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Tobias Barrington Wolff

Tobias Barrington Wolff

Posted: July 21, 2009 02:27 PM

All Hands on Deck in the Prop 8 Litigation


On July 8, our leading national LGBT legal organizations -- Lambda Legal, the ACLU, and the National Center for Lesbian Rights -- filed a motion to intervene with the federal district court that is hearing the constitutional challenge to California's Proposition 8, the case that was begun in May by high-profile lawyers Ted Olson and David Boies. The groups have asked to join as full participants in the lawsuit, representing community organizations PFLAG, Our Family Coalition, and Lavender Seniors of the East Bay. And that is a very good thing.

When the Olson and Boies team first filed their federal lawsuit, advocates and other leading national voices raised some questions about timing and strategy. It was important to talk these questions through. Any high-stakes lawsuit requires a careful weighing of benefits and risks, especially one that might ultimately wind up in the Supreme Court of the United States. But that die has been cast. Now, it is time for an all-hands-on-deck approach to this important effort.

In starting this lawsuit, Ted Olson and David Boies have already helped to change the national conversation surrounding the issue of marriage equality. The mere fact that a high-profile Republican like Olson would place his name behind this fight is an important sign of how far we have come. Many will remember Olson as the lawyer who argued the Bush v. Gore case for George W. Bush and went on to be President Bush's first Solicitor General. The endorsement for marriage equality by such an iconic Republican figure, when combined with support from other Republican voices like Steve Schmidt, John McCain's former campaign manager, can help to move us away from the polarized political terms in which LGBT equality has so often been discussed. David Boies reiterated this message in a recent op-ed in the Wall Street Journal -- one of the most conservative editorial pages in the country -- calling LGBT equality an issue of justice that should transcend party politics. We should recognize the sea change that these efforts represent and capitalize upon them in our public advocacy efforts.

Just as important, we must now maximize our chances for a good outcome in the court challenge to Proposition 8. That is where the expertise and experience of our LGBT legal advocates is key. District Judge Vaughn Walker has made it clear that he wants to develop a full factual record in this case on such issues as the social science evidence surrounding children and LGBT parents, the history of discrimination against LGBT Americans, and that old chestnut of an argument, the purported impact of marriage equality on the relationships of straight couples. Consider the expertise that our legal advocates will bring to the table in this effort.

In the Iowa marriage case, Lambda Legal led a path-breaking effort to rein in the use of junk science and other abuses of expert testimony in litigation involving LGBT families. Iowa's unanimous ruling in favor of marriage equality is a testament to their deep knowledge and strategy.

In California, NCLR's leadership was instrumental in educating the courts about the history and impact of discrimination against LGBT families. Their efforts helped to produce last May's historic marriage equality ruling, permitting an estimated 18,000 couples to marry before Proposition 8 took those rights away.

In Alaska, same-sex couples are now entitled to fully equal benefits from their government employers; in Florida, the discriminatory ban on adoption by gay and lesbian parents has been declared unconstitutional; in Arkansas, a challenge to a discriminatory ban on gay foster parents is now underway -- all because of the leadership of the ACLU, which has systematically educated courts about the data and research demonstrating the equal capacity of LGBT parents to provide loving and nurturing homes for children.

Lambda Legal, NCLR and the ACLU have been participants in every major effort to secure equal treatment for LGBT couples and families in the United States in the last twenty years, including every victory we have achieved. When the groups weighed in with a friend-of-the-court brief in June, urging the district judge to recognize the irrational discrimination that Proposition 8 represents, the Olson-Boies team hailed the decision, praising the "inspiring leadership and legal expertise" that the groups brought to the fight and confirming the need for a "united front." Now that the district court has announced that it will develop a full factual record on the issues in this case, the leadership and expertise of our legal advocates is even more important.

I was one of those voices that raised questions about timing and strategy when the federal lawsuit was filed. I am willing to admit that I may have been wrong, and that the Olson-Boies team may prove to have been visionary. Only time will tell. Our goal right now must be to ensure the best possible outcome for this lawsuit.

