My Recollection of Hillary Clinton at the 1995 Camp David Meeting

After spending much of the day doing the sorts of things that normal teacher/scholars do, I returned to the blogosphere to see a raging debate about who said what at the January 1995 meeting convened by the Clintons at Camp David to help them sort through the 1994 election debacle and help him prepare for the 1995 State of the Union Address. I was there (the only female intellectual-scholar invited), and the tenor of the discussion was one of the instances I was referring to last Saturday in my post on TPM (I also attended a late 1993 intellectuals' dinner at the White House, where similar discussions occurred). The early 1995 meeting at Camp David was a many-hours-long seminar featuring about a dozen intellectuals plus a bunch of White House insiders, talking with Bill and Hillary Clinton and Al Gore. It was a fascinating window into how the Clintons were coping with the massive health care debacle and Congressional election defeats of late 1994.

Ben Barber later wrote a 2001 book about this and other Clinton salons with intellectuals, and I remember him taking lots of notes at Camp David -- which obviously lay the basis for his 2001 account. In that book, which many of us read when it came out years ago, he gave vivid and accurate renditions of the discussions I heard and participated in, and I have spoken to other attendees at various Clinton salons who agree on Barber's accuracy. Obviously, contemporaneous notes and a book written years ago, long before today's arguments, are the best possible evidence -- especially since Barber is reportedly now a Hillary Clinton supporter. His previously documented reports are much better evidence of what was said in 1995 than instant "recollections" now scrounged up by the HRC and Obama campaigns.

Barber reports in his 2001 book that Hillary Clinton said "Screw 'em" about southern working class whites who did not support Bill Clinton. Two other scholar-particiants, Alan Wolfe and Harry Boyte, agree she said this. Reported demurrals (and not a clear denial) come from Clinton staffers Bruce Reed and Don Baer, not from the independent intellectuals in attendance. But independent witnesses who keep notes trump employees any day.

I have gone back to my 1995 notes to check my recollections of the event. My notes do not have any exact words, so I am not going to try to corroborate a particular phrase from Hillary Clinton or any other speaker.

But what is clear in both in my memory and my notes is that there was extensive, hard-nosed discussion about why masses of voters did not support Clinton or trust government or base their choices on economic as opposed to what people saw as peripheral life-style concerns. Hillary Clinton was among the most cold-blooded analysts in attendance. She spoke of ordinary voters as if they were a species apart, and showed interest only in the political usefulness of their choices -- usefulness to the Clinton administration, that is.

I vividly remember at the time finding it impressive that Bill Clinton (NOT Hillary Clinton) showed real empathy for the ordinary people whose motives and supposedly misguided choices were under analysis. Ironically, just as Barber reported, Bill Clinton was the one who combined analysis and empathy, much as Obama himself did in his full San Francisco remarks.

I think this whole angle of "gotcha" politics about snippets of speech transposed from one context to another is ridiculous and pathological for democracy in America -- and I cannot fathom why the Clintons or George Stephanopoulos are descending to this dirt, not to mention the guilt-by-association crap. It is particularly despicable of them to criticize Obama for the sort of observation/analysis that was routine in and around the 1990s Clinton White House. And I cannot help but feel there is a psychological edge of pure envy in Bill Clinton's attacks: Obama is empathetic and charismatic as well as smart, just like Bill was back then, in those so much better days!

Over and out. I am going to try to find a way to preserve in amber my better memories and feelings about the Clintons, so as not to lose altogether the sense of admiration I once felt, but can no longer.

Related: Sam Stein: Hillary Clinton On Southern Working Class Whites In 1995: "Screw 'Em"

Comments

[MoeSart]

As if, Obama gives a damn about you after he gets your vote.

Are you people that naive or are you just stupid?

[SFreeborn]

A cynic is not merely one who reads bitter lessons from the past, he is one who is prematurely disappointed in the future.

- Sidney J. Harris

[gotogal44]

If you read, hopefully you do, you should read his book "Dreams from my father" you would know that not only does he care about the people he has proved it over and over again, going into the poorest of area's to help. That is what a stand up guy does. He apparently proved it in Illinois, or he wouldn't have been voted into office not once but twice. Why don't you just be honest and tell us the truth, you really like McBush, go ahead you will feel so much better being honest, get it off your chest. This article proves once again it isn't about the people for the Clinton's its about the power, the same is true for the McBush group.

