My Recollection of Hillary Clinton at the 1995 Camp David Meeting

After spending much of the day doing the sorts of things that normal teacher/scholars do, I returned to the blogosphere to see a raging debate about who said what at the January 1995 meeting convened by the Clintons at Camp David to help them sort through the 1994 election debacle and help him prepare for the 1995 State of the Union Address. I was there (the only female intellectual-scholar invited), and the tenor of the discussion was one of the instances I was referring to last Saturday in my post on TPM (I also attended a late 1993 intellectuals' dinner at the White House, where similar discussions occurred). The early 1995 meeting at Camp David was a many-hours-long seminar featuring about a dozen intellectuals plus a bunch of White House insiders, talking with Bill and Hillary Clinton and Al Gore. It was a fascinating window into how the Clintons were coping with the massive health care debacle and Congressional election defeats of late 1994.

Ben Barber later wrote a 2001 book about this and other Clinton salons with intellectuals, and I remember him taking lots of notes at Camp David -- which obviously lay the basis for his 2001 account. In that book, which many of us read when it came out years ago, he gave vivid and accurate renditions of the discussions I heard and participated in, and I have spoken to other attendees at various Clinton salons who agree on Barber's accuracy. Obviously, contemporaneous notes and a book written years ago, long before today's arguments, are the best possible evidence -- especially since Barber is reportedly now a Hillary Clinton supporter. His previously documented reports are much better evidence of what was said in 1995 than instant "recollections" now scrounged up by the HRC and Obama campaigns.

Barber reports in his 2001 book that Hillary Clinton said "Screw 'em" about southern working class whites who did not support Bill Clinton. Two other scholar-particiants, Alan Wolfe and Harry Boyte, agree she said this. Reported demurrals (and not a clear denial) come from Clinton staffers Bruce Reed and Don Baer, not from the independent intellectuals in attendance. But independent witnesses who keep notes trump employees any day.

I have gone back to my 1995 notes to check my recollections of the event. My notes do not have any exact words, so I am not going to try to corroborate a particular phrase from Hillary Clinton or any other speaker.

But what is clear in both in my memory and my notes is that there was extensive, hard-nosed discussion about why masses of voters did not support Clinton or trust government or base their choices on economic as opposed to what people saw as peripheral life-style concerns. Hillary Clinton was among the most cold-blooded analysts in attendance. She spoke of ordinary voters as if they were a species apart, and showed interest only in the political usefulness of their choices -- usefulness to the Clinton administration, that is.

I vividly remember at the time finding it impressive that Bill Clinton (NOT Hillary Clinton) showed real empathy for the ordinary people whose motives and supposedly misguided choices were under analysis. Ironically, just as Barber reported, Bill Clinton was the one who combined analysis and empathy, much as Obama himself did in his full San Francisco remarks.

I think this whole angle of "gotcha" politics about snippets of speech transposed from one context to another is ridiculous and pathological for democracy in America -- and I cannot fathom why the Clintons or George Stephanopoulos are descending to this dirt, not to mention the guilt-by-association crap. It is particularly despicable of them to criticize Obama for the sort of observation/analysis that was routine in and around the 1990s Clinton White House. And I cannot help but feel there is a psychological edge of pure envy in Bill Clinton's attacks: Obama is empathetic and charismatic as well as smart, just like Bill was back then, in those so much better days!

Over and out. I am going to try to find a way to preserve in amber my better memories and feelings about the Clintons, so as not to lose altogether the sense of admiration I once felt, but can no longer.

Related: Sam Stein: Hillary Clinton On Southern Working Class Whites In 1995: "Screw 'Em"

Comments

[RRH]

How sad you choose to remember a great woman with such contempt. She is warm and devoted to the under dog. Perhaps this is more about how you feel about Clinton as opposed to how she REALLY is. I get so tired of this woman being bashed daily while Obama goes on a lie campaign and no one questions him.
The media bias is what has helped her as in NH. Real people like Hillary Clinton and know her record as a woman devoted to human rights. I also think the bias is from those who are jealous of this strong intelligent woman. While she was a Senator, not a negative word. She runs for president, she's cold. We do not agree with your assessment. It would scare me to have the man who NEVER has given a straight answer to any question he is uncomfortable with. The ABC debate was an eye opener. His anger the following day exposed an elitist who thinks slick talk will work every time, it doesn't anymore!
Shame on you for your disparaging comments. Senator Clinton deserves better then that.