We all agree: Proposition 8 is an unconstitutional and discriminatory denial of equal rights, under any legal standard. With the full participation of Lambda Legal, the ACLU, NCLR, and the community organizations they represent, we will present a united front in advancing the compelling evidence and making the case to the federal courts.

Tobias Barrington Wolff is a law professor at the University of Pennsylvania and a visiting professor at Harvard Law School. He co-authored and submitted a friend-of-the-court brief in the federal challenge to Proposition 8 on behalf of Equality California.

 
 
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eyecon
Retired CEO & Quality-Mgmt Consultant
11:55 AM on 07/31/2009
Frankly, I never understood the opposition to the odd couple (Boies & Olson) in the first place. Civil rights have never been won at the ballot. The very nature of civil rights issues, in the interests of a minority, generally precludes them from being satisfactorily resolved by the electorate in the interests of the majority.

We will never succeed in conveying the idea that people can be opposed to same-sex marriage without being proponents of a legal ban. While I have yet to entertain a coherent argument that supports the notion that on couples gay marriage has any effect on any other couple's "traditional" marriage, this issue creates a visceral reaction.

I fear that the People's Veto initiative in Main will succeed. NOM and Focus on the "Family" are spending a fundamentalist fortune on high priced consultants and spinners to stop gays from marrying. For Focus, it is an issue of faith. In contrast, Maggie Gallagher has honed her personality disorder into a solid six-figure income. NOM is a not-for-profit (for profit) enterprise. Their motives are irrelevant. Gay bashing remains an easy sell.
07:25 PM on 07/22/2009
A letter that I sent to EQCA, Lambda Legal, NCLR and the ACLU.

I want to know who elected you to represent me. I do not remember EVER giving you permission to represent me and there was no vote electing your organization as the "go to person" in our civil rights.

A lot of us are tired of organizations like yours deciding what is best for us.

Defeating Prop 22 in 2000 = FAIL!

No on Prop 8 in 2008 = FAIL!

Getting the previous 3 administrations and the current one to grant us federal civil rights = FAIL!

The recent CA Supreme Court decision on Prop 8 = FAIL!

“Prepare to Prevail” statement in California that is urging the LGBT community in California not to go back to the ballot next year to repeal that state’s same-sex marriage ban = FAIL!

First coming out in opposition to the federal challenge mounted by Theodore B. Olson and David Boies then when they see it is going to happen without them try and jump on the bandwagon =
MASSIVE FAIL!

It is time the torch of our fight for equality passes to someone that can get it done. The American Foundation for Equal Rights suit doesn't need or want your lame help. Back away from the litigation and the effort to place same sex marriage back on the ballot in CA in 2010 and stop trying to undermine us to keep your paychecks flowing!
07:13 PM on 07/23/2009
Well, considering that the ACLU, NCLR and Lambda Legal are all legal groups and don't do political campaigns, your attempt to place the losses of the Prop 22 and 8 campaigns squarely on their shoulders is a little baffling.

But while we're on the subject:

Romer v. Evans - WIN! (1996 - said that Colorado couldn't amend its constitution to prevent local governments from passing protections for gay people)

Lawrence v. Texas - WIN! (2003 - overturned sodomy ban in remaining states)

In re Marriage Cases - WIN! (2008 - Oh yeah... the victory that Prop 8 overturned - why were you not paying attention until it was taken away from you?)

Varnum v. Brian - WIN! (2008 - won marriage in Iowa)

Not to mention dozens of smaller victories.

These groups hardly ever lose, and in fact, are behind the biggest victories in the gay rights movement. Skewering them for one loss out of decades of wins is unfair. Their input should be both welcomed and appreciated.
10:54 PM on 07/23/2009
Arguing against the Olson/Bois case is only rational if the case doesn't present the facts correctly/fully.