[Roshi98]

While at the same time ensuring the poor cannot afford housing because of his connections with Chicago developers (and I'm NOT talking about Rezko).

By the way, what's wrong with power? It's not like Obama would become president only to cede control of the office to a bunch of citizens, right? Power is the name of the game. To suppose that Obama is somehow immune to its influence while suggesting that its Hillary's sole modus is absurd.

It really is black/white (no racial overtones intended) with you people, isn't it? That's why you're not ready to deal with reality and you look to this feel-good, new-age, self-help flim-flam artist. Maybe we should all sit in a big circle and talk about how we feel - that should be enough to solve the housing crisis, global warming, and end the war.

[jbgnyc]

So when Hillary worked to end childhood poverty, or tried valiantly to bring health care to everyone, that was just mean, ol' cynical Hillary???

Who are you people on this post? Does everything devolve into EVIL (Clinton) and SAINTLY (Obama)??? Even when the Clintons are gathering to fight poverty, someone slams Hillary because she coldly remarks that some poor/rural/white voters are never going to embrace the Democratic Party? Hey, maybe that's why the Bill & Hillary were the only Democrats to win the White House in YEARS!!!!!!!! Because her cold assessment was true.

Today the Wall Street Journal said it best (and I NEVER agree with them): "The press is no longer in the tank. .... This isn't bias, so much as belated recognition by the media that maybe it doesn't know (him) as well as it might."

Obama will have to run way to the middle (i.e. become more Clinton-like) to even hope of gaining Red State votes, and I can' wait for the howls of sell out from this site. .

[myskylark]

The first election Obama won was for state senator from a district where to be a Democrat was to be elected.

The second election Obama won was for the U.S. Senate. First, his opponent in the primary had to pull out of the race because of a sex scandal. Obama was the Democratic nominee without challenge. Then, his Republican opponent had to pull out of the race because of a sex scandal. The Republican was then replaced by Alan Keyes, a certifiable nut, and that allowed Obama to win handily.

He spent one year in the U.S. Senate when he decided to run for President. Pathetic!

[tresbienz]

Far from naive, and at least some evidence would suggest not outstandingly stupid...just convinced that if we are to tackle the problems that have the weight to end our country as we know it (and not toward a good end), we must find a will to put aside differences and focus on common ground for the common good. I am old, but I refuse to give up the hope that we can meet and forge concensus over our differences. After all, what has kept this country stitched together for 200 plus years...can't be just willful politicians pulling the strings for their own gain consistently. I believe that, at least in some instances, politicians still do the right thing.

[kato1]

If Bill said what Obama did (and it seems he did express similar sentiments) you'd be defending him all over the place. Who's naive? Who's stupid? Open your eyes, Moe, Hillary isn't the person you want to think she is.

In terms of policy, they are so similar in their positions that we must make our decisions on character, truthfulness, the willingness to admit to mistakes. Hillary has shown she can't be trusted, that she in not believable - she has been caught in too many lies. If one lies about the insignificant, what will they do when it really matters? She, like Bush, will not admit to her mistakes either and that is very revealing.

And character. At every turn she has brought up Rev. Wright, bitterness - Obama could do the same with her lies about Bosnia but that's not who he is. She has called him elite - reinforcing the erroneous idea (put forth successfully by Repubs) that our party is elitist. What's next, accusing him of being a card carrying member of the ACLU? Richard Wolffe has said Obama believes what he says - trying to run a clean campaign, elevating the discussion - that he simply isn't one who goes for the jugular. She, on the other hand, is quite happy and comfortable to dish the dirt. In that way, he has principles that she does not.

None of them are perfect - but HRC is the most flawed of them all.

[rmreddicks]

Clinton or McCain will?

[speakyourmind]

Any of them will?

[MaureenSharkey]

If it were a man behaving in the same way as Hillary, that would be just fine.

Sexism is so ingrained in our culture, we don't even see it.