[Pharos]

One can be "cold-blooded" in the sense of trying to put emotion aside for the purpose of accomplishing a goal. Maybe she felt she had to act that way to be taken seriously as a woman. Professor Skocpol, of all people, should understand the difficulties of getting ahead in a male dominated world. This series of attacks by Professor Skocpol seems cold, and heartless, and somewhat traitorous to me, and she seems to completely misunderstand why some people thought Obama's comments were elitist in negative sense of the word.

As a professor of sociology, maybe Dr. Skocpol should write a paper on why victims of sexual discrimination so often refuse to recognize it when it happens to others.

[benalbanach]

This strikes me as being a rather dis-honest piece of writing. We non intellectuals might regard it as a kind of "I love you darling...but " type of letter. And we know what that means.
I do not support Hillary Clinton but I deplore the catty crap that is contained in Skocpol's writing and echoed by many in this comments section.

[mikekev58]

The use of "salon" and the self referenced female intellectu­al/scholar status speak to what the San Francisco remarks were really about: elitism.

We delusional Hillary clinton supporters will continue to support our candidate. And I suppose our delusional votes won't be needed come November 2008, if The Uniter is the nominee.

[bbpenney]

I am sorry but you Clinton supporters are delusional. She is a phony of the worst kind -- and stop ignoring that just because she is a woman. You are being played.

[Stevie57]

Ms. Skocpol,
You are absolutely spot on about Sen. Clinton's ruthlessness, both with regards to the electorate as mere tools, and to the frightening resolve to bend, indeed break, the truth in a desperate last ditch attempt to either win or take the ship down with her. Many of us also identify with the sense of disappointment you feel at the diminution of the Clintons’ character…how could we all have been so bind. There was always evidence of dishonesty, and her steeliness probably contributed to Miss Lewinsky’s appeal; but now her very questionable motivation for wanting to be President and her obvious Republican leanings are a bit of a shock.
The country is in a bad way; I’m not sure that even with the best of intentions Sen. Obama can fix it. But at least I know he is not blinkered to the plight of the many, and he is willing to listen and bend his tremendous will and energy to trying.

[Pharos]

"her steeliness probably contributed to Miss Lewinsky"s appeal;"

The politics of change.

[Nancyann]

"Hillary Clinton was among the most cold-blooded analysts in attendance. She spoke of ordinary voters as if they were a species apart, and showed interest only in the political usefulness of their choices -- usefulness to the Clinton administration, that is."

This shows what she really is, a disingenuous, dishonest, conniving, egocentric, unethical person.

IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING TO WATCH HER CAMPAIGN IMPLODING!!!! IT COULDN'T HAPPEN TO A MORE DISGUSTING PERSON!!!!!

[jaywalker]

And don't forget that she's a pathological liar. Kosovo story 3 times, brought peace to Ireland, her Sybil personality and the list goes on. She's just plain vile. She's friggin dangerous. Now she's got another Gotcha to deal with, MoveOn. I hope they ream her. I wouldn't put it past her to do something to get rid of Obama. Remember the Clinton Body Count list and all the people that "died" who were associated with the Clintons. If you never saw it just Google it. It couldn't all be coincidence.

[coolaid]

I don't know how long MoveOn.org is going to tolerate this without big-time retaliation for this knife-in-the-back approach to an organization that has backed the Clintons during their past hard times. MoveOn.org sent out an email to all its members asking which candidate to back, Clinton or Obama. Based on the votes of its members, they elected to support Obama, pure and simple.
Further, if Hillary were able to now wrist the nomination from Obama, how do you think many of its MoveOn's would feel about backing her in the general election, after being attacked like this. This is a power tool to combat the republican' s 527 swift boaters, not a good thing to do for any democrat.

[westview]

Wow, imagine a president who coldly and clearly analyzes problems and searches out effective solutions. Nah, we sure don't need any of that in the leader of the free world. Emotions should override every issue. I never realized before that our White House problems all these years have been caused by a lack of self help books and tissue dispensers at Camp David and 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.!