The Constitution, in conjunction with the scientific fact that homosexuality is a non-disordered sexual orientation, makes all forms of heterosexism unconstitutional. Therefore, a correctly-fashioned case must lead to the demise of DOMA.

If, as some have argued, the justices on the Supreme Court are not yet ready to follow the Constitution, we may end up with a faulty/heterosexist decision that defies the Constitution. If that happens, it would be unfortunate, but the blame would rest with the justices if the case is correctly fashioned.

Therefore, the time is now to uphold the Constitution. The only thing opponents of heterosexism should be doing is supporting efforts to make this happen.
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Romulus
Centrist
06:37 PM on 07/22/2009
IF Olson's case, Perry v. Schwarznegger, were to come before SCOTUS this fall (which it probably won't) how to you all think each of the Justices would vote?
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Romulus
Centrist
04:23 PM on 07/22/2009
If you read every word of Scalia's dissent in the Lawrence case, you will see that contrary to the claim that "Even Antonin Scalia admitted that there is no legal justification for a prohibition on the recognition of same-sex marriage in his Lawrence dissent.", Scalia believes that there are such legal justification and that the SCOTUS ruling in Lawrence is one of the biggest mistakes that the court has ever made.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZD.html
05:31 PM on 07/22/2009
"...you will see that contrary to the claim that 'Even Antonin Scalia admitted that there is no legal justification for a prohibition on the recognition of same-sex marriage in his Lawrence dissent.',

Scalia believes that there are such legal justification and that the SCOTUS ruling in Lawrence is one of the biggest mistakes that the court has ever made."

Contrary is not the correct word. Additionally is. Scalia's homophobia is secondary. It does not change the factuality of my quote.

Admitting that there is no legal justification for the recognition of same-sex marriage due to the Lawrence decision and not liking that fact are two separate things.
05:47 PM on 07/22/2009
I should note that what makes the homophobia secondary is the scientific fact (circa 1956 and consensus as of 1973) that homosexuality is a non-disordered orientation.

if homosexuality were an illness/disorder, then Scalia's objection to the Lawrence reasoning would override the admission that that reasoning makes same-sex marriage available.

The assertion early in the dissent that homosexuality is a sexual behavior "impossible" to distinguish from sexual practices such as bestiality and incest is quackery. Even a virgin has a sexual orientation and there is no requirement to have sexual experience to marry.
05:56 PM on 07/22/2009
I apologize for a severe typo. Here is the corrected sentence:

"Admitting that there is no legal justification for denying the recognition of same-sex marriage due to the Lawrence decision and not liking that fact are two separate things."
01:36 PM on 07/22/2009
Scalia in the Lawrence v. Texas dissent:

"the progression of thought displayed by an earlier passage in the Court’s opinion, which notes the constitutional protections afforded to 'personal decisions relating to marriage, procreation, contraception, family relationships, child rearing, and education,' and then declares that “[p]ersons in a homosexual relationship may seek autonomy for these purposes, just as heterosexual persons do.” Ante, at 13 (emphasis added).

Today’s opinion dismantles the structure of constitutional law that has permitted a distinction to be made between heterosexual and homosexual unions, insofar as formal recognition in marriage is concerned.

If moral disapprobation of homosexual conduct is 'no legitimate state interest' for purposes of proscribing that conduct, ante, at 18; and if, as the Court [asserts], '[w]hen sexuality finds overt expression in intimate conduct with another person, the conduct can be but one element in a personal bond that is more enduring,' ante, at 6; what justification could there possibly be for denying the benefits of marriage to homosexual couples exercising '[t]he liberty protected by the Constitution,' ibid.?

Surely not the encouragement of procreation, since the sterile and the elderly are allowed to marry."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZD.html
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Morcat
01:34 PM on 07/22/2009
The people of California can't vote to do something that violates the Federal Constitution. Human rights are not appropriate for states to decide. It wasn't appropriate for individual states to deal with slavery or segregation or the right of women to vote. Enshrining discrimination in our laws is not a right of the state. DOMA will be struck down.
03:25 PM on 07/22/2009
Federal Courts have ruled same sex marriage is NOT a right. They also ruled DOMA does NOT violate the Federal Constitution.

