and how cruel it is to hang them by those fragile legs which can break. The killing cones do not do that.
I'm gonna be a stick in the mud though and say that what we should be focusing on is breaking down barriers to the market for small scale meat growers. We deserve equal right of access to supply a better product than Cargill's & Tyson's of the world. And that's something most Vegans could care less about because they refuse to accept that farm animals are essential to a healthy & sustainable farm system as a whole.
Most regions can't support large-scale plant production for most or all of the year. It is a rare region that can't support large-scale, pasture-based livestock production.
A simple 'eat less meat and more veggies if you care about the planet or your own health' is not in any way incorrect or suggest infringing on your rights to mess up your own health