[Ajita]

Nice attempt to obfuscate the issue. Clinton "coldly and clearly" analyzed the blue collar voting public, not the issues. There is a big difference. Now go back and look at how she has dealt with the issues and you will see that her every move is designed to speak to some interest of hers and not the interest of the public in general.

[bobpomeroy]

My oh my. Here we are again, rubbing the offense taken at a word. Massaging it as if it has meaning and substance. I'm supporting Obama, I take great offense at some of the Clinton tactics, like the 3 am phone call ad, the constant return to Jerry Wright, and the really inhumane and fundamentally unChristian analysis and "what she would have done and when" caca which came out of her mouth on the subject of another person's religious association. She didn't walk out on Bill, why would she walk out of her flock? She wouldn't because she's a fine person and would be so much a better president than this cockerspaniel in office now. Get off this gotcha' crap. We need no more demoralization; we need hope, badly. That's while I'm voting for Barry (shuddering the thought of ever voting for Barry). I think that is what he brings. Snipers we have enough of, even on this site. Imagine!

[2lib4oh]

Hillary reminds me of my border collie when she needs something constructive to put her energy to good use. When focused, my doggy becomes downright obsessed.
She can obsess over chasing cats or keeping rowdy kids out of the yard.

GIVE HILLARY A JOB FOR GODS SAKE BEFORE SHE DOES SOME DAMAGE TO
HERSELF AND OTHERS!

[citygal]

oh dear, dear dear dear,
now hillary is not just bitch but a doggie bitch.
--------
Theda, I used to admire your writing in Telos-like journals & yr Burowoy book, but this post of yours manages to both breathless and appalling at the same time, kinda like a first year grad student jumping up and down with THE RIGHT ANSWER at a seminar.
This Obama supporter (me) does not appreciate this kind of writing because it seems like an absurdly trivial gotcha, posted on a Hate-Hillary site.

[myskylark]

Where were you when msnbc "journalists" skewered Clinton during their debates? Why do people like you get all exercised when it's Obama on the griddle, but you never cared at all when Clinton was the object of gotcha questions. You're all hypocrites, and I'm sick and tired of the lot of you. Nothing you say or whine can change the obvious truth. Obama gave an excruciatingly poor performance on Wednesday on all questions, including substantive ones.

When he loses the general election I can just hear all you "experts" blame Hillary Clinton. It won't be Clinton's fault, it will be the fault of the Great One himself, He's already showing battle fatigue and the main event hasn't even started.

[JanP]

Obama supporters get bent out of shape because they don't want us to know anything that dims his shinning light.

The questions asked by Stehpanopulous and Gibson were relevant. We should know about Obama's relationship with Ayers on the board of a "charity" that has been associated with Palestinian terrorists. That raises questions about where Obama really stands on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. No matter what side you are on, you should want to know what side Obama is on. By the way, that charitable trust gave money to Obama's church.

This information is at least as relevant as Obama's claim to be a "uniter" not a "divider". Didn't Bush make the same claim?

If I want to know what to expect from a candidate, I will want to know what he has done, who his friends are and what his character is.

[mikekev58]

My emotions are as strong as any of Hillary's supporters, both in positive and negative terms. I feel strongly that she would be the best candidate to defeat John McCain and lead this country to a time when science will trump superstition in domestic policy, and collaboration will replace the gunslinger foreign policy of this administration.

I also feel very angry at the postings of many Obama supporters, and I'll acknowledge that there are Hillary supporters who are also obnoxious.

But in the end, it will be about our country, not about a single person. If we can't come together once the nominee is chosen, we just might face another 8 years of Bushism. I give the GOP 8 years because Michelle Obama has already stated that there will be only one run for the presidency, and I don't think Hillary will enter the fray again either.

We can't afford 8 more years of this disastrous course. Once all of our spleens have been vented, we've got to work together to elect the Democratic nominee.

[Robertsgray]

Theda, Its' time someone exposed Hillary's long-standing attitudes as a top form elitist. She has, according to your observations, exposed her natural self and character, that is certainly NOT Presidential. Thanks for the true picture.

[mjc]

Do you mean that top form elitists only would use such a phrase, "screw them"? Boy, there are a lot of us elitists out there? Obama's character and personality were a lot more on view at the debate than we have seen before, thanks to some quite probing questions, and the view ain't pretty.