Prop 8 was entirely within the government's right to define what is and what is not a marriage. That right was upheld in Reynolds V U.S.
04:05 PM on 07/22/2009
Court rulings are secondary. The Constitution is paramount. As it's written, the combination of the 1st and 14th Amendments, in conjunction with the scientific fact that homosexuality is a sexual orientation and not a disorder, makes all forms of heterosexism unconstitutional.

Dred Scott v. Sandford was a ruling. Does that mean, following your logic, that we should follow it?

Gay people are gay. That's a scientific fact. Furthermore, as gay people have equality under the Constitution of the United States, there is no rational basis for any form of heterosexism in our law. The 1st Amendment prohibits theocracy and the 14th Amendment prohibits hierarchical citizenship.

"Marriage is between a man and a woman" is a specious statement because it requires the refusal to acknowledge the fact that homosexuality exists. Because homosexuality exists, marriage is also between two people of the same sex.
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eyecon
Retired CEO & Quality-Mgmt Consultant
11:37 AM on 07/31/2009
"Reynolds" has nothing to do with the issue. The Court ruled that perceived religious obligations are not a criminal defense. Marriage (in this case, polygamy) is incidental, DOMA remains untested.

In Loving, the Court ruled that marriage is a basic human right.
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Romulus
Centrist
01:27 PM on 07/22/2009
I feel that I need to state once again that I am personally in favor of legalizing SSM. But for social reasons, not legal reasons. I don't see how SSM will in any way harm society and, in fact, I believe that it may very well benefit society.

Even so, I find the legal debate to be one of the most compelling and intersting issues of the times and I enjoy debating those legal aspects. This may seem rather cold to those of you whose lives are affected by this and I apologize if my attitude offends anyone. On the other hand, this is a legal debate and it will be won or lost on legal points, not emotional ones. So I feel that it is appropriate for me to discuss those legal points without regard to the emotional impact that rulings may have.
03:58 PM on 07/22/2009
I don't enjoy reckless personal attacks being posted here while my posts in response are deleted.

Being called an "anti-gay" shill is profoundly insulting, and ridiculously inaccurate.
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Romulus
Centrist
05:48 PM on 07/22/2009
Actually, both your posts and mine were deleted.
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Romulus
Centrist
11:05 AM on 07/22/2009
Here's what bothers me about Olson's suit. I've read the entire complaint, Perry v. Scharznegger, which you can download here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/15841006/Perry-v-Schwarzenegger-Complaint.

I can't find the original complaint, Baker v. Nelson, but here is the court ruling: http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/library/documents/BakervNelson.pdf

If you read both, you'll see that there is no substantial differences between the two complaints.

So why does Olson believe that he can file the same basic complaint as Baker and this time the courts will rule differently?
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aftershock
11:27 AM on 07/22/2009
Because they can cite Lawrence now.
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Romulus
Centrist
11:57 AM on 07/22/2009
This is a guess on your part, right? Olson doesn't mention Lawrence in his complaint. I suppose in oral arguments he may do but I have no way of knowing what his legal plan may be.

I think if he is resting his case on Lawrence, he's making a big mistake. I see Lawrence as a rather narrow ruling that States have no compelling interest in regulating private behavior.
11:42 AM on 07/22/2009
It doesn't really matter. It's better to have too many cases that are redundant than to not have enough cases that leave open the possibility of missing one angle or another. The more challenges are brought up, the more likely someone will find a way to break through the ideology to find logic and rational thought prevailing.