Like Mark Twain said, "Man is a fool.

And woman, is a damn fool."

[personalpolitical]

Yes, I'm sure if Obama had been reported saying "screw 'em" in reference to working class whites nothing would come of it. I'm sure there would be no media frenzy around that. Are you kidding me?

Oh yeah, and the media virtually IGNORED Hillary saying that.

How's that for sexism?

[SteveFitz]

You either haven't been paying any attention to the barrage Obama has been under for the past week, which knocked Bill's lying about Hillary lying out of the media's collective mind, or perhaps you meant to say if it were a white man.

[Roshi98]

Gosh, one whole week of scrutiny. Try 1000 weeks of the same thing and you might approach understanding what this poster was actually trying to express.

[tresbienz]

Sexism is alive and unwell in America today...no doubt. That said, what HRC faces isn't rampant sexism. It is antipathy against her personally...she failed to get health care passed more than a decade ago(because of inability to compromise),then runs for a second try. She touts 35 years of experience, but when you look behind that claim, what is there is a record of her coasting on Bill's coat tails... I personally am offended that the way the first serious female candidate for US president arrived there clutching the tails of her spouse. We got silly and uncurious George by the coat tail effect...that appears to have turned out rather badly. I remain unconvinced that HRC would be anything but a divisive and contentious leader. We have had enough of that over the past eight years.

[highlighter]

Maybe the Clintons trouble these days is as simple as absolute power corrupting absolutely. Few can ever resist this.

In that vein, i fear for Obama after 8 years. I hope he keeps his head, or at least Michelle dopes so she can slap sense back into him.

[Flynnstone73]

Here is one of this nations problems. We have three very fine people running for the presidency of the United States. They should all be held in some admiration for their desire to serve our nation in what has to be the toughest job in the world. But as in the past few elections and it seems since the advent of the internet, every candidate is drawn and quartered in ways that make everyone except for their most ardent supporters feel in November as if they are voting for the lesser of two evils. It's as if we as a nation are using our candidates to exorcise some national demons. I have no solutions to offer but I think it is disappointing that this is where we have arrived. For myself I have decided to not play this game anymore. I am supporting Obama since I think he offers the best combination of intellegence, philosophical and leadership skills. I also want someone who just might bring a more progressive tone to our Presidency something we haven't seen since FDR.

[rmreddicks]

Who's the third?

[Flynnstone73]

Thanks for making my point.

[myskylark]

You skipped over Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy and Bill Clinton.

You seem to be one of those Obama sujpporters who believe that there's no difference between the GOP presidents and the Democratic presidents.

[thedudeabides]

cold blooded political calculus
we know this from the kroft "standin' by my man" comments
she is the elitist's elitist
it cracks me up that people might not see that

she is epitomable cynicism in motion
the beauty of a hillbilly presidency is that they
would unravel more effectively the poisonous mayhem
caused by the moron w
and for that i would be gleeful

i am at peace with either barack
or hillbilly at this point

beware the hillary dagger however
her temper and ego are legend
ask elizabeth drew or eleanor clift

[PennLawyer]

She is as cold-blooded as Dick Cheney.
" Hillary Clinton was among the most cold-blooded analysts in attendance. She spoke of ordinary voters as if they were a species apart, and showed interest only in the political usefulness of their choices -- usefulness to the Clinton administration, that is."

"Ya know", as HRC prefaces many remarks, "I remember when" (another of her standard phrases),
people liked the idea of electing a woman as president because they thought a woman would be more user-friendly to the ordinary voter and not so swayed by testosterone to start or enlarge or continue wars.

What do we get with HRC? Her latest proposal for the US to set up and operate a military, protective "umbrella" for all the Middle Eastern countries, with HER as the head of it, smacks of megalomania, pure and simple. She could staff it with armed forces comprised of the children and grandchildren of "ordinary voters" and pay for it with the taxes of "ordinary voters" . At this point I find her more frightening than McCain.

[dugan45]

Hillary began her career as a Republican. As the saying goes, the older we become, the more we revert to our past.