[mlewis7]

This article is just a lot of gossip. What kind of "intellectual" would write this? And WHO ARE YOU?
I don't know of a Clinton "1994 election debacle." What are you talking about? Clinton trounced Dole in that election.

[antirepublocrat]

She's talking about the 1994 mid-term Congressional elections. They were indeed a debacle. I guess you don't remember Newt Gingrich and the Contract on America. Remember, NAFTA went into effect in January, 1994, and it was pretty clear to working class Americans that Clinton and the Democrats who ratified that treaty had sold them out. They had no opportunity to vote their economic interests (since Democrat = Republican on economic interests) so they voted on other issues.

By the way, Clinton didn't "trounce" anyone in 1992. He was elected with a minority of the popular vote. Lots of folks voted for Perot, all of them anti-NAFTA, and Clinton and the DLC ignored them, leading to the 1994 route.

[cowgirlblues]

I voted for Perot, Nafta was not an issue in that election-The huge deficit was- a typical republican problem, I was looking for someone who could run the government efficiently, as it turned out-it was bill clinton who got the job done

[PhDiva]

It's not gossip. Gossip is conducted by people who are not primary actors in an event. The author was there. She is giving a first-hand report. Do you even know what you're writing mlewis?

[Pharos]

She giving her interpretation of the events and the Clintons emotions. She could be wrong.

[cowgirlblues]

I love all this off the bathroom wall stuff you get here, I kid you not-I laugh for hours, and then you guys actually get into serious discussions about fairy tales-If it hadn't been Obama it would have been the next "reality" guy, you live in a cyber world where news is what the guy before you said-and I thought MSM was the downfall of the usa-nope

[Oldchef]

Wrong election fool. The 2004 elections were the ones where Gingrich and the Republicans took over the Congress. The presidential election was in 2006. You are certainly no "intellectual".

[presto]

When an "intellectual scholar" exhibits such intellectual dishonesty it makes us happy to just slop around down here in our blue-collar heaven and not have to worry about our brains. Pass the beer. Vote for Hillary.

[sunshineejc]

I cannot believe so many got this timely article wrong!!!!

[presto]

What do you think I didn't get, sunshine? The fact that the author had to reach back 13 years, namedrop mercilessly, and use the word "intellectual" umpty zillion times to find a reason to trash Clinton?

[Nancyann]

IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING TO WATCH HILLARY'S CAMPAIGN IMPLODING!!!!! COULDN'T HAPPEN TO A MORE UNETHICAL PERSON!!!!!!

[kikiva]

Huh, you are attacking Hillary Clinton for something supposedly said over 12 years ago and using that to defend Barack Obama's current comments which are verified and in the public arena.

I suggest you go back to being a scholar and intellectual and leave the facts to the people like me who have to be out there working in a job every day. I'd go back and look at my notes from 1995 but I believe I was hard at work that day and so didn't have time to write any notes down.

[quest44]

Amen Theda !
kikiva I guess you missed the whole point of this article so far be it from me to wake you from your nap !

[Suprshrink]

If you were at that meeting at Camp David, you were obviously being allowed into an arena where freedom of thought and freedom of expression were important to the process. To write about your "recollections" here and now as a reflection of the people you once revered and now despise is hardly an intellectual endeavor. You are someone I would consider opportunistic. When it made you feel like you were important and included you said not a word. Now, that you believe you can make your mark on this campaign, you show your lack of loyalty and untrustworthiness. No matter who wins the White House, I would recommend they never invite you there for a visit.

[northcan]

Sunshineejc; Yes, she is absolutely that cold blooded. Her noted speech at Wellesley is documented....but she seduced her way in to the 'head master's mind' , to give the speech...she was not on the event that day..., as she stood before a well - respected, older black man, academia who was, by the way, guest speaker that day, she stood before him to humiliate his views beyond cruel. It was disgusting. At that age, you can understand the 'bully', bribe, benefit....she gained in populariy. She was a true 'Radical", and she blames Obama for being on a board with a radical. The sixties were very bitter and destructive to anyone peaceful.

When hired as a junior lawyer at Berkley CA, she worked for communists. With 'Watergate scandal', the scandal included her own dishonesty, theft, lying, conspiracy with Nausbaum who ended up being a Clinton WH cabinet member. She is cold blooded, she is not 'worthy' of a Presidency with foreign nations and / or domestic relations. She's as bad as it gets. Qualified....she's intelligent...all the more reason to get her away from any button.