It is only a matter of time, and all of these challenges through the courts are really just distraction to give congress the chance to deal with DOMA properly

In the meantime, it is the general public who need to be putting pressure on congress to raise the repeal of DOMA up on congress's priorities list
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Romulus
Centrist
12:38 PM on 07/22/2009
"It doesn't really matter. It's better to have too many cases that are redundant than to not have enough cases that leave open the possibility of missing one angle or another."
I'm not so sure. Legal precedent is awfully hard to overcome. If SCOTUS rules once again that the issue of marriage is not "a substantial federal question" that may set the quest for SSM back decades.

"In the meantime, it is the general public who need to be putting pressure on congress to raise the repeal of DOMA up on congress's priorities list"

I did agree with you at one time but with the filing of Commonwealth of Massachusettes v. HHS, I don't think it matters whether Congress repeals DOMA or not. I'm pretty sure that SCOTUS will declare Section 3 unconstitutional.
10:11 AM on 07/22/2009
Forget HRC, they are useless. It's the Lambda League and ACLU that we need to be supporting and financing, because it will be them who will be doing the most leg work and need the most help to fight these fights. We need to mobilize all of our resources and put them toward California and Maine, and make sure that NY follows through with their legislation
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KidHollywood
08:58 AM on 07/22/2009
AAKAlan is correct.

Mr. Barrington-Wolff;s post really is one sided.

The American Foundation for Equal Rights. Lambda Legal, The National Center for Lesbian Rights and the ACLU LGBT ALL denounced this suit in the beginning and asked others NOT to back it or get on board because of "timing" they think it will move too swiftly. (Cause you know if Gay Marriage becomes legal alot of them are out of jobs) There are many who believe now that one of the main reasons that they want to be involved now is because it will slow down the process.

http://www.back2stonewall.com/?p=6708
01:49 PM on 07/22/2009
(This post is speculative and rhetorical. Do not accuse me of firmly saying any of the following is happening, or is a major factor.)

Imagine what would happen to their funding if the rights gay people already are afforded by the Constitution are upheld? Is there a conflict of interest here? After all, as long as gay people are in a bad place legally, these groups can claim to be in the position to help. There is already debate about the relevance of the NAACP and Affirmative Action programs. One may think that protection of the bureaucracy and the resulting salaries/access/prestige may be a factor.

"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy."
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AAKAlan
Web Developer, photographer, artist, old fart.
05:54 AM on 07/22/2009
This article doesn't tell the whole story.

The whole story is that these same groups refused to get onboard, publicly demanded that Boise and Olson drop their suit (the wrong time.... etc.) and generally obfuscated their efforts whenever possible.

Now that the suit looks serious, now that Boise and Olson have proven themselves sincere, all the dontation-funded groups want to jump on the wagon lest they get left behind.

Boise and Olson have said "no thanks" to the groups that bashed the hell out of them when they announced their intentions. They have also pointed out that bringing all these groups on board will do nothing more than delay the case and make it much more expensive to pursue.

Our gay legal and advocacy groups have been, at best, uneven in their success. HRC comes immediately to mind - they cave to our opposition often and vocally. Prop 8 was a study in bad campaign design.

Let's let these guys do their own thing. They're two of the best in the nation, neither Gay, but totally committed to our rights.
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Romulus
Centrist
11:05 PM on 07/21/2009
I think, Professer Wolff, that your first instincts were correct. I don't think there is a good case here to over rule the CSC ruling. In that ruling, the CSC stated that the ONLY thing Prop 8 did was to define the word marriage. Then the CSC went on to state that California was still required to afford all the rights and responsibilities to domestic partnerships that it affords to marriage. I know that has not been the case in the past with domestic partnerships but with the ruling in May 2008 and this ruling, California is required to do so.

If same sex unions are afforded exactly the same rights and responsibilities as heterosexual marriage, it's going to be awfully difficult to argue that gays and lesbians are not being treated equally.
12:55 AM on 07/22/2009
"If same sex unions are afforded exactly the same rights and responsibilities as heterosexual marriage, it's going to be awfully difficult to argue that gays and lesbians are not being treated equally."