[leehpsl]

Maybe if Barack Obama stopped LYING about Bill Clinton's record this wouldn't be such an issue. To conflate the Clinton record with the Bush/Reagan record is just despicable. Unfortunately he does it all the time.

Further Obama has actually stooped to repeating Republican canards about Social Security. The one about SS being in trouble was invented for Ollie North's Senate race about 20 years ago.

Is Obama running as a Democrat or a Republican? Not sure I can always tell.

[DudeOhio]

Are you saying that SS is just fine and dandy?

[Beachrunner]

As Hillary continues her spectacular and inevitable crash & burn, the real question truly is . . . . What will be left of the Democratic Party? With there be any strength left at all in the summer and fall to fight McCain?

[myskylark]

You don't get it. Everyone knew Hillary Clinton would run for president. Obama decided not to serve his senate term, but to jum into the race. Now there were two historical candidates running at the same time. That's what split the Democrratic Party in two. This campaign has actually been a mild one compared to other primary seasons. But Hillary Clinton is so handy to blame for everything, including Obama's miserable performance at Wednesday's debate.

I think Obama will win the nomination and then lose the general election. And oh what fun you'll all have - blaming the Clinton's (Hillary and Bill) instead of looking to your own stupidity for following Obama, an untried and unqualified candidate.

[SLS9]

Oh pleeeeeez...if anyone is jealous, living vicariously, becoming more virile from association, might it be Senator Edward Kennedy? Put your little notebooks away from a meeting 13 years past and join in today's events. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is the most qualified, breathing, two legged Periodic Table of the Elements alive. People are jealous, envious, hateful, vicious, attacking, distrustful, and WRONG about the Clintons. They will be fabulous in the White House. Because of error, they have learned, bringing this seasoning with their intelligence and training to build our country.

[Dalpine]

Jealous and evious no. Distrustful yes. I can't see the jealousy and envy for an aging politican couple who can't be trusted even with White House furniture.

[BAE349]

You know what SLS9, I am going to say that you are right that Hillary is qualified but I would not say that she is the "most" ....in fact to be fair the three of them are qualified. However, I have a problem with understanding why Hillary has not been able to really formulate her health care bill. If she is as smart as I once thought she was she should have realized that maybe she should go back to the drawing board and try this from a different angle....no, instead she is to stubborn or has done no self reflection long enough over the past 16 years to even think about going back to the drawing board to re-work her plan that she feels so passionate about.

Now, I don't need to tell you that I am a Obama supporter but should Hillary win the nomination I plan to gather my thoughts and rationalize my support for her....BUT right now I am still seeing that she lied unnecesarily about an account of her visit to Bosnia and I personally am having problems with reconciling that.....what else has she lied about?

[presto]

bae - it is a different plan entirely. Have you done no reading at all?

[mgw]

Obama is one lucky guy. How coincidental that every time he gaffs there is some traitorous past Clinton insider who can find something in Hillary's past that was said or done in a worse fashion than Obama. Check your notes again, perhaps you find somewhere there where she had said, "screw them." This is the biggest farce I've ever seen .

Bottom line, if this is so, then we are back to square one -- all politicians are the same. Although, Hillary supporters never thought differently; we knew that with all their flaws, Hillary is the best candidate, the most prepared to be president of the United Sates. It was only you ObamaMights who believed that Obama was a new and different politician.

So now that we've established that they all have disdain for the little-people, and since one of them, "unfortunately," have to be president -- we'll just vote for the one who is more prepared to do that job. Vote for Hillary Clinton!

[marc1antony]

what I take issue with is not her past, as much as her memory, her judgment and her temper...

She can invent things to suit her audience. I was raised where lying IS a big deal - so that was her first strike.

She claims to be for the workers, she was a corporate attorney who worked against unions and she did not disclose this in her padded resume.

She and Bill have made millions off of foreign interests that now hold jobs of American workers.

She publicly endorsed more than once John McCain - another war monger

She is prepare to go to war with Iran, and we already spread thin on two warfronts. Let's see her send Chelsea to the front lines.