[cowgirlblues]

Someone got into some bad mushrooms...???

[getrealalready]

I remember when Nader was into call backs on mushrooms for consumer protection. He ate the bad mushrooms and pretty much lost it. Once he was a credible force.

[Gronamox]

Theda's self referential parade of the title "Intellectual," is nauseating. What is it Theda? You cannot think of any other job description? What makes you an intellectual? Not your writing-it is pedestrian. Certainly, not your note taking-it is devoid of quotation-truly an amateur's mistake. What is the point of this essay? That Hillary Clinton is cold and calculating because an Intellectual friend at an Intellectual Salon with the Intellectual set wrote down some Intellectualistic notes and decided in his intellect thusly. Everyone has known she is an ice maiden since she opened her mouth at Yale Law. What is a Salon Theda? Surely you can come up with a word that is not a throwback to Gertrude Stein? This is the kind of claptrap that gives women a bad rep. Rachel Maddow is a high-powered intellect whose commentary is brilliant and razor sharp. She is an intellectual. You are a hack, Theda.

[sunshineejc]

Hey Einstein Groanamox look at her resume: Theda Skocpol is the Victor S. Thomas Professor of Government and Sociology and formerly Dean of the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences at Harvard University. She has also served as Director of the Center for American Political Studies at Harvard from 1999 to 2006-dah-If she is not an intellectual, should she check with you before she does her work?

[cowgirlblues]

someone is responsible for the dumbing down of America, perhaps it is the elietest professors...

[sunshineejc]

Theda-Great timely insight! Where have you been hiding?

#1. "Hilary Clinton was among the most cold blooded analysts in attendance." This is as true as the number of pantsuits she wears. She is like a cameleon!!

#2. "Screw em!" referring to Southern working class whites who did not vote for Bill. Evidence of her cold blood. It also gives evidence of misrepresentation in the form of payback if she gets elected. This could be indicative of a serious breach of political power. You better believe she means what she says.

#3. like #2 "Hillary sees ordinary voters in terms of political usefulness to themselves ( the Clinton's. )" This is by far the worst indictment she can have. These add up to be a standard for a self serving deceitful politician. A Hippocrates's' hypocrite. She is obviously unfit to have the power of the Presidency. She will say or do anything to be elected.

Interesting example you bring out about Early Bill and Young Obama. Good point! Because Barrack was a teacher, they are given to observation and analysis. This style with excess words is easy prey for someone who wants to lift words and phrases out of context.

Thanks for your post-I hope it has the necessary legs to be head through other media forms. Very, very relative to the present dilemma.

[LindyK]

Theda,

Great article. For a long time I have felt that the reason Clinton hates Obama so much is because Obama is the man Clinton used to be - and you said it beautifully.

[mjc]

A Hyppocrates' hypocrite???!!! That's a phrase that should go down in some comic's playbook. And talk about trivia and meaningless criticism, PANTSUITS?? Why does that bother you?

[Johnjlws]

The most telling lines, I believe, in this piece are "Clinton was among the most cold-blooded analysts in attendance. She spoke of ordinary voters as if they were a species apart, and showed interest only in the political usefulness of their choices -- usefulness to the Clinton administration, that is."

"As if they were a species apart." That of course is not from Clinton, but it is an accurate analysis of what I sense, what I feel every time I listen to her. Sort of like watching Karl Rove after which most normal people feel they need to shower.

I'm at a loss who to support if Barack HUSSEIN (I like to use this middle name in ALL CAPITALS, like some bloggers do, because it's sooooo scary, like Boo! I'm just all a shiver; aren't you?) Obama does not succeed in becoming the democratic nominee. I guess I'll work real hard at the local level because without Obama our country sure is going to need everyone's "real hard" work.

[cowgirlblues]

Vote for Nadar, he will get us out of the war, emasculate corporations, throw lobbiests out of washington, he has shown no one owns him and is actually a better candidate than Obama, and more likely to do what he says-no one knows better how corrupt corps. are and is unafraid to tackle them, he'll piss everyone off, and we are already pissed off-so its a win-win.I'll vote Nadar over Obama any day

[getrealalready]

You and your Nader concept is old news. You want to fuck up the country even more, keep spewing this rant- and I'm left wing, trust me.