I think it's easy to distinguish between the fountains:

http://www.literacyrules.com/Black%20History/JimCrowPic3.jpg

You can replace "white" with "marriage" and "colored" with "civil union".

The fact is that marriage is a secular institution, legally, in the USA. Atheists can and do marry. There is no religion-involving litmus test to determine marriage eligibility at courthouses. Our law is secular due to the 1st Amendment and the 14th Amendment provides exactly the same rights to gay citizens and are provided to hetero citizens. That includes the right to marry. Gay people are gay so they have same-sex marriages.
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Romulus
Centrist
10:13 AM on 07/22/2009
You're using the black experience as a metaphor. Courts don't rule on metaphors, they rule on actual treatment. If there were signs over water fountains that said "Heterosexual" and "Homosexual" then you'd have a valid point. If bus drives told gays to actually sit in the back of the bus, then you'd have a point.

You DO have a point when landlords refuse to rent to gay couples or employers refuse to hire gay applicants. Courts rule on actual damages, not metaphorical ones.

My post to Professor Wolff is in regards to the legal merits of the Olson case, not the moral aspects. Personaly, I'm in favor of legalizing SSM but the courts don't care about my personal moral beliefs, nor do they care about yours. You think that you are arguing legally when you continue to cite the 1st and the 14th but you neglect the fact that SCOTUS has already ruled in Baker v. Nelson that the 1st, 14th, and every aspect of the Constitution do not apply to same-sex relationships. Basically SCOTUS has said that this is a States' Rights issue and not a federal issue. You need to find a compelling LEGAL argument as to WHY denial of SSN violates the 14th. You can't just keep saying the 14th, the 14th, and expect to win your case.
01:25 AM on 07/22/2009
You entirely neglect the federal tax issue.
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Romulus
Centrist
09:36 AM on 07/22/2009
That's a different case. The suit Professir Wolff is talking about is in regards to California's law, not federal law.
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slowtono
11:02 PM on 07/21/2009
The court does not have the right to over turn the people and California voted, the people spoke. A sexual is not a right. Oral manipulation is not a right. Sodomy is not a right. Natural selection choose that all higher organisms would be divided into a male and female gender, you didn't pick it, the court didn't rule on it, nature decided. A mountain is a mountain not the ocean, a bird a bird, and cats are not dogs. Sex is an action that has two joined glandular areas that may produce a new life form. Thus two become one. Nature chose that. Mankind can surgically can change this but like silicon it's not natural.
01:21 AM on 07/22/2009
As stated below....so, your sexuality is only what you do with your genitals, and has nothing to do with love and compassion and devotion in the building of desire for someone you wish to pair bond with? By your definition, we must all be animas, who mount another, do our thing, then leave, with no feelings of affection or devotion to our partners. You really truly have just obliterated the whole "Man has dominion over the earth and all it's creatures" argument, by reducing humanity down to the level of cows or horses who only breed and don't mate.

Sad, your argument really does make the world sound like a cold and distant place if pair bonding has nothing to do with love and commitment and affection, and only involves sex for the purpose of procreation
01:27 AM on 07/22/2009
Of COURSE the courts can overturn a Law that violates the Constitution.

And homosexuality is common in Nature. Get over it.
10:47 AM on 07/22/2009
Courts have ruled that defining marriage as "between a man and a woman" does NOT violate the US Constitution.

Marriage is "between a man and a woman". Get over it.
08:19 PM on 07/21/2009
Excellent Article. Olsen and Boise are a dream team and with the true support of LGBT legal advocates the chances of winning will be greater. So much work will be required to collect the evidence needed to show that the arguments made against granting full equality to homosexuals is based upon irrational fears alone and, your right, the LGBT legal advocates can really help in this regard.

I understand it is risky given the predilection of our U.S. Supreme Court to mistreat the Constitution and settled legal principals when Homosexuality is the issue. Nevertheless, the Constitution is clear on this matter and we deserve equality now and not 25 years or more years from now.