She has a bad temper and would set off a nuke because she can't seem to keep herself in check.

thanks, but no thanks... we have lost more than 4000 soldiers. Each day that passes more die, and their blood is on her hands and the hands of those who are in support of this woman.

no more war - no more Hillary

[KGinSanFrancisco]

Thank you, Theda, for your very powerful blog which shines a light into who Hillary Clinton really is behind closed doors, from someone who actually knew her well all these years ago. This is a truthfull account of how she is a manipulator of the suffering low income whites, who wrongly believe in her. This is so more powerful athan the non-story of how Obama misspoke at a SF fundraiser. This is the stuff that the press should be reporting if they were not only interested in tabloid journalism. Thank you for your courage to come forward and speak the truth.

[CindyS]

I certainly hope that if I ever choose to do something important or to serve my country, that my comments from a supposedly closed door meeting from 12 years ago aren't quoted! If we are going to use this standard for all of our political leaders in the future... who the heck would ever want to participate in the process! Theda, I hope you are thinking back to some of your comments and thinking from 12 years ago and noticing that if you have any kind of intellectual curiosity or intellectual rigor, your views would hopefully change. Also, are our political figures now not even allowed to express frustration or any off handed comments without them cropping up years into the future? What if this kind of scrutiny had been placed on Obama 12 years ago? Would he be the media darling he is now??
Obama better hope his meeting attendees don't take good notes... And Theda, you reported on what Hillary said, but what did you say?

[katsushin]

The problem with your logic is that Sen. Clinton has been the one playing this game of parsing words and heaping on guilt by association. She is the one that wants to keep bringing up Sen. Obama's words "from a supposedly closed door meeting." She is the one that keeps bringing up his associations with people she thinks will hurt him. Sen. Clinton's campaign unleashed the republican beast of character assassination, and like the republicans, they shouldn't be too surprised when that beast turns around and bites their collective ass.

[notdogmatic]

Informative, thought provoking post.
Your desire to remember the good side of the Clinton reign is probably widely shared. Made me recall the exstacy I felt when the 1992 election returns were coming in. Now I mostly have a sense of melancholoy and betrayal.

[disteta]

you are awesome! I completely agree. I don't know how the whole world doesn't see her for what she truly is....a liar (don't know how anyone gets past the blatant Bosnia lie) and one who doesn't fulfill campaign promises (jobs in new york). That kills me when we re-elect people who didn't come through in previous campaign promises. Keep the Democratic Party alive - get rid of Hillary Clinton!

[rosal]

This is why her nagatives are so high, and why she has also high ratings on the "not to be trusted".
What a shame. She could've been an example to women of all ages. She has send the feminists to the 1950's.The way she shows to be strong is by lying (Bosnia) The way she brings out in women the anger, the bitternes, and the poor me sydrome is pathetic. Instead of empowering women, bringing out the best in them: The strenght, the I am a capable, decent woman, happy in my own skin. She has brought none of that. But then agian, she is not thinking of women, she only thinks of how she can manipulate others for her own ambitions. The comment of "Screw them" does not surprise me at all.
One day, we will have an honest, strong, happy in her own skin, and very capable, woman candidate. That woman will win in a landslide. The country is ready. Just NOT this woman.

[BAE349]

Rosal, I agree. I have heard so many women and men say that they are not against a woman running for or becoming the President....they just don't believe in Hillary.

At the beginning of this campaign I was leaning toward Hillary mostly because I supported Bill for eight years and still felt that he was a good President even after being embarrassed by the sex scandal. But I also listened to the other candidates' policies and issues that they were addressing during their campaigns.

Hillary had problems in her campaign because she felt it was "inevitable" that she would receive the nomination.......and somewhere she lost sight of actually developing a Plan B should she not be inevitable......which has lead to disharmony in her campaign. Do I think that Hillary is this cold unelectable woman, NO! But she has allowed a "man" who is not in touch with voters dictate how she should present herself to the voters. There has never been any doubt in my mind that Hillary isn't tough....any woman has to be strong to live through what she has.

I realize that poltics is dirty but I do have sense enough to know when I am being lied to unnecessarily...... I CAN'T vote for McCain because I think he wants to continue to be at war. I wish she had not lied about Bosnia.....it signaled to me that she must think voters are intellectually challenged.