Hats off to Olsen and Boise....two straight guys doing the right thing for their Gay brothers and sisters.
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12:44 AM on 07/23/2009
Horray! Happy days are on the horizon!
06:40 PM on 07/21/2009
This fight is bigger than anyone realizes. This fight is not just about Republican vs Democrat, Liberal vs conservative, left vs Right. This fight is about ideology (see Organized Religion) vs logic and rational thought (science). All, every single one of the ideological arguments used to oppose gay marriage and gay rights has been shot down when put up against the standard of logic and reason. The question then becomes, will these legal teams be able to fight and claw their way through the institutionalized ideology that has had a grip on courts for so long? Can We The People show the courts, and in fact everyone who adheres blindly to irrational illogical ideology that they are

Just

Plain

Wrong.
08:51 PM on 07/21/2009
Yeah it's an argument between religion and science. On one side there is the scientific fact that the homo sapiens species has evolved into two genders, both of which are required for successful reproduction. On the other side is the religious argument that feelings and belief can trump the reality that is between every humans legs.
12:23 AM on 07/22/2009
So successful reproduction is the only valid reason for pair bonding?? Do you have children? Do you only engage in sexual activity with the hopes of producing a child every time? What about the feelings that led you to want to have sex with your partner before the sex acts took place? Do those not count? Is there no romance and affection between a male and female in a relationship outside of the act of procreation? Is there not a bond of love and compassion and respect that leads one to desire sex with another person? Yes, sexuality IS far more than what is between one's legs. If that were not true, then every sterile or impotent man or woman would be forbidden to have sex. And as a disabled man, who is both impotent and sterile, and has been since birth, I can assure you from personal experience that my thoughts, feelings and desires have no conneciton to my ability or inability to procreate
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SelenicMagick
Old, grouchy, toothless, sub-human bridge-dweller
12:46 AM on 07/22/2009
It is ALSO a scientific fact that sperm have been *created* from stem cells... which makes ONE of those genders completely irrelevant as far as procreation goes.

While you may believe that you are correct in saying that there is "the scientific fact" with regards to humans only come in 2 genders the reality is that it is scientific fact (including peer reviewed studies) that homo sapiens come in SIX different genders.
09:15 PM on 07/21/2009
Even Antonin Scalia admitted that there is no legal justification for a prohibition on the recognition of same-sex marriage in his Lawrence dissent.

Huh?

Yes. If one ignores the initial false argument that homosexuality isn't a sexual orientation and is impossible to differentiate from various sexual practices such as incest and bestiality and gets to the section where he discussed the O'Connor concurrence's Equal Protection claim, one will see that he considered the effect of recognizing that homosexuality is a class (not a sexual practice but an orientation) and that given Lawrence's decriminalization and the 14th Amendment, there is no justification aside from "moral opprobrium" for the prohibition. The only one he could think of was procreation and he admitted that it fails as a test.

Therefore, the critical issue is to require the court to recognize the scientific fact that homosexuality is a non-disordered sexual orientation. This has been known fact since 1956 (Dr. Hooker) and a matter of consensus since 1973. No longer will any of the justices be able to pretend that homosexuality is a sexual behavior rather than an orientation. Given that even virgins have a sexual orientation and there is no requirement that a person have sexual experience to get married, this point is all that matters.
12:27 AM on 07/22/2009
The problem is that far too many, mostly those in the Religious believers camp believe that sexual behavior and sexuality are the same thing. That we are nothing more than animals who seek out a partner, mount them and leave, purely for the purpose of sexual reproduction. They have no desire to talk about sexuality in terms of emotions and feelings, drives and desires, only behaviors, and that belief stems from their ideology, hence my remarks. Thankfully, the courts are learning that ideology should not dictate over science and rational thinkking
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SUIGENEROUSLA
01:54 AM on 07/22/2009
You're absolutely right. It's already happened. We're just waiting for the court to get the right case and catch up.

Scalia knows you can't discriminate on the basis of a characteristic if you can't outlaw it.